Professional carpentry: How good is good enough?

Hi folks,

I've got a bathroom / master bedroom remodel going on, work performed by professionals (NOT ME!).

Mostly everything looks great so far, but they just started painting and a couple carpentry things are standing out like sore thumbs to me, now that trim paint has gone on, that I hardly noticed before. My question to this august assembly is, are these defects to be corrected, or simply par for the course for the type of work being done.

The big one is that I had crown molding installed. My walls are NOT perfectly straight, so it's not necessarily an easy job. Three corners came out perfectly. One looks like this:



Then, the lateral joins in the molding are clearly visible after painting:



I saw these things before paint went on, but for the lateral joins I assumed they were to be sanded down (and nail holes properly filled) before painting, to minimize how they stand out. That didn't happen.

For the corner, I knew full well it was off, but the guy that did the molding did an absolutely amazing job with the tile in the bathroom and I tried to look past the corner, but after paint went on (well, partially on, they aren't done yet), it stands out so clearly.

I've not really had a professional remodel done before, so I don't know if these are defects I should complain about for a fix, or simply par for the course for this type of work.

Before I get things in a twist, I'd appreciate your feedback.

Thanks guys!

Marc

All three are poor workmanship fro a professional. The corner is the worst and I wouldn't put up with that. The lateral joints are sloppy, but I could live with them. I would insist they fix the corner no matter what.

We had our house built about a year ago and the finish carpenters did a pretty good job, but some things were sloppy. Fortunately, the bad stuff is not very noticeable (such as trim joints in the stairwell) and I let it slide as I was working on the house at the same time the carpenters were here and knew that they were working hard, doing a good job and contentious. And all the woodwork in my house is oak that was stained and varnished, so a lot harder to hide mistakes.

Anyway, the corner needs to be fixed. I am amazed that a professional didn't just tell you that he would fix it after seeing how bad it looked.

Yeah, the guy that did it worked for about three + weeks on the demo then tile job on the bathroom and it's flawless. Simply stunning.

I feel bad that I did see it before, just didn't think it was SO bad until paint went on. Now it means repainting lots of stuff if I have him fix it. Uggh.

I disagree with you guy's that are saying put up or tolerate it..
I just had my bottom floor done..
The walls are just as crooked as everybody else's...
The moulding work came out flawless...
There is such a thing as wood putty..
I don't even have to take a pic for you,,, it's flawless....
I didn't demand this,, I didn't even ask for it...
These are pro's,, you should ask them in a slightly embarrassing manner,,
to allow them to make a joke of it if that's what they wish...
You are certainly going to finish this, right ???
I mean you do know there's such a thing as wood putty,, right ???
It's very, very different if your're doing it yourself or if your brother in law is doing it as a favor...
Then you leave it,, no biggie...
But when the contactor told you the price of the work before he began and you had to sit down for a moment
he didn't explain that this would be part of the finished product, right ???

No way,, not if he's being paid for the work...

Teddy

I appreciate your opinions. Thank you guys so much.

I'm a bit obsessive compulsive about certain things, and for me it's often difficult to know where a reasonable line is between a ridiculous complaint and one that is well founded in expectations of craftsmanship. Your input on this has confirmed that the corner, which is going to be a b!^$h to fix, including messing up paintwork already done, must be fixed. The joins should be relatively easy to putty fix; I'm surprised those weren't done as part of the prep.

For me the social anxiety around this comes from the fact that the corner has been that way for three weeks and I didn't say anything; it's just now that it's painted I see how bad it is. Uggh.

Marc

Ask him if the paint that's on it now is a primer for the putty that's going to fix the sloppy joint
so that you can't ever see again how sloppily it was cut in the first place..

Teddy

you should know by now that fresh paint highlights flaws. that corner needs fixing.
Rex

Rex R said:

you should know by now that fresh paint highlights flaws. that corner needs fixing.
Rex

Click to expand...

Indeed.

the joins add character to the room
Rex

Rex R said:

the joins add character to the room
Rex

Click to expand...

Yeah,, lol..
That's what the contractor is going to tell you..lol..

Teddy

I really want to be fair to them. The shower they built and tiled is stunning.

"If a professional did the work, then only HE should be able to find the mistakes". Since he did the work he knows where he made mistakes. Honestly the corner is the only one that has to be fixed, the joint is most likely from the appearence actually a sheen difference caused by painting over the caulk, a coat or two of paint may make it disappear. The picture doesnt convey if there is a significant difference from one edge of the joints height to the other side. A good trim carpenter has to be part magician sometimes to make things look right.

Hmmm. Had trouble with getting picture from smartphone. Here is is though.

rharshberger said:

"If a professional did the work, then only HE should be able to find the mistakes". Since he did the work he knows where he made mistakes. Honestly the corner is the only one that has to be fixed, the joint is most likely from the appearence actually a sheen difference caused by painting over the caulk, a coat or two of paint may make it disappear. The picture doesnt convey if there is a significant difference from one edge of the joints height to the other side. A good trim carpenter has to be part magician sometimes to make things look right.

Click to expand...

It's close to a quarter inch off at the bottom. Aligned at top. Not a sheen issue. Will try a new pic.

Remember, you are paying them for quality work to your satisfaction, not theirs. Have them fix the corner. You can legally withhold payment until they fix it.

Marc_G said:

It's close to a quarter inch off at the bottom. Aligned at top. Not a sheen issue. Will try a new pic.

Click to expand...

I meant the lateral joint (it has another name I am just drawing a blank), the corner is simply unacceptable.

You're the one paying the invoice, so you get to say if you're happy or not. Personally I am more in-line with Zues-cat, that corner is amateur at best, and I bet the carpenter knew this when he did it so it won't be a big surprise. The joints are livable but personally I would fix them unless they were located behind some furniture then I would let it ride.

rharshberger said:

"If a professional did the work, then only HE should be able to find the mistakes". Since he did the work he knows where he made mistakes. Honestly the corner is the only one that has to be fixed, the joint is most likely from the appearence actually a sheen difference caused by painting over the caulk, a coat or two of paint may make it disappear. The picture doesnt convey if there is a significant difference from one edge of the joints height to the other side. A good trim carpenter has to be part magician sometimes to make things look right.

Click to expand...

+1....

I think I am looking at things from a different angle,, ( get it,, get it,,,, angle,,,, awww ferget it )...
Agreed,, the lateral discrepancies are an easy fix,,,
to me that means you never should have seen them in the first place...
The corner is a very poor reflection on his carpentry skills...
Maybe it would be ok if he brought prospective new clients to your home
to sway them to give him work and show them that corner...
I am most certainly not saying you should be mean or disrespectful in the least..
You could just ask,, " you're not leaving that like that, are you"??

Teddy

The lateral joints are not tough to fix, and a pro should have caught that right away.

The corner is really poor workmanship. To call in amateur is an insult to weekend warriors everywhere.

I would not pay until fixed properly at no additional cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

rharshberger said:

I meant the lateral joint (it has another name I am just drawing a blank), the corner is simply unacceptable.

Click to expand...

It's called a scarf joint. That corner joint was done by a very lazy person; can't call them a carpenter. Joints like that should be coped, not simply mitered. The joint will almost certainly open over time. A coped joint will stay together (or help hide how it's opened up), a mitered joint will just fail.

1. No wall under 18ft long should EVER have a moulding joint! Period, unless owner is a cheap SOB who doesn't want to pay for left over trim. All sections should be one piece.

2. Corners can coped & shimmed to fit, and the uneven section should be to ceiling where it can be filled with caulk, painted white, WITH ceiling, to blend in barely noticeable.

3. If a joint must be [on wall, not corner]...then again it should be miter cut and shimmed to fit. Caulk can be done on top/bottom edge where it meets wall & will barely be noticed.

4. whoever did prep/painting should be shot, I can see poorly puttied nail holes in pics. Putty for nail holes, goes on raw wood, caulk goes on primed wood. Putty needs to be stiffened with whiting so it doesn't shrink & show.

I could do a dissertation for all this, just suffice to say I did this professionally & am a Master painter and worked with some of the finest Master carpenters in existence. The general rule is "no gap in any joint" if a sheet of paper on edge can go in joint...do it over.

I've walked off jobs where trim looked like yours, I refuse to attempt "fixes" on substandard work, that is associated with my name. Oh just wood fill it ...it'll look OK...no way in hell!

We have a name in the trade for people who do that type work...."jack-legs"

sooner.boomer said:

It's called a scarf joint. That corner joint was done by a very lazy person; can't call them a carpenter. Joints like that should be coped, not simply mitered. The joint will almost certainly open over time. A coped joint will stay together (or help hide how it's opened up), a mitered joint will just fail.

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Thanks Sooner, that's the word I was looking for. I have done many of them over the years but was having a brain cramp earlier.

My Dad builds houses as a hobby so over the years I have learned finish carpentry, electrical, plumbing, excavation, roofing....did I mention we do everything except vertical concrete. An inside corner should always be coped and a outside corner is mitered, coping is pretty tricky to get right if you aren't used to them.

blackjack2564 said:

1. No wall under 18ft long should EVER have a moulding joint! Period, unless owner is a cheap SOB who doesn't want to pay for left over trim. All sections should be one piece.

2. Corners can coped & shimmed to fit, and the uneven section should be to ceiling where it can be filled with caulk, painted white, WITH ceiling, to blend in barely noticeable.

3. If a joint must be [on wall, not corner]...then again it should be miter cut and shimmed to fit. Caulk can be done on top/bottom edge where it meets wall & will barely be noticed.

4. whoever did prep/painting should be shot, I can see poorly puttied nail holes in pics. Putty for nail holes, goes on raw wood, caulk goes on primed wood. Putty needs to be stiffened with whiting so it doesn't shrink & show.

I could do a dissertation for all this, just suffice to say I did this professionally & am a Master painter and worked with some of the finest Master carpenters in existence. The general rule is "no gap in any joint" if a sheet of paper on edge can go in joint...do it over.

I've walked off jobs where trim looked like yours, I refuse to attempt "fixes" on substandard work, that is associated with my name. Oh just wood fill it ...it'll look OK...no way in hell!

We have a name in the trade for people who do that type work...."jack-legs"

Click to expand...

Sad part is that today fewer young people are entering the apprenticeships where they can be taught to do craftsman work properly, I despise most truck driving schools for this reason, I am a Teamster!

rharshberger said:

An inside corner should always be coped and a outside corner is mitered, coping is pretty tricky to get right if you aren't used to them.

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Powered miter saws make chopping wood up so easy that everyone thinks they're a finish carpenter. Owning tools does not instruct you in their use. Owning tools does not make you a craftsman. Coping tricky? My 8th grade math teacher had a sign on the wall that said (in Latin) "We Learn By Doing". I think that applies to a lot of things...

rharshberger said:

Sad part is that today fewer young people are entering the apprenticeships where they can be taught to do craftsman work properly, I despise most truck driving schools for this reason, I am a Teamster!

Click to expand...

I don't know if it's a lack of schools or a lack of interest (chicken/egg).

Also reminds me of Albert J. Nock's essay "The Disadvantage of Being Educated". We now try to send every high school graduate on to college to be "educated". Perhaps what we need to do is to instead send them to trade school for training.

Thanks again guys. I will definitely send the project manager guy a note to have it fixed. I feel much better having my "pickiness" being validated as justified dissatisfaction wit substandard work.

Now, in the spirit of fairness, the guy that I think did the molding work did a FANTASTIC job on the tile. Perfect molding may not be his thing but check his work with marble:



The man worked like a beast for a month (including the molding work which was one day) to do the the tear-out and, redo some greenboard, put in the hardibacker on the shower and floor, and cut about a million pieces of marble.

OK, I'm off to a launch, if wind permits. It's kinda marginal today...

Marc

I worked as a union carpenter for 25 yes. The corner is not acceptable. The scarfjoints needed better prep,but could be sanded thon caulked or filled.

Beautiful shower Marc..
Good for you man..

Teddy

With anything, it depends what you paid him....but looking at the bathroom, I'm guessing you paid this dood good coin, so yea, I'd have him fix it.