Last Jedi Movie Discussion Thread: SPOILERS Enter At Your Own Risk

I saw this movie last night and though I think there are some strong points, I have some major issues with it. I will only discuss a few of them, as I want to see who else picks up on some of the other major issues with this chapter.

Gravity in space? The whole bombs dropping on the Dreadnaught ship, this requires gravity.

What happened to lesson 3? We see Luke's lessons with Rey and One and Two are covered, what ever happened to three.

Laura Dern. Need not say anything else about this, other than horrible casting choice.

Why couldn't Snoke's ship just speed up? Are we to believe that this ship can not speed up to the rebel ship?

If you can look out the bridge of the rebel ship and see the transports escaping even though they are cloaked, could you not do the same from the First Order ship bridge?

RocketGeekInFL said:

What happened to lesson 3? We see Luke's lessons with Rey and One and Two are covered, what ever happened to three.

Click to expand...

I suspect that Lesson #3 is to be revealed in the next movie. Also, note that Yoda did not complete his training of Luke until the midpoint of this film (oops, there's a spoiler!).

The Last Jedi is a wonderful film, and has a emotional resonance that far surpasses anything else in the Star Wars canon.

The visual depiction of Admiral Holdo's Kobayashi Maru solution was perhaps the most stunningly beautiful thing I've ever seen on screen.

James

Saw it yesterday and probably would give it a 5 on a scale of 1 -10. Disappointed in Luke and his hesitation to do anything - until the end. The casino plot seemed un-nessarily in its detail and confusing. Thought there would be better answers about Rey. But I will go to the next one for sure.

I enjoyed this film greatly, although I have to say it really didn't grab hold of me until about midway through. After it ended I actually had trouble speaking for a while, because I got choked up, although I'm not sure exactly which part of it did that to me (maybe a sum total of many things, most of them involving Luke).

As always, I try to suspend disbelief with regard to the "science", so most of the questions don't weigh upon me while watching. The two things that caught me while watching were:

1) If Holdo's solution worked so well, why didn't they just do that all the time? They could sacrifice any ship (or a large missile) and apparently cause near infinite destruction.
2) How did Rey get back onto the Falcon at the end?

And for the record: I liked the porgs.

RocketGeekInFL said:

Gravity in space? The whole bombs dropping on the Dreadnaught ship, this requires gravity.

...


Why couldn't Snoke's ship just speed up? Are we to believe that this ship can not speed up to the rebel ship?

If you can look out the bridge of the rebel ship and see the transports escaping even though they are cloaked, could you not do the same from the First Order ship bridge?

Click to expand...

I was thinking about this one as well, but it's not a mood killer. Heck, what if they weren't "released" and just had magnetic accelerators or even carrier-catapult launchers to slide em out? Even the colloquialism "Drop them" would remain when operating in a 0G environment.


Yes, we are to believe that the command ship couldn't speed up to catch it. It's friggin massive! And it flies by the same principles that let X-wings and Tie fighters make perfect Aero maneuvers IN SPACE.


The transports were really far away, and the Empire (or its offshoots) have always missed little things because they're focused on capital ships (Size matters complex comes back to bight them in the plasteel butt. Do they learn nothing from two death stars, starkiller base, AND a dreadnought now??)


Analysis can be fun sometimes, but Star Wars is best viewed through the eyes of your inner 7 year-old. Now if you'll excuse me, I and my lightsaber will be in my cardboard deathstar.

neil_w said:

I enjoyed this film greatly, although I have to say it really didn't grab hold of me until about midway through. After it ended I actually had trouble speaking for a while, because I got choked up, although I'm not sure exactly which part of it did that to me (maybe a sum total of many things, most of them involving Luke).

As always, I try to suspend disbelief with regard to the "science", so most of the questions don't weigh upon me while watching. The two things that caught me while watching were:

1) If Holdo's solution worked so well, why didn't they just do that all the time? They could sacrifice any ship (or a large missile) and apparently cause near infinite destruction.
2) How did Rey get back onto the Falcon at the end?

And for the record: I liked the porgs.

Click to expand...

Rey escaped in a shuttle, this was stated by someone to Kylo Ren. I'd imagine she caught up with the MF, but yes, even my wife was asking that. A very short scene could have tied that end up much better than it was.

Flyfalcons said:

Rey escaped in a shuttle, this was stated by someone to Kylo Ren.

Click to expand...

Absconded with Snoke's private shuttle while Ren was taking his nap.


I'm watching it again tomorrow night with friends (1st time was solo so I could get the feel of it). There are a few things I want to take a closer look at.

What I was surprised by was that there were surprisingly no proper lightsaber duels in this installment. (flashback doesn't count)
It's an interesting changeup. You can make a Star Wars movie without fitting in an obligatory saber fight. (although fighting others with sabers is cool too as seen in Rogue 1 and snoke's chamber)

Am watching discussion of the new Star Wars movie Google Plus and on the Starship Modeler web forum.
As you know, movies, and TV, are a thing I won't be watching because of some health things therefore I will never have a firsthand observation of the situation.

This which a Starship Modeler member posted sounds from what I've seen on the web to be a 500 point bullseye.
Of course not true about every person who ever sees the movie, but, yeah, I have encountered the type of personality that refers to.

"So, what makes this film so polarizing? Points of disgust seem to run the gamut, but perhaps the underlying factor can be traced back to expectations borne out of wild theories stoked by fan sites and YouTube channels.

After being purchased by Disney, Lucasfilm in 2014 clarified that previous tie-in novels and comics that made up the Expanded Universe were not considered canon. As fans no longer could look to that material for clues to what'd happen in The Last Jedi, they turned to dissecting previous films and new trailers like they were the Zapruder film the moment they posted.

And some theories — about Rey's parents or the origins of Snoke — became so ingrained in fan consciousness that when they didn't play out, many fans seem to feel like they were cheated out of something."

Click to expand...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...theories-led-last-jedi-disappointment-1068718

I like sci-fi but am not a dedicated fan of anything and am mostly of the, "Huh, that looks pretty cool." level of commitment.
And don't know much about anything beyond the 2 big Star-something franchises and a few novels up to during the 1990s.
Though TV and movies are sensory overload I can get away with some lower intensity than those content on YouTube and did skim through a couple of videos like those mentioned in article, maybe even one of the three they mention.

modeltrains said:

...wild theories stoked by fan sites and YouTube channels.

Click to expand...

I can never wrap my head around how folks can invest so much time and emotional energy into plying their own internal fantasy onto an established fiction property that they have zero creative control or stake in.

Oh well, we have rockets, they have fan theories and *shudder* fan-fiction.


When they do have their theories crushed, I'm just happy to quote a certain jedi "Amazing.......Everything you just said, is wrong"

I saw it on Thursday night, opening. And yes, there was a bunch of people dressed up. We got a free "collector card set"

gravity: I would have assumed "specific gravity" or that the generated "artificial gravity" of the ship would extend outwards (beyond the hull) to a certain degree. or that the bombs were pushed. I thought it odd that the bombers were slow, seemingly too slow.. And that Po was allowed to approach the ship at first. Seems to me, that they (the empire) have a "shoot first" mentality, and they seem hell-bent on obliterating any and all rebels..

Laura Dern... so that's what she's been doing all these years. trying to remember where / in what I last saw her in..

Good point about Snoke's ship.. And why couldn't they just send out waves & waves of fighters?! death by a thousand stings?! Unless the rebels' 'escape flight path' was not linear, as we would think, but absolutely erratic, like a fly, and that the larger ship / fleet aren't as maneuverable, and are therefore able to stay 'just outta range'

the casino scene was neat, but seemed a little too 'wild west'. what no guards? no dress code? no apparently security to swiftly deal with 'outcasts'? and how did they manage to land get as close as they did? surely they would have been tailed as soon as they broke atmosphere..

Del torro's character.. Was that 'his' ship he 'stole'? was he plated there, waiting for them? will he make a return?

The coolest aspect, I think, of the movie, was that the whole film spanned, what.. 4 days?!

dr wogz said:

Del torro's character.. Was that 'his' ship he 'stole'? was he plated there, waiting for them? will he make a return?

Click to expand...

Perhaps all of his comments about the arms dealers supporting both sides in the struggle was a bit of foreshadowing? If so, then I wouldn't be surprised if he took the First Order cash in order to purchase weapons that will arm the Rebellion in the next film.

dr wogz said:

The coolest aspect, I think, of the movie, was that the whole film spanned, what.. 4 days?!

Click to expand...

Heck, both this movie and preceding film seem to cover a span of less than a week!

James

I like Star Wars, but I’m not an all-in committed Star Wars nerd. I’m not into the expanded universe and I don’t know all the technical specs of everything by heart. Having qualified that, here are a few responses:

Regarding the question about why don’t they sacrifice ships all the time:
Kamikazes didn’t win the war for Japan. It’s a massive waste or resources. This was a final act of deparation. Also, E=MC^2. The rebel cruiser was massive. In a previous movie (Rogue One?) a few smaller ships were jumping to light speed when a Star Destroyer came out of light speed directly in front of them. The smaller ships destroyed themselves colliding with the destroyer’s shields. That massive cruiser jumping to light speed tore the Empire ships a new hole really well.

And that incredible shot of the aftermath that seems to be on screen forever and yet not long enough has absolutely no sound. You could have heard a pin drop in our theater for the duration of it.

Regarding the gravity and the bombs: I’ve seen this complaint a few places. There’s gravity on the bomber, as can be seen when the crewmember falls, and so does the trigger, between the bomb racks. All you have to do is get the bombs moving in the right direction with the ship’s gravity, and once they pass into space they’ll keep moving in that direction unless something else moves them or gets in their way (like an enemy ship that goes kerblooie).

Now about that bomber scene: That was an obvious throwback to the old B-17/B-24/B-29 bombing runs in WWII including the formation flying, gun turrets, and fighter cover. Many Star Wars ship windshields are modelled after the B-29 (the Falcon’s, Tie Fighters, small jedi fighters in the prequels, etc). When I saw that scene it made sense to me that they’d do an old fashioned WWII bombing run in one of the movies. HOWEVER The bombers moved soooooo…. sloooooowwwww… They were easy for the Empire to pick off. In a world of fast moving ships and specifically the Tie Bombers from the asteroid scene in Empire Strikes Back, those slow moving bombers didn’t seem to fit in.

I had no problem with Laura Dern or the character she played. I’m not sure what issue other people have with her.

Regarding the slow speed chase: Maybe the Empire ships could have sped up. If they did, couldn’t the rebel ships just speed up too to stay out of their range? The Empire knew they’d run out of fuel eventually and they’d pick them off then. Which they did to all but the cruiser.

Regarding the visibility of the rebel shuttles escaping to the planet: They were cloaked by the cruiser (which was explained in some of the dialogue) and were not seen until Del Toro's character tipped them off.

Nytrunner said:

Analysis can be fun sometimes, but Star Wars is best viewed through the eyes of your inner 7 year-old. Now if you'll excuse me, I and my lightsaber will be in my cardboard deathstar.

Click to expand...

There's an old Star Wars filming story. While filming a New Hope, they were shooting the scene after the trash compactor scene. Mark Hammill pointed out to Harrison Ford that their hair should be wet. Ford patted Hammill on the shoulder and said, "it ain't that kind of movie, kid."

I think people get too wrapped around the axle and are so tied up in the details they forget to be entertained and have fun. When you go to a concert you don't focus on every little note and how it fits in with all the other little notes. You let the music wash over you.

There's stories about Star Trek conventions where fans will ask the actors something like "in season 4, episode 12, you used an X-34FN blaster for [task A] when that model is CLEARLY supposed to be for [task B]. WHY IS THAT?" and the actor's response is something akin to "that's what the prop department handed me."

There were some amazing scenes. Awesome visuals. Good acting. Great "Star Wars" type lines including "let the past die" and "we don't win by killing what we hate..."

Exactimator said:

And that incredible shot of the aftermath that seems to be on screen forever and yet not long enough has absolutely no sound. You could have heard a pin drop in our theater for the duration of it.

Click to expand...

That was a beautiful piece of cinematography. The effect in the theater was exactly the same when I saw it: not a popcorn crunch, not a slurp, not a child in distress, just dead silence. Something about the dramatic tension and pacing built up perfectly to that moment (and not a single bizarre clap either).

At first I was wondering if they tried to induce a "no sound in space" effect, but then I remembered this is Star Wars. There's always sound in space!

And I realized that this was probably a split-microsecond screen-capture of the indescribable carnage created when two Massive Particles (simplified model of the Raddus and Supremacy lol) collided at hyperlight (>relativistic) velocity. The ships were obliterated before the crew knew they were dead.


As far as massive particles go, look up the size of a Nebulon-B frigate, compare its onscreen size to the Raddus (some sort of refit Mon-Cal cruiser), and you can begin to put numbers to that collision energy equation!

I think the slow bombers were the only WTF for me, and perhaps arming all the bombs and having them sit there. I would expect one would want to arm bombs as they are dropped, not while in the bay. The gravity I assumed was either ship gravity pulling them down, then inertia, or some sort of linear acceleration. Perhaps the mass gravity from the Dreadnaught was big enough to pull them down?

Am I the only one that assumed Kylo Ren was lying about Rey's parents? I just figured he was messing with her head to get her to join him ruling the universe etc.. Either way, I don't care that much. I was sort of expecting to have him say he's her brother, then the "noooooo" moment...

I agree that these are best viewed as your inner child and not get too hung up on the physics violations. I go to these to be entertained, and from that perspective, the new SW movies have been good. Far better than episodes 1-3. Particularly now that my kids are old enough to enjoy them. As for the "moichendising" as Spaceballs would put it, it's not new. Did we forget the Ewoks? I like the Porgs better, particularly the couple scenes with Chewy. A laugh without being too in your face or basing the plot around them.

As for the fan theories, meh. The only one I heard about and thought would be interesting was the idea that Jar-Jar is Snoke. That would have almost made him bearable.

ttabbal said:

Am I the only one that assumed Kylo Ren was lying about Rey's parents? I just figured he was messing with her head to get her to join him ruling the universe etc.. Either way, I don't care that much. I was sort of expecting to have him say he's her brother, then the "noooooo" moment...

I agree that these are best viewed as your inner child and not get too hung up on the physics violations. I go to these to be entertained, and from that perspective, the new SW movies have been good. Far better than episodes 1-3. Particularly now that my kids are old enough to enjoy them. As for the "moichendising" as Spaceballs would put it, it's not new. Did we forget the Ewoks? I like the Porgs better, particularly the couple scenes with Chewy. A laugh without being too in your face or basing the plot around them.

Click to expand...

I haven't ruled out some lineage surprise for the 9th movie Special kudos to Rey for getting through her 2nd movie without losing a limb!
As for Ren, we may get an actual balancing of the force here since he made the mistake of killing his master BEfore guaranteeing that he actually had an apprentice.

Holding out hopes for a newly built lightsaber and an epic fight in a couple years.


I have a soft spot for Phantom Menace since I watched it as an actual 7-year-old! Oops, just dated myself there.

I thought the idea of really slow bombers attacking big ships was a bit goofy, but the visuals were cool and isn't that what this movie is all about? Also, it once again emphasized that sacrifice is necessary to defeat evil. Not a single bomber or its crew survived

Laura Dern was OK, but she has a long neck and the outfit really emphasized that. Kind of made her look like a giraffe.

I enjoyed it, and that's what counts for me.

Nytrunner said:

Special kudos to Rey for getting through her 2nd movie without losing a limb!

Click to expand...

Ha ha ha, yes indeed! :lol:

Holding out hopes for a newly built lightsaber and an epic fight in a couple years.

Click to expand...

Ha ha, maybe? :cool2:

I have a soft spot for Phantom Menace

Click to expand...

Ha, no. :no:

One thing did bug me now that I remember it. Why did Laura Dern's character have to stay behind to pilot the ship? She wasn't doing anything until she decided to turn the cruiser around and ram the enemy ships. She was literally just sitting there on the bridge watching the transports leave the cruiser. If she was just going to sit there they could have just tied a rope around the ship's wheel or something and let her leave with the others.

Zeus-cat said:

Why did Laura Dern's character have to stay behind to pilot the ship?

Click to expand...

Because of Joseph Campbell and his work on mythology, which serves as an unofficial guidebook for the "Star Wars" series. Death and loss are central to the power of the story.

James

James Duffy said:

Because of Joseph Campbell and work on mythology, which serves as an unofficial guidebook for the "Star Wars" series. Death and loss are central to the power of the story.

James

Click to expand...

I made the same point earlier about death and loss, but my question about why was really about what was she supposed to be doing? When they show her alone on the ship she is literally doing nothing. She could have been sitting there in her bathrobe, feet up on the console, reading the Sunday comics and chuckling at Ziggy's misadventures for all that matters. At least have her doing something if she HAD to stay behind.

Zeus-cat said:

Laura Dern was OK, but she has a long neck and the outfit really emphasized that. Kind of made her look like a giraffe

Click to expand...

Oh. Yeah. Now that you mention it, I noticed that too.

On another separate note: When I was young there was a t-shirt with a pic of a hawk swooping down, talons out, inches away from grabbing a mouse. The mouse was giving the hawk the finger, with the words “THE LAST GREAT ACT OF DEFIANCE.” It seemed to me in this movie there’s several scenes where, if Star Wars had profanity in it, there would be middle fingers.

Zeus-cat said:

I made the same point earlier about death and loss, but my question about why was really about what was she supposed to be doing? When they show her alone on the ship she is literally doing nothing. She could have been sitting there in her bathrobe, feet up on the console, reading the Sunday comics and chuckling at Ziggy's misadventures for all that matters. At least have her doing something if she HAD to stay behind.

Click to expand...

Before DJ sold out the smaller transports, the plan was for the Raddus to make a final hyperspace jump and draw off the fleet. I'm guessing she'd be the one to make that call.

That's my logic at any rate. The real answer is likely "narrative causality"

ttabbal said:

Am I the only one that assumed Kylo Ren was lying about Rey's parents? I just figured he was messing with her head to get her to join him ruling the universe etc.. Either way, I don't care that much. I was sort of expecting to have him say he's her brother, then the "noooooo" moment...

Click to expand...

I thought he might be lying. They leave that open ended. Only Kylo's word and no proof of anything. Although Rey seemed to know it and was just finally starting to accept it. I, too, am waiting for the next one to see if there's more.

ttabbal said:

As for the fan theories, meh. The only one I heard about and thought would be interesting was the idea that Jar-Jar is Snoke. That would have almost made him bearable.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure anything would make Jar Jar more tolerable. If there was ever a turd in the Star Wars punch bowl, it's Jar Jar.

In the rough, there are sometimes diamonds

Monsters out dere, leakin in here, all sinkin an no power? WHEN Are YOUsa
TINKin' wesa in trouble!?

Click to expand...

Best reaction to the usual frustrating jedi stoicism ever

Nytrunner said:

Before DJ sold out the smaller transports, the plan was for the Raddus to make a final hyperspace jump and draw off the fleet. I'm guessing she'd be the one to make that call.

That's my logic at any rate. The real answer is likely "narrative causality"

Click to expand...

Good point, I must have missed that. Still, they always had Sulu or Chekov pushing buttons or staring at a screen when they were "piloting". It just seems like it would have been far more dramatic if she were feverishly doing something to keep the First Order pre-occupied with the cruiser.

I had a lot of thoughts on this one. My very first was an expletive that this was Empire Strikes Back 2.0. The Force Awakens mirrored A New Hope in plot so closely that it was at points laughable, and sure as the day is long The Last Jedi starts with rebels in a remote base that has been discovered by the Empire. Sigh.

Ninety seconds in I felt much better. This movie had some really great parts. I was pleasantly surprised with Mark Hammill's acting. I thought the 'milking scene' was horrifically obnoxious. I was ready to walk out when the subplot of getting the codebreakers help came up. I'd like to think Del Toro will have more of a presence in the next movie, but that entire piece was a waste of film. I thought Leia's death was brilliant... until she Forced her way back inside. Chewbacca should play a more central role. The Porgs added nice comedic relief and didn't disrupt the film. I liked the Snope end scene but we never got his backstory. I really sold hard on the idea that the Jedi and Sith must both die and emerge a truly neutral philosophy led by the Rey and Ren partnership, but that fell apart. I liked that Luke acknowledged that the entire Jedi order is nothing but a bunch of screw ups. Rose was a strong character. Captain Phasma was completely pointless. Apparently starcruisers have to run each other down like 18th century pirate vessels. Maybe DeathStar 4.0 will shoot cannon balls. Sigh.

In the end, I refuse to average it out. This movie is an 8 and a 2, depending on which minute of film is in front of you. Giving it a 5 just doesn't work for me.

See you around, kid.

I really can't get over the whole C-3PO & R2-D2 longevity..

The other thing that baffles me , are the companies that are 'freeloading' on the popularity of SW..

Bell.ca, our mother of all telecommunications companies, is advertising their phones & service with 'the last jedi'
Nissan is pushing their new Rogue with SW, and the younger driver strikes a very close similarity to Rey..
Another car commercial has a SW tie in..
And this post was prompted by a banner ad I just saw that had a storm trooper in it..

"Oooh, look, I said SW, buy my product"

dr wogz said:

The other thing that baffles me , are the companies that are 'freeloading' on the popularity of SW..

Click to expand...

I don't know if "freeloading" is the word I'd use, considering what those companies are no doubt paying for the tie-ins...