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  1. #1
    Join Date
    31st August 2016
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    252

    Thoughts on the new madcow nike-apache as first hpr 2 stager?

    Hey folks,

    I was planning on building my first HPR 2 stage rocket in late 2018 and had been eying the Madcow Doubleshot. Madcow has a great deal coming up though on a new 4"/1.6" Nike Apache kit (4" booster with 54mm mmt, 38mm sustainer with 29mm mmt).

    I'm a little worried though that
    1) It'll be pretty cramped for electronics/wiring compared to the double shot - my electronics plan is roughly to have a quantum in the interstage for stage separation and booster chute, a quantum in the sustainer ebay for sustainer ignition and apogee, and then another altimeter (possibly quantum, possibly not) dedicated to backup apogee and then the main event. Having to get creative with layout will make a first-time HPR 2-stager harder for sure. Hard is fun of course though :-)

    2) It's not going to be able to go nearly as high as the double shot, due to the 54mm/29mm MMT compared to 75mm/38mm. This is probably not the end of the world for me - my main field has a 10k waiver, but a quick openrocket model I put together suggests that the apache kit might not even be able to break mach by much and might not go higher than 12k feet on the biggest CTI motors. This is a bit of a bummer if I ever wanted to make a trip to some place with a higher waiver.

    On the plus side, it is a fantastic bargain, I think it looks swank, and the smaller MMT sizes mean it's less scary if something goes wrong and less expensive if lost.

    Are other folks eying this kit? Anyone else have thoughts?


  2. #2
    Join Date
    5th October 2017
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    154
    Do it.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    22nd August 2015
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    Rhode Island
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    1,282
    Quote Originally Posted by Normzilla View Post
    Do it.
    If I wasn't already in the middle of my first FG two stage build, I'd be all over this deal.
    NAR #100940, RIMRA & CMASS
    L1 - 4/17/16, Tyrannosaur (by Binder Design), Loki H144
    L2 - 8/19/17, Terrordactyl (by Binder Design), CTI J250

  4. #4
    Join Date
    14th September 2014
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    360
    As a first FG 2-stager I think this would be a great one. When you figure out what worked well for you and what didn't, THEN you build a 2-stage 98mm - 75mm beastie and got to the BIG WAIVERS! Use the smaller one to perfect your craft. The smaller one will also make you good at utilizing small spaces for avionics, etc...
    Randy Kennedy

    L1 - Scott's Special 1 (Vlad the Impaler), CTI I345, fall 2014 (R.I.P. Apr 2015)
    L2 - Mad Dog DD (Aftershock), CTI J449, spring 2015
    L3 - 8" Fiberglass DX3 XL (Crowd Pleaser), CTI M1890, June 3 2017 (it's baaaack!)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    3rd February 2012
    Location
    So Cal (ROC, TRASD, SCRA)
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    2,659
    I have a Double Shot but I'm getting one of the Nike Apaches because it's just too good a deal to pass up. It was moderately challenging getting everything into the Double Shot's 54mm sustainer AV bay (two Quantums and two 350 mAH LiPo's), it's going to be a lot more so in 38mm. I'll probably cheat and order an extra long piece of coupler and have it extend a few extra inches into the bottom body tube.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    29th December 2013
    Location
    Bayport MN
    Posts
    167
    I'm going to try to grab one, maybe two of them. Between the projects my son want to undertake, and me trying to stay one step ahead to mentor him - we need all the two stage experience we can get 8-O

    Sent from my LG-H811 using Rocketry Forum mobile app
    L1 - Madcow 4" Phoenix I180 Skidmark 1651 feet
    L2 - Darkstar 2.6" J145 Skidmark longburn 4787 feet
    L3 - Terminator 5" M1297 White Lightning 8602 feet

    TRA 15743
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    http://www.rocketreviews.com/karl-tyrrells-page.html

  7. #7
    Join Date
    15th October 2016
    Location
    Huntsville AL
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    2,146
    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsam2016 View Post
    I think it looks swank

    No experience with staging Hi-power, but I wholeheartedly support this as reason enough to go for it. (that's pretty much the main factor when I choose my kits )
    "I'm at least 70% confident about whatever I say (90% of the time)"- college me

    NAR 101195
    Level 1: Big SAM, 9/10/16

  8. #8
    Join Date
    31st August 2016
    Posts
    252
    Wow.... I sense a great disturbance in the force. Have I just witnessed a unanimously agreeing response to a question on the internet? :-) :-) :-)

    Looks like I'm pulling the trigger. Can everyone else wait until 10:30am or so Eastern time?

    Thanks folks for the fast responses and enthusiasm!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    11th September 2013
    Posts
    241
    I'm going to get one. It will go in my build pile right next to the Double Shot I bought last year when they were on sale.
    Gregg
    NAR #97216

  10. #10
    Join Date
    26th November 2009
    Posts
    5,214
    I foresee it running out quickly. How many to they make? Does anyone know? Kurt

  11. #11
    Join Date
    20th February 2009
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    Cayuga, Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksaves2 View Post
    I foresee it running out quickly. How many to they make? Does anyone know? Kurt
    I believe they sold ~100 kits in the first Mongoose 38 run a couple weeks ago.
    L3, TRA #11847
    Tripoli Indiana #132
    Tripoli Central Illinois #59
    Central Illinois Aerospace (NAR) #527
    Chicago Rocket Mafia, "Big Bucks" Dixon
    ___________________________________

    Quiet little voices creep into my head. -- We Were Promised Jetpacks

  12. #12
    Join Date
    10th July 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    1,468
    If I didn't already have a 1/6 scale built and the 1/2 scale mostly completed I would also jump at this. If you don't you will be sorry

    I managed to squeeze a Raven into the 1/6 scale (Cosmodrome kit, modded to 2-stage) so I would think it would be achievable with the new 1/4 scale kit. That's about 3.4 times the volume I had to play with. You will have to be a bit clever about it I suspect.

    Another option is to have it made a little longer if you are not particularly concerned about scale replication. Not sure how close the kit is in the first place.
    TRA 13430, Level 3

    "Everybody's simulation model is guilty until proven innocent" (Thomas H. Lawrence 1994)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    25th January 2009
    Location
    Glennville, GA
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    17,909
    Interesting kit. I need to look at additional part needed to make it 2 stage.
    -----------------------
    Chuck Haislip
    NAR/Tripoli Level 3
    Formerly a Prefect of ICBM - TRA #60

    Level 1 - LOC Minie Magg; Level 2 - PR Broken Arrow;
    Level 3 - 10 inch Nike Smoke
    2015 Ns for Year: 1315 Newtons
    My rockets usually fly naked. If they survive, they earn their paint.

    Come fly with ROSCo or ICBM in Camden SC => http://rocketrysouthcarolina.org

  14. #14
    Join Date
    5th December 2013
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    7,374
    Buy one. If you choose not to do it, you can come back here and sell it for more than you paid for it, likely. $99 for a $249 kit? Unreal.

    John S. ---- NAR #96911 ---- TRA #15253 ---- MDRA #067 ---- BARC #028
    L1, 3/15/14: Aerotech Sumo, CTI H133BS
    L2, 6/21/14: Giant Leap Vertical Assault, CTI J240RL
    L3, 3/12/16: MAC Performance Radial Flyer, CTI M1101WH
    Altitude: 13,028', L3 flight; Speed: Mach ???, L3 flight

  15. #15
    Join Date
    15th March 2017
    Posts
    53
    Anybody have a link to a rocksim file for it?
    L1 Madcow 2.6" Tomach H180W 1455' Mansfield Wa
    L2 Madcow 4" AGM 58 J425R 1325' Tri-cities Wa

  16. #16
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Savannnah, Ga
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    7,917
    Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

    I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
    There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

    Any one else done this/have solution?

    av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
    Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

    Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.
    Jim Hendricksen
    L-3 Tripoli 9693
    [ICBM, Orangeburg,SC R.I.P.] - QCRS ,Princeton ILL - MDRA , Price Maryland - Woosh, Bong Wisconsin- ROCC, Charlotte NC , ICBM Camden SC
    "Made" member of Chicago & Carolina Rocket Mafia
    Rocketry...........an exact science.......but not exactly !!!

  17. #17
    Join Date
    20th February 2009
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    Cayuga, Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack2564 View Post
    Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

    I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
    There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

    Any one else done this/have solution?

    av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
    Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

    Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.
    I would have to agree with CJ, it is a good deal, but will be challenging. I built similar, but one step down in size and it was both a bitch to design and prep. Worked without head-end ignition, but really took some planning and finesse. Build thread is here if buyers want to look at some techniques: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...-and-More-quot.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	332226  
    L3, TRA #11847
    Tripoli Indiana #132
    Tripoli Central Illinois #59
    Central Illinois Aerospace (NAR) #527
    Chicago Rocket Mafia, "Big Bucks" Dixon
    ___________________________________

    Quiet little voices creep into my head. -- We Were Promised Jetpacks

  18. #18
    Join Date
    7th July 2013
    Location
    Toronto
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    3,548
    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack2564 View Post
    Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

    I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
    There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

    Any one else done this/have solution?

    av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
    Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

    Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.
    Sounds like the perfect 1st 2 stager for me, not a slam dunk, requires a bit of critical thinking/finesse, but is great value. I am going to have to check out dixon's build thread.
    Michael Pitfield
    TRA 14579 L2
    NAPAS BoD
    URRG
    MARS
    CRC

  19. #19
    Join Date
    12th April 2015
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    303
    For this rocket, would it make sense to use dixon’s method of lighting the sustainer from the interstage, and using the ignition pressure to separate? Might not be ideal for altitude, but would solve the tight space problem - you could get away with one Quantum or similar in the booster (staging plus a chute at nose over) with a chute release, and for the sustainer a single dual deploy altimeter, plus a tracker in the nose.

    If if nothing else, this seems like a great deal even if you don’t want to fly it 2 stage - buy the 4” Madcow Nike Smoke nosecone, and you’re basically getting the 4” smoke kit at a discount plus a 38mm all fiberglass rocket for free!
    I aim at the stars. But sometimes I hit London.

    NAR #99868
    L1: MDRM on CTI H175, 7/26/2015 @ NARAM 57
    L2: "Flugel der Freiheit", AT J420R, 11/4/2017 @ GHS Memorial

  20. #20
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Virginia - Central
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    4,100
    I just tried to order one...just one....says there are not enough in stock to meet my order.

    "We don't have enough 4" Fiberglass Nike-Apache stock on hand for the quantity you selected. Please try again."

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MaxQ; 17th November 2017 at 03:38 AM.
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  21. #21
    Join Date
    12th April 2015
    Location
    Arizona
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    303
    They will show as not in stock until the sale starts tomorrow morning.
    I aim at the stars. But sometimes I hit London.

    NAR #99868
    L1: MDRM on CTI H175, 7/26/2015 @ NARAM 57
    L2: "Flugel der Freiheit", AT J420R, 11/4/2017 @ GHS Memorial

  22. #22
    Join Date
    23rd January 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,459

    Thoughts on the new madcow nike-apache as first hpr 2 stager?

    The Raven plus Simple Circuit is a great unit for this rocket. Check out additive aerospace on BF...


    Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

  23. #23
    Join Date
    29th December 2013
    Location
    Bayport MN
    Posts
    167
    I have a guess at it in open rocket. I stretched the couplers to 8" since I'll do that to it anyway.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    L1 - Madcow 4" Phoenix I180 Skidmark 1651 feet
    L2 - Darkstar 2.6" J145 Skidmark longburn 4787 feet
    L3 - Terminator 5" M1297 White Lightning 8602 feet

    TRA 15743
    NAR 30949
    http://www.rocketreviews.com/karl-tyrrells-page.html

  24. #24
    Join Date
    20th February 2009
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    Cayuga, Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    I just tried to order one...just one....says there are not enough in stock to meet my order.

    "We don't have enough 4" Fiberglass Nike-Apache stock on hand for the quantity you selected. Please try again."

    Read the Madcow offer--the sale doesn't start until 7am PST tomorrow.

    From the Ether...
    L3, TRA #11847
    Tripoli Indiana #132
    Tripoli Central Illinois #59
    Central Illinois Aerospace (NAR) #527
    Chicago Rocket Mafia, "Big Bucks" Dixon
    ___________________________________

    Quiet little voices creep into my head. -- We Were Promised Jetpacks

  25. #25
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Burlington, NC
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    1,344
    I have one of the original Performance Rocketry ones.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Rocketry Forum mobile app

  26. #26
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    Virginia - Central
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    Quote Originally Posted by dixontj93060 View Post
    Read the Madcow offer--the sale doesn't start until 7am PST tomorrow.

    From the Ether...
    Read post #21
    (Oberon beat you to it)

    When I first read that I thought it was available thru 11-17-17......
    Thanks anyway.
    Last edited by MaxQ; 17th November 2017 at 04:23 AM.
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  27. #27
    Join Date
    18th October 2016
    Posts
    594
    I'm not even interested in a 2-stager right now and I'm very tempted. These Madcow Friday sales rule.
    TRA L2. I-class record: "Vanish 29" with an I224, 14,596ft, Mach 1.92. Video here.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    3rd February 2012
    Location
    So Cal (ROC, TRASD, SCRA)
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    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack2564 View Post
    Not a good first 2 stage kit! Great for experienced builders!

    I Looked at it closely. I have built a similar version, Sparrow-Arcus 1/3 scale.
    There is no room for conduit on sustainer between 29mount & 38 airframe. Unless your a magician head end ignition is mandatory. I used a brass ink pen re-fill tube which barley fit for conduit, and the wire would get caught between coupler and mm and pull out of motor when separating . H.E.I was only solution I could find.

    Any one else done this/have solution?

    av-bay coupler needs to be a bit larger for staging electronics.
    Interstage will need re-design/ more parts for separation electronics and altimeter.

    Not saying don't get one.....just be aware it's not going to be an easy first time 2-stage build.
    You can run the conduit on the outside, as long as there's enough room for the wire to squeeze in between the coupler and the motor/mount. I'm going to use a GLR Slimline like I did for the Double Shot... it makes a big difference. HEI would be great, but unfortunately that would relegate you to EX launches only.

    I'm guessing the standard AV bay is 6" long, I'm going to order an 8" piece. The extra 2" will help a lot.

    Don't know what the interstage is going to look like, but it shouldn't take much to fit in one Quantum and a battery. The Eggfinder Mini will fit just about anywhere in the booster, I'll have to see how much room is in the NC for a Mini, though.

  29. #29
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    18th January 2009
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    Savannnah, Ga
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    Here's how I did it. Conduit I squeezed into "oval shape so I could get wire through it. Pics show clearly...But there was so little room between match wire going into motor and I/S..when separation occurred, coupler would pull match out of motor & no ignition. I went to HEI, you could run a very fine gauge wire, then attach match lead, down by nozzle.

    http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...17#post1568017

    Using any type of glue on retention makes it even less space than just motor....see how I do retention by masking motor case in front of motor tube...dropping reload/motor in...then screwing on rear closure to hold motor in place...can't go anywhere, no need for any motor retention. Pics show that also. Post # 33.

    All I was saying is that experienced guys will have no problem making mods for this to work. Some one who never built a 2 stage, will have a much higher degree of difficulty to overcome.....that's all.

    You aren't buying this, assembling it & just installing electronics...go fly. There will be some serious engineering to overcome. Just didn't want someone thinking the kit is a no brainer, entry level 2-stage.

    Good luck to all.
    Jim Hendricksen
    L-3 Tripoli 9693
    [ICBM, Orangeburg,SC R.I.P.] - QCRS ,Princeton ILL - MDRA , Price Maryland - Woosh, Bong Wisconsin- ROCC, Charlotte NC , ICBM Camden SC
    "Made" member of Chicago & Carolina Rocket Mafia
    Rocketry...........an exact science.......but not exactly !!!

  30. #30
    Join Date
    10th July 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
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    I'm not even interested in a 2-stager right now and I'm very tempted. These Madcow Friday sales rule.
    Buy it. Build it. Fly it as a single stage or a boosted dart

    TRA 13430, Level 3

    "Everybody's simulation model is guilty until proven innocent" (Thomas H. Lawrence 1994)

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