Why does the AT 24/60 case exist?

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In this age where the expectation is instant news, 2 day delivery, numerous time stamped updates per day on web pages, NAR might need to up their PR game. I think the buzz word I’m looking for is transparency.
Usually NAR is pretty good about this, but it's gotten a bit worse in the last year and the website is not being updated frequently. See https://www.nar.org/orgdocs/board-of-trustee-meeting-minutes/ although it looks like they are behind on posting the minutes from the last NARAM in July. There's a discussion in the February minutes about S&T but it doesn't discuss any testing backlog, and the last "Electronic Rocketeer" email from the president in June talked about some S&T testing in February -- "We tested perhaps 15 or so motors; no misfires and the report is off to the vendor."
 
From the February 2017 minutes linked in Mike C’s post above:
The Board discussed the fact that S&T relies heavily on committee chair Jack Kane’s relationship with MIT, whose facilities we use for testing. John L. suggested that S&T should build an alternative testing system as insurance against the possibility of losing access to the MIT test cell. Bob Krech estimates that $5000 will cover the cost of a test cell housed in a trailer. John L. said that S&T has access to a site in Maine, about 90 minutes from Boston, and that with a concrete pad on the site they would be able to test motors of any size. (The MIT test cell is not suitable for large motors.)
Ed L. moved to approve $5000 for a trailer, a mobile test stand, and new test equipment as needed. Vince H. seconded. In favor: Ryan C., Joyce G., Vince H., Carol M., Mark W. Abstaining: John L. Motion approved.


Steve Shannon
 
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Thanks Mark and Steve for the explanations / info. Did not know that changes to 1125 were needed for self certification. Also now know the reason for the delay. Could not justify buying a couple cases for just one reload, been waiting along time to see if these new loads were actually going to be available. I thought maybe Aerotech was going to cancel them for some reason. Looks like we won't have to worry about long delays for certification in the near future.
 
Steve nicely summed up the situation. NAR S&T East at the MIT test site had university use constraints placed on it that delayed the testing schedule along with testing staff availability. Actions were taken to address the staff availability constraint by scheduling test sessions each month every month for a three month moving window that manufactures can schedule against. S&T has also implemented a monthly phone conference to keep the certification process running on schedule by identifying testing constraints and work towards mitigating those as a group. Finally, the NAR S&T West test facility is being brought back on line after many years of dormancy. Updated test stand data collection hardware was ordered and has been delivered, integration still needs to occur but the site should go active in two to three weeks.
 
Steve nicely summed up the situation. NAR S&T East at the MIT test site had university use constraints placed on it that delayed the testing schedule along with testing staff availability. Actions were taken to address the staff availability constraint by scheduling test sessions each month every month for a three month moving window that manufactures can schedule against. S&T has also implemented a monthly phone conference to keep the certification process running on schedule by identifying testing constraints and work towards mitigating those as a group. Finally, the NAR S&T West test facility is being brought back on line after many years of dormancy. Updated test stand data collection hardware was ordered and has been delivered, integration still needs to occur but the site should go active in two to three weeks.

Great news, John!
 
So, unless I misread, both NAR and TRA should soon be able to test A-O on either coast?

What are the odds we could get a technical write-up on the four configs?

Also: neat!
 
Unless I am wrong, only NAR S&T can "Contest Certify" Model Rocket Motors. That is different than plain old regular "certification".
 
So, unless I misread, both NAR and TRA should soon be able to test A-O on either coast?

What are the odds we could get a technical write-up on the four configs?

Also: neat!

At least right now Tripoli does not plan to build a testing facility on the west coast.
I would also be interested in learning more about the various test facilities. I haven’t even visited ours (TMT) yet. [emoji573]
 
Aerojet/Rocketdyne in Rancho Cordova, CA. will likely have a few unused test stands soon... :)
 
Started a separate thread dedicated to "Motor Certification" process improvements. Yeah go ahead and bash the noob for sticking its thumb into places where noobs don't belong... That way the organizations for motor certifications can complain to flyers and manufacturers on what needs to happen to increase speed of certifications for motors or start processes to certify EX motors by TRA/NAR members. Yeaaahhhh only fair if they can complain too right?? LOL.
 
Andrew, I am going to say this. I have not bashed you. You are not aware of many things as to how and why motors are certified. It is ok to not know those things, but before going forward with your probing of certification entities and their methods I strongly suggest you do some research, and understand what is, and why it is that way.

Read the certification manuals- CAR and NAR manuals are available online. I suggest you go to the NFPA and read 1125. After you do that let's have a conversation.


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I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

Phil L.
 
[video=youtube;TYeVQzTVyLk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYeVQzTVyLk[/video]

There will be growth in the Spring.

I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

Phil L.
 
I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

Phil L.


There were two other reloads sent to NAR S&T at the same time as the F-51NT
 
It will be fund to start getting those loads. I can't find 'em anywhere yet, though at least they are listed on buyrocketmotors.com as "out of stock"....rather than not listed at all.
 
It will be fund to start getting those loads. I can't find 'em anywhere yet, though at least they are listed on buyrocketmotors.com as "out of stock"....rather than not listed at all.

He should have them in stock early next week.
 
Sweet. Any idea when these will make it to Thrust Curve?

I am pretty quick once I have the cert letters. NAR S&T has not released two of the three. The F51 letter is in my possession, but I would prefer to sit down and do all three at once- just easier to get into the mode of doing it all at once.


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Isn’t the F63R the only hobby line red motor? Awsome!

I wonder if any vendor will have ‘em at Red Glare next weekend?
 
Yes, but sometimes the Estes metal motor hook needs to have the upper flange filed down a tiny bit to allow the delay housing to protrude past.

I've done this "in-situ".

So basically it fits anywhere an Estes E12-4 fits.
 
I have left the red cap off on reloads that otherwise would not make it past the forward nib on the motor hook. Install the black powder, add some wadding or dog barf insolation to insure the ejection charge stays in place, and put a strip of tape over it. Did this last month on a D13-7 in my Super Alpha.

Chas
 
I have left the red cap off on reloads that otherwise would not make it past the forward nib on the motor hook. Install the black powder, add some wadding or dog barf insolation to insure the ejection charge stays in place, and put a strip of tape over it. Did this last month on a D13-7 in my Super Alpha.

Chas

Yes, this works for 18mm RMS, but the delay housing on the 24mm RMS will interfere with the Estes hook. Filing the upper end of the book to make it shorter will allow the delay housing to fit.
 
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