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  1. #1
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    Loki 76/13000 Hardware

    It’s time for me to order more 76mm tubing again and make more hardware. I’ve had a few requests in previous months about making a long 76mm case so I considered doing a small run of ~57” long cases. These can be used for very high performance reloads, or as mandrels for making your own custom made composite airframes, or for both. They will be type 3 hardcoat plated the same as all of the latest Loki hardware has been.

    This is quite possibly your only chance to get tubing in a 75/76mm motor case of this high of quality, at this long of a length with the straightest tubing you can have made in this size. Tubing specifications are called out by ID and wall so the OD is only a reference which is 2.985”. The ID tolerance is +/-.007” IR and the wall is +/-.006” IR. IR stands for individual reading. This means that for every inspection reading location, it has to be within those tolerances. Most tubing tolerances are twice this amount, and they are for the average tolerance of all location readings, not individual readings. After measuring the OD on the entire length of a few current 76/8000 cases on hand, I found a maximum OD variance of only +/-.0025”. That is outstanding!

    I would like to get a minimum of about 10 cases or so to make them as cost effective as possible, otherwise the anodizing cost would be relatively high for only doing a few. If I get less than 10 orders, I’ll see if I can still make it work.

    Pricing will be set at $355 for the hardcoat finished case only with a low profile thrust ring.
    Complete hardware with the addition of snap rings, nozzle washer, bulkhead and nozzle will be priced at $485.

    These prices are very reasonable in my opinion if you compare them to the gold type 2 anodized 75/10000 (55.7”) Kosdon hardware pricing from 2000. At only a 10% increase for either the case with no thrust ring or for the complete hardware, that’s not bad at all for 17 years of inflation! Compare this with other current brands and it is still an excellent value.

    Please note that graphite nozzles (FOR THIS HARDWARE) will not be warrantied for any reason. They are normally only good for one use in cases this long anyway. Also, I would highly recommended that nothing less than Loki Research X grade liner sets be used with this hardware. If you want a set of liners and casting tubes for your hardware, I will include plenty enough of X grade liner and casting tube material for you to cast a motor for only $50. Using standard 76mm Loki internal components you will have at most 52.125” of propellant length using a standard Loki graphite nozzle.

    If you would like to purchase one of the above, please send me an email with everything you would like by Dec. 18th.

    In the subject line you must put 76/13000 Purchase or it may be missed if it gets filtered into junk mail. Send it to scott (AT) Loki Research –DOT- com… without all the extra stuff. Please post this to your local EX boards/forums as well. All purchase requests need to be received no later than Monday December 18th. I’m sorry for the short notice as well but better late than never. You will be charged 50% upon order acceptance once I have enough orders and 50% plus shipping at the time of delivery. Delivery is estimated to be by the end of April.

    For those wondering if I will be making reloads for these, for now the answer is no, so don't purchase one for that reason. However I would make myself a case or two so I have something to do testing with if time permits.

    PS. please no PMs about this here but feel free to email this to your friend and re-post it on any local message boards.

    Disclaimer- if you purchase one in order to make your own reload, buyer assumes all risks. I assume you should know what you are doing.

    Last edited by Loki Research; 8th December 2017 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Clarification
    Scott Kormeier
    President/Owner
    Loki Research LLC.
    http://www.lokiresearch.com
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    "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake."
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  2. #2
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    11th January 2013
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    Scott,,
    As you know I am putting together an order for you now..
    One of these complete with a nozzle and a set of casting tubes and a liner
    will be the first item on the order...

    Thank you always man,,

    Very cool,,

    Teddy





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  3. #3
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    Teddy, as a reminder, Non-Commercial (EX/Research) items are not available for dealer purchase at dealer cost. This hardware along with all casting tube/liner sets fall into that category. If you would still like one at the prices listed above, please send me an email per the instructions above, separate from your dealer order.

    Thank you.

    To all, please note that nozzle throat sizes do not need to be given with your order at this time.
    Scott Kormeier
    President/Owner
    Loki Research LLC.
    http://www.lokiresearch.com
    TRA#7764

    "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake."
    -Henry David Thoreau

  4. #4
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    19th January 2009
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    Nice to see you ARE resurrecting the Kosdon 75/10k in a sense.
    If I didn't own the original, I'd be tempted.
    Hope you get the 10+ orders you seek.
    Perhaps you can "humor" the audience of the thread and post some stats on the nozzles ordered with this case.
    Will be interesting to see the range of choices people make.

    Keep up the cool work, Scott!
    Fred Azinger

  5. #5
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    21st January 2009
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    Awesome!!!!

    I too already have a case, but will likely go in for a full hardware set. Great hardware for the adventurous EX'er/Flyer!!!
    Eric Cayemberg
    TRA 7783 L3
    TAP

  6. #6
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    31st December 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Research View Post
    Using standard 76mm Loki internal components you will have at most 52.125 of propellant length using a standard Loki graphite nozzle.
    Plus a grain spacer.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredA View Post
    Perhaps you can "humor" the audience of the thread and post some stats on the nozzles ordered with this case.
    Will be interesting to see the range of choices people make.
    Well, the nozzle can be drilled out later. What is more interesting is what people think they will use for their grain geometry. Can we take bets on how many of the cases will be "one time use"?
    -John

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsdemar View Post
    Plus a grain spacer.



    Well, the nozzle can be drilled out later. What is more interesting is what people think they will use for their grain geometry. Can we take bets on how many of the cases will be "one time use"?
    See Scott's comment on one time use in post #1 concerning the nozzle, "One time use". I had a 24mm case with 11" of propellant that was one time use. Test fire was hellaciously hot and the aft snap ring was bowed out and destroyed the groove.
    The graphite nozzle was "toasty", "crumbly" and obviously one time use. The case of course was one time use too since the aft groove was stripped. If it had burned any longer, it likely would have blown. Should have been in the H impulse range.
    I still have a couple of cases and want to do a spacer and use fewer grains.

    This 76/13000 case is certainly in the challenging range for one to attempt and get to work. Kurt

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksaves2 View Post
    I had a 24mm case with 11" of propellant that was one time use. Test fire was hellaciously hot and the aft snap ring was bowed out and destroyed the groove.
    This was the reason our professor didn't want us mixing our own fuel. He could run a FEA on military missile motors and design nozzles all day long. He still was like NO to mix own fuels idea.

    We still monkeyed around with a CTI H123W Skidmark and it exploded in flight somehow with noobs trying head end ignition modifications. Because noobs. Bet that first EX motor yah make is scary.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_ASC View Post
    This was the reason our professor didn't want us mixing our own fuel. He could run a FEA on military missile motors and design nozzles all day long. He still was like NO to mix own fuels idea.

    We still monkeyed around with a CTI H123W Skidmark and it exploded in flight somehow with noobs trying head end ignition modifications. Because noobs. Bet that first EX motor yah make is scary.
    First EX motors are easy. Long EX motors are scary.
    -John

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  10. #10
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    Plus a grain spacer.
    For others maybe...
    Not for commercial Loki motors. ;-) They get hand cut with concave ends.
    Without grain spacer o-rings, it makes taping grains together for grain bonding much, MUCH easier than gluing in one grain at a time.
    For those without access to the EX forum. I posted the photo below there the other day.

    This 76mm motor length doesn't have quite as high of a L : D ratio that the 54/4000 has, so making reloads for this shouldn't be too much harder. Relatively speaking of course.

    I am unofficially half way there (5 sets) so if you are an un-official taker, please make it official asap by sending me an email.

    Bad news - ARCONIC says they may have a 12 week lead time so the sooner I get the tubing ordered the better. I've updated the estimated delivery date to the end of April.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Scott Kormeier
    President/Owner
    Loki Research LLC.
    http://www.lokiresearch.com
    TRA#7764

    "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake."
    -Henry David Thoreau

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Research View Post
    For others maybe...
    Not for commercial Loki motors. ;-)
    That was my point. ;-)
    -John

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsdemar View Post
    First EX motors are easy. Long EX motors are scary.
    Ditto,
    Ones first Ex motor should not be a 76/13000. Will not step into the minefield of "mix" or "no mix" as this is the open forum. Kurt

  13. #13
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    Please note that graphite nozzles (FOR THIS HARDWARE) will not be warrantied for any reason. They are normally only good for one use in cases this long anyway.
    Just so there is no confusion on graphite nozzles being warrantied, I added the bold print above to the original post.
    Scott Kormeier
    President/Owner
    Loki Research LLC.
    http://www.lokiresearch.com
    TRA#7764

    "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake."
    -Henry David Thoreau

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_ASC View Post
    This was the reason our professor didn't want us mixing our own fuel. He could run a FEA on military missile motors and design nozzles all day long. He still was like NO to mix own fuels idea.

    We still monkeyed around with a CTI H123W Skidmark and it exploded in flight somehow with noobs trying head end ignition modifications. Because noobs. Bet that first EX motor yah make is scary.
    First? Easy. 38mm, 2x 2" grains. very forgiving.


    now....that 7th motor....



    Quote Originally Posted by jsdemar View Post
    First EX motors are easy. Long EX motors are scary.
    yea. I'd put this (76/13000) one, for me, at "terrifying"
    David McCann
    Dave's Rockets | My Flights
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  15. #15
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Ah but its only 48 of propellant. Mach 3.6 was good enough for me.


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  16. #16
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    Dennis, are you trying to tell me it needs to be longer? LOL
    BTW, nice flight dude!

    I should have stated this but if you order complete hardware, keep in mind that the nozzle size you order can be for this or any other motor throat size you need.

    If a full diameter graphite nozzle is intended to be used with this motor case, it should be used with a low metals cooler burning propellant. If not, you may likely anneal the end of the case since the web thickness of the nozzle would be quite thin and quickly transfer a lot of heat to the motor case. If and when I make a reload for this case, it will use a single use composite nozzle the same type that the 54/4000 uses. Those are not available for purchase just yet, but they are on the horizon and would have to be completed before I could offer a reload.

    Remember the disclaimer I made?
    Disclaimer- if you purchase one in order to make your own reload, buyer assumes all risks. I assume you should know what you are doing.

    This was meant to cover things like the nozzle heat soak like I described above but I thought I should mention it anyway. It's hard to cover all the bases sometimes.
    Scott Kormeier
    President/Owner
    Loki Research LLC.
    http://www.lokiresearch.com
    TRA#7764

    "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake."
    -Henry David Thoreau

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwatkins View Post
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    Ah but it’s only 48” of propellant. Mach 3.6 was good enough for me.


    Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum
    Single use paint job! Me thinks on projects of this nature, pretty paint jobs and stickers or a waste of effort unless one
    is just wanting to practice painting skills. Kurt

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksaves2 View Post
    Single use paint job! Me thinks on projects of this nature, pretty paint jobs and stickers or a waste of effort unless one
    is just wanting to practice painting skills. Kurt
    High temp paint on areas of most concern as an ablative. Rest was bare carbon fiber. Other than that I totally agree.


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  19. #19
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    Total noob here, but wouldn't a couple of coats of alternating color give a pretty nice visual on erosion depth / intensity?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhbarr View Post
    Total noob here, but wouldn't a couple of coats of alternating color give a pretty nice visual on erosion depth / intensity?
    Why? Tooooo much weight! Cuts down on Mach. Seriously agree with the ablative concept. The thing would be what paint is the best at that task? Wasn't there a story about that nuclear powered missile in the 60's (Project Pluto/SLAM) where the engineers needed some heat resistant paint and they found that some engine block paint out of a Hot Rod magazine worked well? Possibly apocryphal story but sounds neat just the same. Kurt

  21. #21
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    I remember someone using high temp paint for a charcoal grill as an ablative coating.
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  22. #22
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    My paint of choice was high temp caliper paint.


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwatkins View Post
    My paint of choice was high temp caliper paint.


    Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum
    This may be the first time the word “caliper” was used correctly on this forum.

    Sorry, couldn’t resist.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by watheyak View Post
    This may be the first time the word “caliper” was used correctly on this forum.

    Sorry, couldn’t resist.
    brake paint makes you more better stables?
    David McCann
    Dave's Rockets | My Flights
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksaves2 View Post
    Why? Tooooo much weight! Cuts down on Mach. Seriously agree with the ablative concept. The thing would be what paint is the best at that task? Wasn't there a story about that nuclear powered missile in the 60's (Project Pluto/SLAM) where the engineers needed some heat resistant paint and they found that some engine block paint out of a Hot Rod magazine worked well? Possibly apocryphal story but sounds neat just the same. Kurt
    If you're worried about mass but your motor casing isn't naked you might have room for improvement :-)

    My musing was merely whether or not paint topography could potentially be useful for visualizing and/or validating hot air impingement and/or ablation.

    Doesn't Coker have an ablative page? I could be misremembering.
    Last edited by dhbarr; 10th December 2017 at 01:45 PM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwatkins View Post
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    Ah but it’s only 48” of propellant. Mach 3.6 was good enough for me.


    Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum
    0.4 Mach more and you too can air start scram jets. Tell Loki make em' longer. You can do it.


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