Cj's builds MadCow Nike-Apache 2-stage

mpitfield said:

I'm not sure what retainer you were trying to fit, but assuming it was not a GLR Slimline retainer, do you think the GLR would fit if it was slightly recessed?

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I got the measurements from GLR (I used a 38 slimline in my Double Shot), no go. It will fit in the tube, but the coupler won't fit. I'm thinking of some kind of MD retainer, but AT doesn't offer a threaded forward closure for 29mm hardware so that may be out. Just gonna have to use good 'ol masking tape...

blackjack2564 said:

Step 2 I/S coupler continued

Place a heavy "Bead" of epoxy around line on coupler on side of line towards lids. NOT ABOVE LINE.
When curing we want glue to sag around interior creating an internal fillet. This happens because we set I/S upside down & let gravity work.
Due this fairly quickly so glue doesn't settle on coupler before inserting.

View attachment 336906



Carefully insert assembly INTO shroud, hold it facing down so glue settles.
Be careful not to hit sides and wipe glue off coupler.
Be sure lids/BP's seat all the way into shroud, if you put too much glue on joint where 4in coupler goes [like I did] it takes a couple of pushes to get glue displaced and "seat" the assembly.
View attachment 336907



Light, thin coat of epoxy on side wall of shroud.

View attachment 336908




Insert 4in. coupler, twist a bit to evenly coat epoxy.
View attachment 336909




Should look like this.
Clean any epoxy off places it does not belong!

View attachment 336910





Leave upside down for several hours so glue settles around 38coupler/shroud and forms internal fillet.
That finishes the glue up of I/S.
View attachment 336911
Yeah..that's a sneak peek at MM assembly for the Smoke/booster section.

Hope my process of assembly helps other attempting conversion to 2-stage.
I would love to see other methods, some of you may have come up with...especially if they simplify the process.

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So one needs to buy two body tube bulkheads and two coupler bulkheads to laminate for the eBay on the booster?

I told mad cow I was in no hurry and to service other customers so my kit is probably not going to come for quite a while.
That's okay by me for now. Kurt

blackjack2564 said:

Dang there were a boatload of these things sold.
Where are some other builds, pull your heads out of the sand, 350 of them went out.
Someone must be building, beside me. Sure was a lot going on during BF sale, thought there would be more interest.
Seem like Forum attendance is waning?
Any one else getting that feeling.
Less & less build viewing.

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I wasn't one of the lucky 350 to grab one of these (I did get an adventurer to get my feet wet with a FG rocket build) but still tagging along for the great tips and tricks you provide. Will definitely be re-reading this thread when I'm ready to build a 2 stage rocket, and I'll bet there are more like me who are quietly following and really appreciate the massive effort you put in to document this and previous builds.

I was part of the second wave. I don't expect to see mine for quite a while. At the same time, it will be my first FG kit, so I may put it off for a while after it is in my hands, or at best build the booster into a Smoke & leave the Apache for later.
Still following your build. Always learn things from other peoples builds.

Spent a week putzing around with paint, taping & decal placement. Still have to install recovery & all electronics, but decided to take advantage of such good weather.
I went with color scheme I found from search, there are so many to chose from. Paints I used.

Rustoleum 2x primer [white] base coat for all.
Rust. 2x apple red gloss fincan & fins...nose cone. [perfect match with decals]
Rust. metallic silver indoor/outdoor for I/S coupler.
Rust. 2x gloss white finish coat for all.
Stickershock vinyl Nike-Apache set. https://stickershock23.com/product/madcow-nike-apache/



Pics show proper placement & orientation for all.
I did bugger the 'Thiokol" should have been centered. NC should be metallic silver, but I liked red!

AUG 28 2018 update:

Interstage/Coupler electronics & setup for Nike booster.

Missleworks Pet 2 timer .....stage separation charge .4 grams BP
Stratologger CF Apogee/Main 1.75 grams BP
2- 9 volt battery one on each side of sled.
36 inch Topflight / 20 ft. tubular nylon 9/16
9 in sq. kevlar/nomex chute protector

2 Switch wire out 3/16 vent hole.

3- vent holes 3/16 around I/S and in fincan
3-[2-256] nylon screw shear pins in I/S to fincan.

AUG 28 2018 update

Head End ignition Module Assembly:

I remove pellet from top of CTI motors when I need one for an Aero-Tech sustainer motor, & just use a regular igniter to start the CTI motor on ground.[normal single stage flight]

Pellet is slightly smaller in diameter than motor core. wrap a bit of tape around it , for snug press fit.
Match wire will go right through center hole
Parts for HED ignition. [exterior view]



Interior contacts for e-match wire.
extremely tight fit & aggravating to use pliers.
Front closure ring.



E-match is bent like this, so inside bates grain, it fires up into BP pellet on top of grain.
Insert wire through pellet hole.



Before hooking ANY match wire to HED....first short the output posts.
[threaded ring is upside down in pic]



Pull match wire through grain/pellet.
Thread forward seal disc & O-ring over wire...THEN attach match wires to posts on HED.



Ready to insert into motor case.



Finished HED motor.
Ready for wire to 3rd pyro sustainer ignition channel. I short that until final hook up to Av-bay.



That's all folks..hope you Likey!

Another....

I know I'll need this to show HEI use....

Yeeeuuup

for continuity...

reserved
do see post 35

blackjack2564 said:

Thanks for the support gentlemen.
Yes you must add 2 av-bay lids to make I/S into electronics bay, do NOT come with kit.
Don't think any motor retainers will work with sustainer.
Anybody find one that does....let the group know here.

More done last night. See: post #5

Jan 26 2018 Fincan Booster

That was a glue/fillet marathon, I did 16 fillets in 30 minutes! 2 complete rockets.
Tacked 4 fins in and vend band on av-bay!
Save time...click here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-MC-Nike-Apache-2-stage&p=1751303#post1751303

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Me thinks the sustainer motor is going to have to be taped in? Head end ignition looks enticing for a 29mm motor but if the motor is going to be taped, a channel/conduit for ignition wires coming from "above" in the sustainer I think is possible?
I use question marks as I don't have the "collection" of parts yet. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Head end ignition looks enticing for a 29mm motor but if the motor is going to be taped, a channel/conduit for ignition wires coming from "above" in the sustainer I think is possible?
. Kurt

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No need for any channel/conduit when using a HEI module, at least so far for us.
I have the same exact situation in my 1/3 scale Arcus sustainer.
Being a 38 airframe with 29 motor mount.

You lay the fincan horizontal when prepping.
Put small amount of tension on motor ignition wire to keep it at bottom side of tube.
All shock cord, drogue, nomex gets slid in along side of wire going to HEI module, so nothing interfere with it.
After sustainer motor fires, you only worry about gear getting tangled, if done like I mentioned, it won't.

blackjack2564 said:

No need for any channel/conduit when using a HEI module, at least so far for us.
I have the same exact situation in my 1/3 scale Arcus sustainer.
Being a 38 airframe with 29 motor mount.

You lay the fincan horizontal when prepping.
Put small amount of tension on motor ignition wire to keep it at bottom side of tube.
All shock cord, drogue, nomex gets slid in along side of wire going to HEI module, so nothing interfere with it.
After sustainer motor fires, you only worry about gear getting tangled, if done like I mentioned, it won't.

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Another key to doing it this way is that the apogee event disconnects the igniter from the power source. This is a key safety feature in the event of an unstable or suboptimal flight.

blackjack2564 said:

No need for any channel/conduit when using a HEI module, at least so far for us.
I have the same exact situation in my 1/3 scale Arcus sustainer.
Being a 38 airframe with 29 motor mount.

You lay the fincan horizontal when prepping.
Put small amount of tension on motor ignition wire to keep it at bottom side of tube.
All shock cord, drogue, nomex gets slid in along side of wire going to HEI module, so nothing interfere with it.
After sustainer motor fires, you only worry about gear getting tangled, if done like I mentioned, it won't.

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I understand except some folks might be considering a channel given their electronics situation and no HEI hardware. For HEI, do you have a "break away" connection from the ignition wire coming down from the ebay that allows for the apogee charge to
separate the ignition wire (since it has already done its job) and allow the apogee stuff (harness, drogue or streamer) to deploy out fully? Kurt

ksaves2 said:

I understand except some folks might be considering a channel given their electronics situation and no HEI hardware. For HEI, do you have a "break away" connection from the ignition wire coming down from the ebay that allows for the apogee charge to
separate the ignition wire (since it has already done its job) and allow the apogee stuff (harness, drogue or streamer) to deploy out fully? Kurt

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Here is conduit I used for my Arcus sustainer. Channel is so small I had to "oval" shape it by squeezing slightly,with pliers. so match wire would fit. It would NOT go into round shape & barely fit into the "oval". Note that I had to Notch the CR just to get it in. Once again it would not fit into airframe till I "ovaled" it. For reference the tube is same size as a ball point pen refill. The 1/8in. Kevlar looks huge next to conduit...lol






Look at end view. No space between tube and wall for coupler.
When igniter wire came through conduit and was bent around motor to go inside. Coupler rubbed on it. Each time it would drag separate/seperation charge fired, the igniter wire would get pulled out of motor by friction of coupler...hang in mid air & of course when fired, did nothing to start motor.

After 3 attempts of various solutions[non worked] THAT'S when we decided to take the simple route and design Head End Ignition that really worked.

For break-away connection I use these bare wire slip fits in snugly, yet pulls out easily. shown on 3in. 2-stage bay. For this [Apache]I must go direct to pyro connection on altimeter, and provide strain relief inside of bay. There is no room on 38mm bay for terminal blocks. I got mine from Adept, they been using them for years to connect parachute charges to altimeters & for staging. [Where I got the idea] Chris Short is working on a supplier for those connectors & will let me know when he succeeds. It's some type of Molex, but you must crimp wires on pins,insert into box....... or buy ready made as I do.
No matter how you run your pyro wire, you still need a "break-away" connection of some type.
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/CAB2cart.htm

Bare wire exaggerated in photo so you could see how it fits. When actually used, trim wire, just long enough to fit.



As you can see, I've already done all the needed research, successfully flown a same sized model, all one needs to do is follow my example to get a proven flier.
I know there must be other methods, [hopefully those will share] but for now I know this method works.:smile:

When I get to the staging part of build, I intended to post all this along with more detail on how HEI gets loaded. Ya got me jumping the gun...lol

Creeeeeeeipes sake!, I have some of those if I didn't toss them out when I had the flood in the basement. They were plugs for CPU fans on some computer hardware I was working on. The old computers got sent to recyclers and I hope I didn't
toss these bare plugs in the garbage. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Creeeeeeeipes sake!, I have some of those if I didn't toss them out when I had the flood in the basement. They were plugs for CPU fans on some computer hardware I was working on. The old computers got sent to recyclers and I hope I didn't
toss these bare plugs in the garbage. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Kurt

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Kurt there are other methods too!

timbucktoo said:

Kurt there are other methods too!

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Thanks Tim, Sure but if I got 'em and can find 'em I'd be set. Kurt

patelldp said:

Another key to doing it this way is that the apogee event disconnects the igniter from the power source. This is a key safety feature in the event of an unstable or suboptimal flight.

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+1
I should have mentioned in the event of a bad event, the pyro channel will easily disconnect at apogee, thus rendering motor safe.

blackjack2564 said:

+1
I should have mentioned in the event of a bad event, the pyro channel will easily disconnect at apogee, thus rendering motor safe.

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Much to learn with staging there is

Thank YOU Jim! As mpitfield says above, There is MUCH to learn! I think I will probably install a conduit of some sort during construction, but fly the rockets individually until I grow a pair large enough to attempt staging.

blackjack2564 said:

Don't think any motor retainers will work with sustainer.
Anybody find one that does....let the group know here.

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Surely a “bulk plate” minimum diameter retainer would be the best method, easy to alter to fit your HEI.

SpaceManMat said:

Surely a “bulk plate” minimum diameter retainer would be the best method, easy to alter to fit your HEI.

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Not following, Ya mean inside airframe, ontop of motor?
Remember wires must reach motor & there is no room on tiny 29 HEI module for threaded insert.
The 29 is only one ya can't put an eyebolt[or anything else on].
Hole in center is for filling cavity with high temp epoxy.

29 is on right.



If you have a way around that, I'm all ears.

blackjack2564 said:

Not following, Ya mean inside airframe, ontop of motor?
Remember wires must reach motor & there is no room on tiny 29 HEI module for threaded insert.
The 29 is only one ya can't put an eyebolt[or anything else on].
Hole in center is for filling cavity with high temp epoxy.

29 is on right.


If you have a way around that, I'm all ears.

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Hehehehe, I say. Yeah if one has a 54mm sustainer with a 38mm motor a chunk of all-thread where the eyebolt is supposed to go but no way that will work with the 29mm. I haven't done taping but it's intuitive. As long as the harness and the small drogue isn't a tight pack and the apogee charge is sized right, shouldn't be a problem. A very oversized charge and both the motor and the drogue could be ejected I'd guess. Kurt

So forgive me for asking as I have been out of the loop but that 29 HEI looks interesting. How do I go about getting one? I assume the delay grain goes in the trash correct? This looks like the kind of thing you better buy while the getting is good.


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Viperfixr said:

CJ, I cannot access the thread, don't know why. I am definitely interested in getting a HEI module in 29mm for AT, and maybe 38 & 54mm as well. Contact Charlie O?

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I too am interested in the HEI ignition option. My Apache has not net arrived, but I just got my notification from MadDog that it has shipped, and I'm ready to get started.

grouch said:

So forgive me for asking as I have been out of the loop but that 29 HEI looks interesting. How do I go about getting one? I assume the delay grain goes in the trash correct? This looks like the kind of thing you better buy while the getting is good.

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Correct

Right Wing Wacko said:

I too am interested in the HEI ignition option. My Apache has not net arrived, but I just got my notification from MadDog that it has shipped, and I'm ready to get started.

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Charlie has been swamped with requests for these, the first batch is about ready to go out. It's a long tedious, precise process to make them. I will let every one know if & when another run will be made.
Please bear in mind 2-stages using HEI are not for the faint of heart,actually any type of sustainer ignition is inherently dangerous & must be approached with extreme caution.
I will go over how to install & fly them safely when the build gets to that point.

The process/check list is lengthly, & i don't want to do it twice.:wink:

blackjack2564 said:

Please bear in mind 2-stages using HEI are not for the faint of heart

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Also, unless my understanding is wrong, it's also a modification to the motor, meaning it's only allowed to fly at Tripoli Research (EX) launches, not NAR or non-Research TRA launches, right? LDRS this year, for example, won't have any EX days.