Thoughts on the new madcow nike-apache as first hpr 2 stager?

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rocketsam2016

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Hey folks,

I was planning on building my first HPR 2 stage rocket in late 2018 and had been eying the Madcow Doubleshot. Madcow has a great deal coming up though on a new 4"/1.6" Nike Apache kit (4" booster with 54mm mmt, 38mm sustainer with 29mm mmt).

I'm a little worried though that
1) It'll be pretty cramped for electronics/wiring compared to the double shot - my electronics plan is roughly to have a quantum in the interstage for stage separation and booster chute, a quantum in the sustainer ebay for sustainer ignition and apogee, and then another altimeter (possibly quantum, possibly not) dedicated to backup apogee and then the main event. Having to get creative with layout will make a first-time HPR 2-stager harder for sure. Hard is fun of course though :)

2) It's not going to be able to go nearly as high as the double shot, due to the 54mm/29mm MMT compared to 75mm/38mm. This is probably not the end of the world for me - my main field has a 10k waiver, but a quick openrocket model I put together suggests that the apache kit might not even be able to break mach by much and might not go higher than 12k feet on the biggest CTI motors. This is a bit of a bummer if I ever wanted to make a trip to some place with a higher waiver.

On the plus side, it is a fantastic bargain, I think it looks swank, and the smaller MMT sizes mean it's less scary if something goes wrong and less expensive if lost.

Are other folks eying this kit? Anyone else have thoughts?
 
As a first FG 2-stager I think this would be a great one. When you figure out what worked well for you and what didn't, THEN you build a 2-stage 98mm - 75mm beastie and got to the BIG WAIVERS! Use the smaller one to perfect your craft. The smaller one will also make you good at utilizing small spaces for avionics, etc...
 
I have a Double Shot but I'm getting one of the Nike Apaches because it's just too good a deal to pass up. It was moderately challenging getting everything into the Double Shot's 54mm sustainer AV bay (two Quantums and two 350 mAH LiPo's), it's going to be a lot more so in 38mm. I'll probably cheat and order an extra long piece of coupler and have it extend a few extra inches into the bottom body tube.
 
I'm going to try to grab one, maybe two of them. Between the projects my son want to undertake, and me trying to stay one step ahead to mentor him - we need all the two stage experience we can get 8-O

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Wow.... I sense a great disturbance in the force. Have I just witnessed a unanimously agreeing response to a question on the internet? :) :) :)

Looks like I'm pulling the trigger. Can everyone else wait until 10:30am or so Eastern time?

Thanks folks for the fast responses and enthusiasm!
 
I'm going to get one. It will go in my build pile right next to the Double Shot I bought last year when they were on sale.:facepalm:
 
If I didn't already have a 1/6 scale built and the 1/2 scale mostly completed I would also jump at this. If you don't you will be sorry :)

I managed to squeeze a Raven into the 1/6 scale (Cosmodrome kit, modded to 2-stage) so I would think it would be achievable with the new 1/4 scale kit. That's about 3.4 times the volume I had to play with. You will have to be a bit clever about it I suspect.

Another option is to have it made a little longer if you are not particularly concerned about scale replication. Not sure how close the kit is in the first place.
 
Interesting kit. I need to look at additional part needed to make it 2 stage.
 
Buy one. If you choose not to do it, you can come back here and sell it for more than you paid for it, likely. $99 for a $249 kit? Unreal.
 
Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

Any one else done this/have solution?

av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.:wink:
 
Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

Any one else done this/have solution?

av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.:wink:

I would have to agree with CJ, it is a good deal, but will be challenging. I built similar, but one step down in size and it was both a bitch to design and prep. Worked without head-end ignition, but really took some planning and finesse. Build thread is here if buyers want to look at some techniques: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-2nd-Stage-Sustainer-Build-quot-and-More-quot.

IMG_0595.JPG
 
Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

Any one else done this/have solution?

av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.:wink:

Sounds like the perfect 1st 2 stager for me, not a slam dunk, requires a bit of critical thinking/finesse, but is great value. I am going to have to check out dixon's build thread.
 
For this rocket, would it make sense to use dixon’s method of lighting the sustainer from the interstage, and using the ignition pressure to separate? Might not be ideal for altitude, but would solve the tight space problem - you could get away with one Quantum or similar in the booster (staging plus a chute at nose over) with a chute release, and for the sustainer a single dual deploy altimeter, plus a tracker in the nose.

If if nothing else, this seems like a great deal even if you don’t want to fly it 2 stage - buy the 4” Madcow Nike Smoke nosecone, and you’re basically getting the 4” smoke kit at a discount plus a 38mm all fiberglass rocket for free!
 
I just tried to order one...just one....says there are not enough in stock to meet my order.

"We don't have enough 4" Fiberglass Nike-Apache stock on hand for the quantity you selected. Please try again."

nike-apache.pdf


View attachment nike-apache.pdf
 
Last edited:
They will show as not in stock until the sale starts tomorrow morning.
 
The Raven plus Simple Circuit is a great unit for this rocket. Check out additive aerospace on BF...


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I just tried to order one...just one....says there are not enough in stock to meet my order.

"We don't have enough 4" Fiberglass Nike-Apache stock on hand for the quantity you selected. Please try again."

nike-apache.pdf
Read the Madcow offer--the sale doesn't start until 7am PST tomorrow.

From the Ether...
 
I'm not even interested in a 2-stager right now and I'm very tempted. These Madcow Friday sales rule.
 
Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

Any one else done this/have solution?

av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.:wink:

You can run the conduit on the outside, as long as there's enough room for the wire to squeeze in between the coupler and the motor/mount. I'm going to use a GLR Slimline like I did for the Double Shot... it makes a big difference. HEI would be great, but unfortunately that would relegate you to EX launches only.

I'm guessing the standard AV bay is 6" long, I'm going to order an 8" piece. The extra 2" will help a lot.

Don't know what the interstage is going to look like, but it shouldn't take much to fit in one Quantum and a battery. The Eggfinder Mini will fit just about anywhere in the booster, I'll have to see how much room is in the NC for a Mini, though.
 
Here's how I did it. Conduit I squeezed into "oval shape so I could get wire through it. Pics show clearly...But there was so little room between match wire going into motor and I/S..when separation occurred, coupler would pull match out of motor & no ignition. I went to HEI, you could run a very fine gauge wire, then attach match lead, down by nozzle.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...2-stage-sounding-rocket&p=1568017#post1568017

Using any type of glue on retention makes it even less space than just motor....see how I do retention by masking motor case in front of motor tube...dropping reload/motor in...then screwing on rear closure to hold motor in place...can't go anywhere, no need for any motor retention. Pics show that also. Post # 33.

All I was saying is that experienced guys will have no problem making mods for this to work. Some one who never built a 2 stage, will have a much higher degree of difficulty to overcome.....that's all.

You aren't buying this, assembling it & just installing electronics...go fly. There will be some serious engineering to overcome. Just didn't want someone thinking the kit is a no brainer, entry level 2-stage.

Good luck to all.
 
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