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  1. #61
    Join Date
    9th May 2009
    Posts
    1,622
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwing94 View Post
    In this age where the expectation is instant news, 2 day delivery, numerous time stamped updates per day on web pages, NAR might need to up their PR game. I think the buzz word I’m looking for is transparency.
    Usually NAR is pretty good about this, but it's gotten a bit worse in the last year and the website is not being updated frequently. See http://www.nar.org/orgdocs/board-of-...eting-minutes/ although it looks like they are behind on posting the minutes from the last NARAM in July. There's a discussion in the February minutes about S&T but it doesn't discuss any testing backlog, and the last "Electronic Rocketeer" email from the president in June talked about some S&T testing in February -- "We tested perhaps 15 or so motors; no misfires and the report is off to the vendor."


  2. #62
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
    Posts
    2,556

    Why does the AT 24/60 case exist?

    From the February 2017 minutes linked in Mike Cís post above:
    The Board discussed the fact that S&T relies heavily on committee chair Jack Kaneís relationship with MIT, whose facilities we use for testing. John L. suggested that S&T should build an alternative testing system as insurance against the possibility of losing access to the MIT test cell. Bob Krech estimates that $5000 will cover the cost of a test cell housed in a trailer. John L. said that S&T has access to a site in Maine, about 90 minutes from Boston, and that with a concrete pad on the site they would be able to test motors of any size. (The MIT test cell is not suitable for large motors.)
    Ed L. moved to approve $5000 for a trailer, a mobile test stand, and new test equipment as needed. Vince H. seconded. In favor: Ryan C., Joyce G., Vince H., Carol M., Mark W. Abstaining: John L. Motion approved.

    Steve Shannon

    Last edited by Steve Shannon; 6th November 2017 at 03:38 PM.
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  3. #63
    Join Date
    26th October 2009
    Location
    Sheboygan WI
    Posts
    1,278
    Thanks Mark and Steve for the explanations / info. Did not know that changes to 1125 were needed for self certification. Also now know the reason for the delay. Could not justify buying a couple cases for just one reload, been waiting along time to see if these new loads were actually going to be available. I thought maybe Aerotech was going to cancel them for some reason. Looks like we won't have to worry about long delays for certification in the near future.
    _______________________
    Jeff - NAR #76531 -L2

  4. #64
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    Posts
    588
    Steve nicely summed up the situation. NAR S&T East at the MIT test site had university use constraints placed on it that delayed the testing schedule along with testing staff availability. Actions were taken to address the staff availability constraint by scheduling test sessions each month every month for a three month moving window that manufactures can schedule against. S&T has also implemented a monthly phone conference to keep the certification process running on schedule by identifying testing constraints and work towards mitigating those as a group. Finally, the NAR S&T West test facility is being brought back on line after many years of dormancy. Updated test stand data collection hardware was ordered and has been delivered, integration still needs to occur but the site should go active in two to three weeks.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    9th October 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    92
    Excellent news and excellent updates. Thanks everyone for the information..

  6. #66
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
    Posts
    2,556
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnly View Post
    Steve nicely summed up the situation. NAR S&T East at the MIT test site had university use constraints placed on it that delayed the testing schedule along with testing staff availability. Actions were taken to address the staff availability constraint by scheduling test sessions each month every month for a three month moving window that manufactures can schedule against. S&T has also implemented a monthly phone conference to keep the certification process running on schedule by identifying testing constraints and work towards mitigating those as a group. Finally, the NAR S&T West test facility is being brought back on line after many years of dormancy. Updated test stand data collection hardware was ordered and has been delivered, integration still needs to occur but the site should go active in two to three weeks.
    Great news, John!
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  7. #67
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
    Posts
    3,740
    So, unless I misread, both NAR and TRA should soon be able to test A-O on either coast?

    What are the odds we could get a technical write-up on the four configs?

    Also: neat!

  8. #68
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,471
    Unless I am wrong, only NAR S&T can "Contest Certify" Model Rocket Motors. That is different than plain old regular "certification".

  9. #69
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
    Posts
    2,556
    Quote Originally Posted by shreadvector View Post
    Unless I am wrong, only NAR S&T can "Contest Certify" Model Rocket Motors. That is different than plain old regular "certification".
    I believe thatís correct, Fred. Thatís not something TRA will do.
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  10. #70
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
    Posts
    2,556
    Quote Originally Posted by dhbarr View Post
    So, unless I misread, both NAR and TRA should soon be able to test A-O on either coast?

    What are the odds we could get a technical write-up on the four configs?

    Also: neat!
    At least right now Tripoli does not plan to build a testing facility on the west coast.
    I would also be interested in learning more about the various test facilities. I havenít even visited ours (TMT) yet.
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  11. #71
    Join Date
    25th June 2014
    Posts
    850
    Aerojet/Rocketdyne in Rancho Cordova, CA. will likely have a few unused test stands soon...

  12. #72
    Join Date
    22nd September 2017
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    998
    Started a separate thread dedicated to "Motor Certification" process improvements. Yeah go ahead and bash the noob for sticking its thumb into places where noobs don't belong... That way the organizations for motor certifications can complain to flyers and manufacturers on what needs to happen to increase speed of certifications for motors or start processes to certify EX motors by TRA/NAR members. Yeaaahhhh only fair if they can complain too right?? LOL.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    18th March 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,760

    Why does the AT 24/60 case exist?

    Andrew, I am going to say this. I have not bashed you. You are not aware of many things as to how and why motors are certified. It is ok to not know those things, but before going forward with your probing of certification entities and their methods I strongly suggest you do some research, and understand what is, and why it is that way.

    Read the certification manuals- CAR and NAR manuals are available online. I suggest you go to the NFPA and read 1125. After you do that let's have a conversation.


    Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum
    Mark Koelsch
    Tripoli 6155 L3
    Owner of http://www.rocketryfiles.com/
    Editor of http://www.thrustcurve.org/
    Member of the Tripoli Motor Test Committee, and keeper of the motor file

  14. #74
    Join Date
    25th October 2011
    Location
    Orange, Ca
    Posts
    353
    I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
    There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
    Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

    Phil L.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,471


    There will be growth in the Spring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxitout View Post
    I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
    There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
    Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

    Phil L.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    24th July 2016
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxitout View Post
    I've been thinking about this thread since it started, and I'd like to reply. I also wondered about the 24/60 case, with only 1 motor for it. I told myself if there were more choices for it, I'd buy a couple.
    There is another thread here, about these motors in the Aerotech open thread. When I saw that they were working on other motors for it, I bought 2 of the casing sets, and some reloads for it. I figured that when the other loads were certified, it might be a problem to get the hardware. I also noticed that the current F35 reload is very close in overall performance to the F37 reload for the 29/60 case. An adapter takes care of the size difference, and the F35 is about 1/2 the cost of the F37, if you buy these from Wildman Rocketry. (Tim has very good prices on these).
    Now, just recently, another load was certified for this case, the F51NT. Supposedly, the others will follow soon. So, I am eagerly anticipating the new motors for this, but I assume it will be a month or so before we see any of these new motors.

    Phil L.

    There were two other reloads sent to NAR S&T at the same time as the F-51NT
    Level 1 - 4in cardboard Madcow Super Payloader DX3 - CTI 125 classic
    Level 2 - 4in cardboard Madcow Super Payloader DX3 modified for dual deploy - Aerotech J270 DMS
    Level 3 - 5.5in Fiberglass Madcow Super Payloader DX3 - Aerotech M1600 Red

  17. #77
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
    Posts
    570
    3 new reloads have been certified by NAR:
    F51-10NT
    F62-10FJ
    F63-10R
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: 2018




  18. #78
    Join Date
    19th February 2009
    Location
    Auburn, WA USA
    Posts
    2,103
    It will be fund to start getting those loads. I can't find 'em anywhere yet, though at least they are listed on buyrocketmotors.com as "out of stock"....rather than not listed at all.
    Bernard Cawley
    NAR 89040 L1
    AMA 42160
    KG7AIE

  19. #79
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by BEC View Post
    It will be fund to start getting those loads. I can't find 'em anywhere yet, though at least they are listed on buyrocketmotors.com as "out of stock"....rather than not listed at all.
    He should have them in stock early next week.
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: 2018




  20. #80
    Join Date
    6th December 2013
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    2,258
    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    He should have them in stock early next week.

    The Fastest and Most Reliable and Transparent Way to Buy High Power Rocket Motors

    Same/Next Day Shipping, Real Time Inventory, Order Confirmation, Package Tracking

    Tripoli #3135

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  21. #81
    Join Date
    13th February 2018
    Location
    OC
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    3 new reloads have been certified by NAR:
    F51-10NT
    F62-10FJ
    F63-10R
    Sweet. Any idea when these will make it to Thrust Curve?

  22. #82
    Join Date
    18th March 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,760
    Quote Originally Posted by OC_Rocket_Man View Post
    Sweet. Any idea when these will make it to Thrust Curve?
    I am pretty quick once I have the cert letters. NAR S&T has not released two of the three. The F51 letter is in my possession, but I would prefer to sit down and do all three at once- just easier to get into the mode of doing it all at once.


    Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
    Mark Koelsch
    Tripoli 6155 L3
    Owner of http://www.rocketryfiles.com/
    Editor of http://www.thrustcurve.org/
    Member of the Tripoli Motor Test Committee, and keeper of the motor file

  23. #83
    Join Date
    26th February 2017
    Posts
    59
    Isn’t the F63R the only hobby line red motor? Awsome!

    I wonder if any vendor will have ‘em at Red Glare next weekend?
    NAR #102778
    L1 - 4/7/17 - Loc IV H123W, LDRS36

  24. #84
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
    Posts
    570
    Correct, it is the only hobby redline reload. We have the G77 redline in single use.

    Quote Originally Posted by BradMilkomeda View Post
    Isn’t the F63R the only hobby line red motor? Awsome!

    I wonder if any vendor will have ‘em at Red Glare next weekend?
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: 2018




  25. #85
    Join Date
    22nd September 2017
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    998
    So basically it fits anywhere an Estes E12-4 fits.

  26. #86
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,471
    Yes, but sometimes the Estes metal motor hook needs to have the upper flange filed down a tiny bit to allow the delay housing to protrude past.

    I've done this "in-situ".

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_ASC View Post
    So basically it fits anywhere an Estes E12-4 fits.

  27. #87
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    378
    I have left the red cap off on reloads that otherwise would not make it past the forward nib on the motor hook. Install the black powder, add some wadding or dog barf insolation to insure the ejection charge stays in place, and put a strip of tape over it. Did this last month on a D13-7 in my Super Alpha.

    Chas

    Chas. Russell, MSgt
    Retired AF Missile Technician
    NAR 9790 Sr Lvl 1

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