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  1. #1
    Join Date
    21st July 2017
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    25

    Estes 24 & 29 mm BP motors (E-F) Availability

    I dragged my old Estes Saturn V kit out of the attic recently and decided to build it even though I haven't built a rocket since mid 1990's. I did not really have much intention in launching it at first since I have not been in a club since that time and don't have ready access to a field to launch it but I remembered that the last time I was in Hobby Lobby I saw that Estes now makes larger BP motors (E - F) and decided to look at what they had that might work in this rocket. I am going to install the cast capsule and fin/faring set that Sirus sells and I will use stronger centering rings with a 29mm mounting tube so that I can launch it with different motors that are larger than a D12. At Hobby Lobby the selection of motors was poor. Most everything there had long delays but I bought a 29mm E16-8 because it was on sell for 8.99 for a package of 2. I probably would not use it in this rocket because of the long delay but when I look at the BP E & F motors on the Estes website almost all are showing as sold out. Are they discontinuing these motors? I was wanting to buy locally since I don't want to pay a hazard materials shipment!

    thanks,
    Mike


  2. #2
    Join Date
    15th October 2016
    Location
    Huntsville AL
    Posts
    2,147
    If you do go back to hobby Lobby, look at the tags on the wall to see if they've got shorter delays that just weren't in stock at the moment.

    Word of caution on those 29mm Blackpowder E's/F's. They have more impulse and longer burn time, but their thrust is actually weaker than the D12.
    A D12 reaches peak 30N at 1/4 sec while the E16/F15 takes 1/2 sec to reach their peak of 25N. Now, if Hobby Lobby has a Star Orbiter on the wall, that will fly on your E16-8s like a champ! Very fun rocket for a very low price from what I've read.

    "I'm at least 70% confident about whatever I say (90% of the time)"- college me

    NAR 101195
    Level 1: Big SAM, 9/10/16

  3. #3
    Join Date
    3rd February 2017
    Location
    Eagan, MN
    Posts
    110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I dragged my old Estes Saturn V kit out of the attic recently and decided to build it even though I haven't built a rocket since mid 1990's. I did not really have much intention in launching it at first since I have not been in a club since that time and don't have ready access to a field to launch it but I remembered that the last time I was in Hobby Lobby I saw that Estes now makes larger BP motors (E - F) and decided to look at what they had that might work in this rocket. I am going to install the cast capsule and fin/faring set that Sirus sells and I will use stronger centering rings with a 29mm mounting tube so that I can launch it with different motors that are larger than a D12. At Hobby Lobby the selection of motors was poor. Most everything there had long delays but I bought a 29mm E16-8 because it was on sell for 8.99 for a package of 2. I probably would not use it in this rocket because of the long delay but when I look at the BP E & F motors on the Estes website almost all are showing as sold out. Are they discontinuing these motors? I was wanting to buy locally since I don't want to pay a hazard materials shipment!

    thanks,
    Mike

    I exchanged emails with Estes customer service about a month ago. They were rather brief but got the impression they were aware of the shortages. I was told it would be spring before they produced Big E and F motors again. Unfortunately the HLs around the Twin Cities don't carry a very good selection of these motors.
    NAR #103633. I fly primarily LPR/E2X however I have just started to fly MPR.
    Unfortunately, I do most of my flying on a small field.
    I attend Tripoli launches when my schedule allows.
    I currently have approximately 125 Estes, Space X, Quest and MPC model rockets.
    I guess I am addicted...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    19th February 2017
    Location
    The world, probably
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I dragged my old Estes Saturn V kit out of the attic recently and decided to build it even though I haven't built a rocket since mid 1990's. I did not really have much intention in launching it at first since I have not been in a club since that time and don't have ready access to a field to launch it but I remembered that the last time I was in Hobby Lobby I saw that Estes now makes larger BP motors (E - F) and decided to look at what they had that might work in this rocket. I am going to install the cast capsule and fin/faring set that Sirus sells and I will use stronger centering rings with a 29mm mounting tube so that I can launch it with different motors that are larger than a D12. At Hobby Lobby the selection of motors was poor. Most everything there had long delays but I bought a 29mm E16-8 because it was on sell for 8.99 for a package of 2. I probably would not use it in this rocket because of the long delay but when I look at the BP E & F motors on the Estes website almost all are showing as sold out. Are they discontinuing these motors? I was wanting to buy locally since I don't want to pay a hazard materials shipment!

    thanks,
    Mike
    Another option is AeroTech single use motors. They will require a beefy launch controller compared to blackpowder, but they're considerably more powerful and cost a similar amount per-impulse- maybe a dollar or two more per-flight of the same impulse. However, all of them up to the low-end F's ship no HAZMAT and they tend to be faster-burning, good for heavy rockets- plus, they're just visually and audibly awesome! My avatar is a screen grab of a 3" dia. Saturn IB on an AeroTech E15-4W - if your Saturn V is under about 14oz that motor would be my pick.
    NAR #104043, Jr L1 - 3/18/18
    www.crmrc.org

    Director of Impressive Titles, ArdIU Flight Computer Project:
    lithosphererocketry at gmail dot com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    22nd January 2009
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,318
    Upgrading an Estes Saturn V to 29mm is ok; I'm sure you'll find a thread or two around here somewhere for that particular mod. BUT, like nytrunner said, the thrust profile of the Estes 29mm motors would make for a very "interesting" and probably fatal flight. FWIW the latest bring-back of the Saturn had two recommended motors: E12-4 and E30-4.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    21st July 2017
    Posts
    25
    I decided to go with a 29mm tube just for flexibility since with that with no glued in thrust ring I can fly just about any size motor in the 24mm - 29mm range with adapter if needed. I may use a composite E motor. I still have sets of AT 29, 38 & 54 mm re-loadable cases from back when I was flying in the 1990's but they are too much for this rocket and unfortunately I don't have any 24mm cases for an E motor. I did not know that the BP E & F motors were slower off of the pad that a D12. I did not want to fly the rocket on that since The only time I saw one of these fly on one it barely made it up high enough to deploy a chute safely and my rocket will be heaver since I am using the Moldin' Oldies capsule and fin/fairings.

    Mike

  7. #7
    Join Date
    19th February 2017
    Location
    The world, probably
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    662
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I decided to go with a 29mm tube just for flexibility since with that with no glued in thrust ring I can fly just about any size motor in the 24mm - 29mm range with adapter if needed. I may use a composite E motor. I still have sets of AT 29, 38 & 54 mm re-loadable cases from back when I was flying in the 1990's but they are too much for this rocket and unfortunately I don't have any 24mm cases for an E motor. I did not know that the BP E & F motors were slower off of the pad that a D12. I did not want to fly the rocket on that since The only time I saw one of these fly on one it barely made it up high enough to deploy a chute safely and my rocket will be heaver since I am using the Moldin' Oldies capsule and fin/fairings.

    Mike
    Do you have the hobbyline 29/40-120 case? There are a couple E loads for that that would work...
    NAR #104043, Jr L1 - 3/18/18
    www.crmrc.org

    Director of Impressive Titles, ArdIU Flight Computer Project:
    lithosphererocketry at gmail dot com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    21st July 2017
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by LithosphereRocketry View Post
    Do you have the hobbyline 29/40-120 case? There are a couple E loads for that that would work...
    These are what I have for 29mm. I also have a 24mm single use Aerotech E15-5 White Lightning but it is old and I don't know if I can trust it.






  9. #9
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
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    3,740
    Quote Originally Posted by LithosphereRocketry View Post
    Do you have the hobbyline 29/40-120 case? There are a couple E loads for that that would work...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    These are what I have for 29mm.
    As Litho mentioned, that top casing is great for e16, e23.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    21st September 2017
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I dragged my old Estes Saturn V kit out of the attic recently and decided to build it even though I haven't built a rocket since mid 1990's. I did not really have much intention in launching it at first since I have not been in a club since that time and don't have ready access to a field to launch it but I remembered that the last time I was in Hobby Lobby I saw that Estes now makes larger BP motors (E - F) and decided to look at what they had that might work in this rocket.

    Estes does make E's in 24mm sizes, and both E's and F's in 29mm.
    https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/engines


    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I am going to install the cast capsule and fin/faring set that Sirus sells and I will use stronger centering rings with a 29mm mounting tube so that I can launch it with different motors that are larger than a D12.
    D12 is way too low-impulse for this rocket.

    You can download the .rkt file and model the flights on your own with OpenRocket, or just trust Estes's own recommendation to fly on at least E12 or E30 motors.
    https://www.rocketreviews.com/unknow...100-scale.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    At Hobby Lobby the selection of motors was poor. Most everything there had long delays but I bought a 29mm E16-8 because it was on sell for 8.99 for a package of 2. I probably would not use it in this rocket because of the long delay but when I look at the BP E & F motors on the Estes website almost all are showing as sold out. Are they discontinuing these motors?
    Hobby Lobby's rocket supply availability varies tremendously from store to store. Some carry all of the Estes engine lineup, most just 18mm engines, some none at all. Each store is managing its inventory independently, so you get whatever local store's manager believes he can sell.

    You can always get Estes engines at better-than Estes' online store prices from one of the following reputable vendors:
    https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop
    https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?str_s=e16

    Sirius is showing E16-4 (optimum delay) sold out, but E16-6 is in stock at $20.69, and Hobbylinc at $18.39 (but out of stock).


    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    I was wanting to buy locally since I don't want to pay a hazard materials shipment!
    That may be tricky, unless you find a really good local rocket hobby store.

    Alternatively, consider flying RMS reload motors in your 29/40-120 case.
    E16W, E23T, F37W, F62T, G53FJ, G64W, and G76G all ship without HazMat fees, and are cheaper per motor than Estes !

    The last three (G's) will lift your Saturn 5 north of 1,000 feet.
    Should be fun!

    a
    __
    Radrocketeers.org NAR L2

  11. #11
    Join Date
    14th March 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,358
    Hobby Lobby only sells motors that can be used in rockets that they sell. Therefore, certain delays are not available at their stores even if they sell the same size motor with a different delay.
    Zeus-cat
    NAR# 92125 L1
    Total Impulse for 2018: 491.6 N/s Flights: 10
    2017: 1/2A:0, A:2, B:1, C:2, D:2, E:1, F:1, G: I have NEVER launched a G motor, H:0, I:1

  12. #12
    Join Date
    21st July 2017
    Posts
    25
    Thanks for the info. I will probably try the E16W or E23T re-loads.

    Mike

  13. #13
    Join Date
    3rd October 2016
    Posts
    233

    Simulations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrappe View Post
    Thanks for the info. I will probably try the E16W or E23T re-loads.

    Mike
    Just out of curiosity I ran some engine simulations on Rocsim for the OOP Estes Saturn V.

    Motor Max Alt.
    AT E16W-4 503'
    AT E23T-5 482'
    AT E30T-4(24mm SU) 648'
    Estes E16-4 449'
    Estes F15-4 729'

    And just for the hell of it:
    AT G64W-8 1781'

    As expected, launch guide data for the two Estes BP motors shows stable flight reached after 92" and 110" of travel, respectively. The composites get it up to speed much more quickly. Also ran a sim for your E16-8 motor. It ejected the chutes at 218' and 107 fps. So it was successful, but your chutes might get overstressed ( or shredded). Since your build will be a little heavier, expect somewhat lower apogees.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Georgetown, Texas
    Posts
    632
    Quote Originally Posted by LithosphereRocketry View Post
    Another option is AeroTech single use motors.
    This. The AT E15-4 is ideal for the Estes Saturn V model, and requires no reengineering of the kit.

    James
    ____________________

    James Duffy
    www.spacemonkeymodels.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,470
    Note that the Aerotech E15 is actually identical to the Aerotech E20 motor, simply packed and labelled differently.

    E15 is either single pack or 3 per pack/bag.

    E20 is two per plastic blister pack.

    They are identically great motors.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffy View Post
    This. The AT E15-4 is ideal for the Estes Saturn V model, and requires no reengineering of the kit.

    James

  16. #16
    Join Date
    14th July 2015
    Location
    Randolph, NJ
    Posts
    3,546
    Quote Originally Posted by shreadvector View Post
    Note that the Aerotech E15 is actually identical to the Aerotech E20 motor, simply packed and labelled differently.
    How or why is that the case?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
    Posts
    3,740
    +1, I show 5Ns and a second of vurntime difference?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Posts
    3,406
    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffy View Post
    This. The AT E15-4 is ideal for the Estes Saturn V model, and requires no reengineering of the kit.

    James
    Quote Originally Posted by neil_w View Post
    How or why is that the case?
    Sure looks like it. See the NAR motor testing info. Make sure you look at the detail pdfs by clicking on the motor type in the listing.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,470
    Your source data is from before the redesign (when they went to the molded casing with the molded in thrust ring).

    If they tried to do this now, under the new certification rules, they would need to redesignate the motor with the correct average thrust.

    There are many simulation motor databases with massively incorrect motor data. The Econojets were redesigned years ago (2007?). This leads TARC teams to 'simulate' flights and get garbage results. Simulation database has motor total impulse WAY higher than the actual current production motor. Editing the motor data file is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhbarr View Post
    +1, I show 5Ns and a second of vurntime difference?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,470
    E15 motors existed long ago. Then there was a redesign.

    Aerotech wanted to pack some E motors in the plastic blister packs to hang on pegs at hobby shops as direct drop in replacements for Estes motors (with igniters that would hopefully work with Estes systems). When the casing was redesigned with the molded in thrust ring and the total impulse dropped, the average thrust went up. The specially labelled motors were correctly labelled E20 and sold in twin packs to hang on pegs in hobby shops.

    E15 motors were made identically, but without the fancy painted on E20 labelling. They sold them in 3 packs in a bag on the Valuerockets website at a very reasonable low price. They came with Copperheads until those were discontinued.



    Quote Originally Posted by neil_w View Post
    How or why is that the case?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    14th July 2015
    Location
    Randolph, NJ
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    3,546
    Quote Originally Posted by shreadvector View Post
    Your source data is from before the redesign (when they went to the molded casing with the molded in thrust ring).
    [...]
    There are many simulation motor databases with massively incorrect motor data. The Econojets were redesigned years ago (2007?). This leads TARC teams to 'simulate' flights and get garbage results. Simulation database has motor total impulse WAY higher than the actual current production motor. Editing the motor data file is required.
    This is quite interesting.

    I went to the Aerotech site. On their Master Motor Matrix they do indeed list the two motors as having essentially identical specs: 35 N-s total impulse, 34.9 N peak thrust, 1.6 s duration. Oddly, propellant weight is slightly different. That data in this document matches what you're saying, which also is in sync with the latest NAR testing info, which is from 2009.

    In Aerotech's own Rocksim motor file, though, the data for the E15 is from 2000, and gives 39.8 N-s total impulse, 28.8 N peak thrust, and a 2.64 s burn duration. I guess that's the "old" one.

    Even Thrustcurve.org has the old E15 data.

    This seems like a lousy state of affairs.


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