Cj's builds MadCow Nike-Apache 2-stage

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woferry said:
Also, unless my understanding is wrong, it's also a modification to the motor, meaning it's only allowed to fly at Tripoli Research (EX) launches, not NAR or non-Research TRA launches, right? LDRS this year, for example, won't have any EX days.
Click to expand...

Yup, You'll have to join Tripoli to fly HEI at a community launch. If you do the channelized version then you could fly NAR. Kurt
 
blackjack2564 said:
Chris Short is working on a supplier for those connectors & will let me know when he succeeds. It's some type of Molex, but you must crimp wires on pins,insert into box....... or buy ready made as I do.
Click to expand...

Looks like a clone of the Molex KK 254, maybe a KF2510. You can get housings and pre-crimped wires for the KK 254 from distributors like Digikey and for the KF2510 from sources like Ebay and Aliexpress.

Winston recently posted a link to a cable manufacturing service where you can get them made to your specs for a low price, if you need at least 100:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...k)-cable-making-service&p=1754564#post1754564

If you need help with Molex part numbers, let me know.

Reinhard
 
blackjack2564 said:
Not following, Ya mean inside airframe, ontop of motor?
Remember wires must reach motor & there is no room on tiny 29 HEI module for threaded insert.
The 29 is only one ya can't put an eyebolt[or anything else on].
Hole in center is for filling cavity with high temp epoxy.

29 is on right.

View attachment 337221

If you have a way around that, I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

Bulk plate bolted to the top of the motor, glued to body tube. You’ve got two screws on there, use them to attach onto the bulk head. Drill what ever holes to need in the bulk plate, including those needed to run wires. The bolts only needs to hold the weigh during chute deployment. You’ll probably want a seperate attachment for the recovery cord. And your going to need a long socket extension to put it together.
 
Ummm.....No.
I won't use my ignition terminals for anything else.
There have been a couple inquires about making the threaded rods longer, for that same purpose.
Won't do it, disaster waiting to happens on too many levels.

Friction fit is fine for me.

You could design one to do that,just not these.
 
New build posts Sustainer av-bay & NC mods Jan 29 2018

Finished bay & enlarged space in payload for recovery gear by moving a couple items .

Short cut to there:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-MC-Nike-Apache-2-stage&p=1751306#post1751306

You guys like the way I try to keep the build in one place and supply links back when I add to it?
Or rather just build as it goes with all the questions & noise in-between .
I started the "reserved' thing couple years ago & in this build added links to updated posts in the reserved spaces, to get ya there instantly....is it working out OK...opinions ?

I figured it would be easier to reference in future, if all the build posts were in order on 1 page, rather than searching through many pages to find the next one.
 
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Jim this way is better in my opinion. I’ve followed your build threads over the years and there is usually a lot of side bars in between the actual build process. This way much less cutting to the chase!
 
timbucktoo said:
Jim this way is better in my opinion. I’ve followed your build threads over the years and there is usually a lot of side bars in between the actual build process. This way much less cutting to the chase!
Click to expand...
+1 Love what you are doing Jim.
 
Love the organization of this thread. The link idea is great. Having the reserved posts really helps keep the build posts together and organized. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. Very helpful info!


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
I have to say that I agree with the others. The reserved posts that keep the build in one place is a great idea. Placing the link in the narratives you added inline helps greatly as well. I generally look at the reserved posts first, then hit the "first unread" button to get to the narrative.
i see many things that I will be doing with mine when I get to it. Thanks for sharing Jim!!!
 
Ok, The nosecone with the "Franken screws", you going to secure the NC shroud to the coupler with screws? I've done that before for an NC mounted tracker in a 38mm MD rocket and used some buttonhead screws. Sometimes
the coupler won't hold the threads so I epoxy some PEM nuts on the inside. Esthetically less pleasing with screws hanging out but it's more "tolerable" with buttonhead screws and heck, a good place to stash the tracker.

Oh, people are freaking nuts if they want to put any undue stress on an HEI forward closure. After laying out an investment in one, I certainly would prefer to treat it nicely for long life and not have it deal with motor retention or recovery
stresses. A good tape job should do it. Kurt

I like your instructions all in one place and the reserving of spaces puzzled me at first but now I see the light. One is going to want to read the whole thread anyways to be able to pick up on any useful suggestions from the peanut
gallery (if there are any!)
 
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Hopefully I'm not being too noisy, but I finally pulled out the old PML kit so I could see if the transition might work for my build. I think I might like it...ever so slightly under-flush, but the coupler fits well. On the other hand, I am really digging Charlie's version!

Cheers,
Michael

IMG_4671 (2).jpg

IMG_4670 (2).jpg

IMG_4672 (2).jpg
 
iqsy59 said:
Hopefully I'm not being too noisy, but I finally pulled out the old PML kit so I could see if the transition might work for my build. I think I might like it...ever so slightly under-flush, but the coupler fits well. On the other hand, I am really digging Charlie's version!

Cheers,
Michael
Click to expand...

Mike not noisy at all. I welcome any & all comments when it comes to building rockets!
I wasn't aware PML made a Nike-Apache. How long ago was that.
Glad we lit a fire under you to finish it.
Shame all that foam kinda ixnay's using I/S for av-bay, maybe you dig some foam out to utilize the space.

Inject Glue in Booster & fin fillets at same time: Feb 4
Short cut to post.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-MC-Nike-Apache-2-stage&p=1751307#post1751307


In-between working on 3/4 Nike, found some time to work on this. Have finished priming & spot fill on sustainer.
Will post pics when finish painted & color added.
White with red.
 
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blackjack2564 said:
Mike not noisy at all. I welcome any & all comments when it comes to building rockets!
I wasn't aware PML made a Nike-Apache. How long ago was that.
Glad we lit a fire under you to finish it.
Shame all that foam kinda ixnay's using I/S for av-bay, maybe you dig some foam out to utilize the space.
Click to expand...

They did a single run in 1994. One-piece molded fin cans, which seem brittle but are beautiful. Phenolic tubes, which are also brittle and will require reinforcement. That may be tricky given the fin cans! It is an interesting kit.

I too have the MC kit and am contemplating using the PML transition for that build. I was thinking that using Ravens, the 38 mm coupler foamed into the interstage would be adequate for the avionics.

public-missiles-pml-nike-apache-high_1_03f21262bb1d93947bba9559ed7a40c5.jpg
 
I think I have an idea for retaining the sustainer. I typically fly with CTI Motors.

If one was to use a 5 Grain motor in a 6 Grain casing, a Spacer would be required above the motor to take up the extra space.


If one was to place 38mm hard point above the motor tube, and modify a 29mm spacer such that it had a place to attach the hard point, it might just work. This might be as simple as some Epoxy and a Nut.


I'm pretty sure this mod would require Tripoli EX rules rather than NAR but it might just solve the problem.
 
Any mod to a stock motor case or parts is going to require flight under the TRA Research protocols. NAR folks will need to join TRA unless they channelize the sustainer and run a staging igniter up from the bottom to a stock motor. In that case, the
motor is not modified in any way and the motor (at least) would pass muster under NAR rules. Kurt
 
Finished Booster & I/S coupler construction.
Part 2 contains all the hole drilling/fitting, for rail buttons & I/S shear-pins, vents, etc.
short cut to take you there:

PART 2 https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-MC-Nike-Apache-2-stage&p=1751307#post1751307

Once again [addressing posts above] simplest way to retain motor is friction fit or method shown in Post 25:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-MC-Nike-Apache-2-stage&p=1759002#post1759002

Now the boring stuff for awhile...prepping for & doing paint. I opted for gloss white on airframes, red on sustainer fincan & NC.
Metallic silver for I/S. Undecided on booster fins.

Then mounting all electronics & recovery gear.
Finally simming motors and staging delays for flights & motor choices.
 
Given the clearance issues, for those of us without access to HEI, would sustainer ignition from the booster be an option? Retain the sustainer with shear pin(s) to prevent drag sep, ignite from below, use the pressurization of the motor to pop off the booster?

It would sacrifice some performance / flexibility (can’t coast without the booster), but would make the sustainer electronics much simpler and obviate the need for fancy wire routing or any breakaway wire connections (no big deal if the igniter wire stays with the booster, it’s done it’s job).
 
That would work.
There are also other solutions fairly simple to use.

Jim Jarvis uses copper foil tape on side of motor & solders connections at top & bottom to altimeter & igniter wires.
Similar to this:
https://www.cableorganizer.com/p/taperwire-flat-speaker-cable/

His motor with said tape, it's thin enough to slide easy into motor tube.
Showing 2 sets, he uses one set for separation charge & other for ignition of sustainer.

View attachment 339791

You could also glue a small conduit on outside of airframe alongside of fin,[12 in section] under fillet run to top of airframe below coupler/av-bay, drill small hole through airframe for connection to pyro 3 motor ignition. All would barely be noticeable if done right.

at least with these 2 solutions you can add coast time between stages.

I do my separation charge from below. However with this project, I think sustainer will drag separate easily, due to large difference in booster diam. & sustainer diam. should be good "drag" on booster for separation.
Will find out won't we.

Has the second batch of these started to arrive guys?

HEI closures are just about ready to go out to the first batch folks, probably next week.
 
I'm in the middle of building mine and I simply cut a section out of both centering rings wide enough to glue two cocktail straws along the motor tube. Gives me plenty of room for any wiring I want to use between the igniter and altimeter. For motor retention I cut the top off an E motor hook, notched the rear centering ring just enough to fit over the hook, and glued the hook to the motor tube above the rear centering ring and opposite the straws. Used a bit of fiberglass cloth, but in retrospect that was overkill. Holds the motor securely and easily fits inside the 38mm coupler from the booster. I've used this kind of retention in the past and if I'm really paranoid I'll put a zip tie between the "Estes" hook and the motor nozzle. I'll be posting photos in a separate thread when I get farther along.
 
Does the I/S coupler go on over a match wire coming out of straws, running into motor?
Please dp post some pics of this and how you do your I/S.
 
inside.jpgstraws.jpg

The first picture is taken with the IS coupler in place, but not yet attached to the booster. You can see the igniter to the left and the clip retainer to the right. An Aerotech 29mm case is in place. You can see that the wires aren't getting pinched in any way. When I drop in the coupler you get the "thunk" of fiberglass hitting fiberglass, no indication of hitting/scraping the igniter wires. I had to slightly bend the Estes clip to clear the coupler.

The second picture is trying to show the two straws in place without the coupler. The igniter actually has both wires in a single straw in this picture, so plenty of room for redundant igniters if you feel the need. The straws stop just flush with the top of the centering ring, so there is some space for the wires to move out of the way of the coupler when it's inserted. I have my motor mount flush with the end of the airframe.
 
You are NOT hijacking the thread.... I welcome ALL solutions to the issues at hand.
I'm pretty certain everyone else does too.

Please anyone with another way to solve any issues [building I/S coupler or motor mount in sustainer] please post them here for posterity. I'm sure this will be a good reference thread for future builders of this Nike-Apache kit.
Over 400 of them were sold, I'm sure as more get delivered there will be some questions & other solutions .

That's a pretty slick way Dugway is doing things. Simple...me likey!
 
blackjack2564 said:
You are NOT hijacking the thread.... I welcome ALL solutions to the issues at hand.
I'm pretty certain everyone else does too...
Click to expand...

Heck yeah! Particularly on issues that I haven't gotten into yet, like 2-stage. When I search a topic I like to read one really good thread rather than bounce around 37 different threads.
 
Well, potential disaster has struck. I just assembled the complete stack for the first time since gluing up the I/S, and the transition doesn't sit cleanly against the top of the booster airframe. I'm not sure what is out of alignment, I pushed the centering ring in with the coupler and the coupler is flush against the centering ring. If it was the top of the airframe that was out of square, the gap wouldn't rotate when I rotated the transition, but it does. The gap is about 1/16". I'm not sure if my whole transition is warped, or what. When I assemble the whole stack on a level surface and rotate the booster, the tip of the sustainer orbits a circle that is probably 1" across. Am I screwed at this point?

I could "adjust" the top of the airframe so that there was no gap in one specific alignment, but that wouldn't cure the underlying crookedness.
 
Are you saying there is just a small gap between booster and I/S ?
Or when assembled the sustainer is cocked due to crooked I/S?

Pic would help.

I had an issue with Booster to I/S and it turned out the cut needed squaring up on airframe.

I used the ole Estes method to do it.....wrap paper around airframe...square edges with overlap...tape & slide to edge of tube. Sand till it was correct.
 
Dugway said:
View attachment 339831View attachment 339830

The first picture is taken with the IS coupler in place, but not yet attached to the booster. You can see the igniter to the left and the clip retainer to the right. An Aerotech 29mm case is in place. You can see that the wires aren't getting pinched in any way. When I drop in the coupler you get the "thunk" of fiberglass hitting fiberglass, no indication of hitting/scraping the igniter wires. I had to slightly bend the Estes clip to clear the coupler.

The second picture is trying to show the two straws in place without the coupler. The igniter actually has both wires in a single straw in this picture, so plenty of room for redundant igniters if you feel the need. The straws stop just flush with the top of the centering ring, so there is some space for the wires to move out of the way of the coupler when it's inserted. I have my motor mount flush with the end of the airframe.
Click to expand...

I'll be doggone. So there is room enough in the IS coupler to accommodate that hook AND the upper stage igniter? Wow. Thanks for the pictures as
mine is sitting a box out in the garage. Nice to have options if HEI is not achieveable. Kurt
 

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