New tracker range test result

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ksaves2 said:
Tracksoar as you know Les is APRS and is meant to fly in high altitude balloons. I think some have flown them in rockets but personally I'm still leary of that tiny patch GPS
antenna inside of a rocket that's going on a high dynamic flight. It has the limitations of APRS and of course requires a Ham license. Advantages: 300mw output and
can be received by any APRS rig for decoding. Probably better ground footprint than 900Mhz. Different antennas could be used in different projects and a good antenna with 300Mw is going to carry well on 2 meters. Disadvantages: That chip GPS receiver antenna, Ham license, only once every 5 second datastream and no network tracking as is designed into the featherweight project. The Ublox chipset is a good one although I think that's what the featherweight uses too. Kurt Savegnago KC9LDH
Click to expand...

Once every 5 seconds? What I found on the tracksoar site states
"It is able to report location, altitude, temperature pressure and humidity to the internet or direct to an amateur radio once a minute"
Once a minute is too slow for a launch - OK for a weather balloon though.....
 
What is the proposed receive antenna for the Featherweight GPS? The GPS receiver in the Tracksoar is a not a high performer, but in a test last night--I sat it outside in the back yard and turned it on. Within about 30 seconds, I had a lock on six satellites. A few misconceptions I can clear up as the owner of a Tracksoar:

A.) You can actually transmit data once every 4 seconds. While not exactly a firehose, that's pretty good-even for a rocket.
B.) The price of the receiver is a factor. Unless you're already a ham, and own HT's and mobiles that already have built in TNC's, etc.
C.) I've only flown the Tracksoar three times, in mid-power rockets. Nothing higher than 2,200 feet. But it performed well in those tests. Very few missed packets. It also offers the ability to be received by other amateurs and digipeted to the Internet without the need for a cellular or Wi-Fi network. Might be a factor for remote fields.
D.) The ham license is a barrier for some---but the test is a snap. Certainly no more difficult than the Level 2 test.
E.) The Featherweight software is not available for Android, and delivery date is uncertain.
F.) One has been on the market for a couple of years, the other is [ No Offense ] vaporware.

The developer of Tracksoar is poised to release a new hardware version in the coming months, with improved performance. No details yet on how it's improved. The software is open source--so lots of room for improvement if a user base is created and experiments. Developer is interested in HPR uses, and willing to work with the community. Featherweight has the advantage of developers being HPR flyers. Huge plus for them.

As I said, I'm sure I'll buy the Featherweight as soon as it's released for Android. Heck, I might buy an I-Phone just for this! :)
 
les said:
Once every 5 seconds? What I found on the tracksoar site states
"It is able to report location, altitude, temperature pressure and humidity to the internet or direct to an amateur radio once a minute"
Once a minute is too slow for a launch - OK for a weather balloon though.....
Click to expand...

Well APRS is configurable and if tracksoar is hard wired for once a minute that's too long. Usually the beacon rates can be changed in APRS trackers.
Lowest reliable I've hacked was once every three seconds but no rig is programmable for that. I did it in software on a tracking app.
Also if tracksoar is hardwired to 144.390 that's not good if one wants to go off the national frequency. Kurt
 
lowga said:
What is the proposed receive antenna for the Featherweight GPS?
Click to expand...

The ground receiver is another Featherweight unit. Any unit can be set up to have either the tracker or ground station role.

lowga said:
As I said, I'm sure I'll buy the Featherweight as soon as it's released for Android. Heck, I might buy an I-Phone just for this! :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support. More flight testing this weekend.

The next hardware production run is in progress, and I will have 250 units on hand in a few weeks. 60 of them will have a wire whip antenna, and 190 will have the standard stub antenna.

The DynaSoar seems like it's nicely optimized for high altitude balloons. APRS makes a lot of sense for that application because there are a lot of APRS repeaters on the ground across the country, so when your balloon is in the air, you're likely going to be able to get its location, even if it's far from your own receiver. But because APRS has a lot of users on a shared frequency, it's important for transmitters to transmit with a really low duty cycle, up to a few times per minute, so that the network doesn't get overloaded. Here's some more information if people are interested: https://www.aprs.net.au/vhf/australian-vhf-aprs-guidelines/

The digipeaters used by APRS are located on the ground, and so you may not have a line of sight from the APRS station to your rocket after landing. The unique capability of the Featherweight system is the ability to get a signal after landing by using other rockets (or drones or balloons) as airborne repeaters. The whole system is optimized around high powered rocketry, with a phone app that provides interesting data like vertical and horizontal velocity, plus the ability to monitor other people's flights on your own phone. Finally one big difference is the new LoRa radio, which provides much better signal sensitivity than the older modulation technique used in APRS.

Frequency: A lower frequency (longer wavelength) allows longer range all else being equal, but all else isn't equal. The LoRa modulation provides about 10x sensitivity improvement compared to the FSK modulation used by the older APRS system, and the radio allows for lower data rates than APRS. Together these allow about the same range for a given transmitter power output as the 2 meter band radios, but without requiring a HAM license, and without needing a long antenna. A quarter wave whip antenna for a 2 meter HAM band is about 19 inches long, vs about 3.3" for a 900 MHz whip antenna, or about 2.3 inches for the helical stub antenna that is standard for the Featherweight GPS tracker. This is how the Featherweight GPS tracker was able to maintain its link to a rocket that was 146,000 feet away, using the standard small stub antennas at both ends and just 25 mW of output power.
 
From your website and this thread, it looks like the minimum equipment for a complete tracking system consists of two tracker/receiver units and a plastic ground station receiver box for convenience/equipment protection. The user provides an iphone using an app. The iphone points to the rocket.

Do I have that right?
 
If this fits nicely in a Wildman Blackhawk 38 nosecone (and I bet it does), I’m in.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
o1d_dude said:
From your website and this thread, it looks like the minimum equipment for a complete tracking system consists of two tracker/receiver units and a plastic ground station receiver box for convenience/equipment protection. The user provides an iphone using an app. The iphone points to the rocket.

Do I have that right?
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly.
 
Thanks for explaining the differences Vs. the Tracksoar APRS application, Adrian. Can't wait to get one! The new modulation scheme makes great sense, and I love the ability to use other rockets and drones as airborne repeaters. Terrain is always an issue for those of us in the Southeast.

Please keep us posted on the progress of the Android Application. Question: If I purchased a set now, no reason why those wouldn't work with the Android app when it's developed in the future, right? In other words, you don't anticipate any significant hardware revisions?

Thanks!
 
lowga said:
Thanks for explaining the differences Vs. the Tracksoar APRS application, Adrian. Can't wait to get one! The new modulation scheme makes great sense, and I love the ability to use other rockets and drones as airborne repeaters. Terrain is always an issue for those of us in the Southeast.

Please keep us posted on the progress of the Android Application. Question: If I purchased a set now, no reason why those wouldn't work with the Android app when it's developed in the future, right? In other words, you don't anticipate any significant hardware revisions?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

The only question is the wait for an appropriate Android version. It might be prudent to wait to see how things turn out first before jumping in. Be patient and let others do the development. Kurt
 
Today our assembly house got done with the board assembly of the next 250 units. We’re still squashing bugs and working out the details of unit testing before we enable any ordering. The first release will be limited to a small early adopters list so that if there is a problem that can’t be fixed with over-the-air software updates, we have a manageable number of units to re-program via snail mail.

I’m planning to attend LDRS this year, staffing a small Featherweight Altimeters booth. Hopefully we will have Featherweight GPS trackers available for general sale in time for people to install them in their LDRS builds. Of course, I will admit I was also hoping to have a release done in time for Christmas, so feel free to take this with as much salt as you think appropriate. I should be able to put up an initial version of the user’s manual by the end of the weekend.
 
I'm ready to click the buy button whenever they go live. Congrats on getting the next batch built.
 
Adrian A said:
I’m planning to attend LDRS this year, staffing a small Featherweight Altimeters booth.
Click to expand...

This is good news, but I will have to keep an eye on Sharon, she is already planning several builds that include magnetic switches and GPS units.... Four is not enough.
 
Adrian A said:
Today our assembly house got done with the board assembly of the next 250 units. We’re still squashing bugs and working out the details of unit testing before we enable any ordering. The first release will be limited to a small early adopters list so that if there is a problem that can’t be fixed with over-the-air software updates, we have a manageable number of units to re-program via snail mail.

I’m planning to attend LDRS this year, staffing a small Featherweight Altimeters booth. Hopefully we will have Featherweight GPS trackers available for general sale in time for people to install them in their LDRS builds. Of course, I will admit I was also hoping to have a release done in time for Christmas, so feel free to take this with as much salt as you think appropriate. I should be able to put up an initial version of the user’s manual by the end of the weekend.
Click to expand...

Me, me, me, me, me, me!!! Oh crap, never mind. I don't own any Apple stuff but it's nice you're making something for those folks to use. Yeah, I know I can get a cheap, used
Apple phone and probably be able to use it without a sim. Heck, I got the tools to swap out the batteries as I did with an el cheapo (and flawed) Nexus 6p. Ok, so it's only
a quad core and not eight but works just the same rooted and I sure didn't pay no $800.00 for it!! Actually, I like the 7" and larger tablets to track. Easier for older eyes to see.
Especially if put inside a box the inside of which is painted flat black to prevent glare from overcoming a screen. Admittedly, I don't know how well Apple stuff is viewable in
direct sun but computers and the Android stuff I have need sun protection in order to see in the field. Kurt
 
The last few weeks have been tough because just when we thought the firmware was about ready to go, we ran into a bug that happens infrequently, but would make a unit non-functional until it's re-programmed. Well, we squashed that but and a few more, so we're getting ready to move on to the next testing phase. I'll be contacting people on the beta test list over the next few days to confirm that they are ready to go.

The other good news is that we've also checked one of the "advanced features" off on the list: Multi-stage support. Below are 2 screenshots from a single ground station being used to track two different trackers on two different frequencies. (Click on them to see them in full resolution)
Sustainer.jpg

Booster.jpg

The information for the Ground Station (the part that you keep with you) is on the left, and on the right the display shows data from the tracker that goes in your rocket. The colored bars in the middle indicate how many satellites are being tracked, and how strong their signals are. Orange bars are weak satellites, yellow bars are o.k. satellites, green bars are satellites with good signal strength, and blue bars are satellites with very good signal strength. In this demo, I was indoors under a metal roof with the ground station, which is why it is locked onto relatively few satellites. The trackers representing the booster and the sustainer stage are on the right, and they were outdoors with a clearer view of the sky. If you're wondering whether your carbon fiber nosecone will prevent good GPS performance, this screen can answer that for you at a glance.

The icons at the top left and top right, respectively, indicate that there is a connection from the phone to the ground station and from the ground station to the rocket. The battery voltages are also shown on this page, so you'll always know if your batteries are good to go.

To switch between displaying data from the two trackers, just select the other unit from the "wheel picker" at the bottom right. Of course, you can also use this feature to conveniently switch between trackers that you may have in several rockets. The "Booster" and "Sustainer" text is a public ID for your rocket that can be whatever you want it to be (up to 11 characters), like "Jims Saturn" or "AA Mongoo24." This ID will show up in an upcoming status page that you can use to follow along with other people's flights.
 
Adrian A said:
The last few weeks have been tough because just when we thought the firmware was about ready to go, we ran into a bug that happens infrequently, but would make a unit non-functional until it's re-programmed. Well, we squashed that but and a few more, so we're getting ready to move on to the next testing phase. I'll be contacting people on the beta test list over the next few days to confirm that they are ready to go.

The other good news is that we've also checked one of the "advanced features" off on the list: Multi-stage support. Below are 2 screenshots from a single ground station being used to track two different trackers on two different frequencies. (Click on them to see them in full resolution)
View attachment 343876

View attachment 343877

The information for the Ground Station (the part that you keep with you) is on the left, and on the right the display shows data from the tracker that goes in your rocket. The colored bars in the middle indicate how many satellites are being tracked, and how strong their signals are. Orange bars are weak satellites, yellow bars are o.k. satellites, green bars are satellites with good signal strength, and blue bars are satellites with very good signal strength. In this demo, I was indoors under a metal roof with the ground station, which is why it is locked onto relatively few satellites. The trackers representing the booster and the sustainer stage are on the right, and they were outdoors with a clearer view of the sky. If you're wondering whether your carbon fiber nosecone will prevent good GPS performance, this screen can answer that for you at a glance.

The icons at the top left and top right, respectively, indicate that there is a connection from the phone to the ground station and from the ground station to the rocket. The battery voltages are also shown on this page, so you'll always know if your batteries are good to go.

To switch between displaying data from the two trackers, just select the other unit from the "wheel picker" at the bottom right. Of course, you can also use this feature to conveniently switch between trackers that you may have in several rockets. The "Booster" and "Sustainer" text is a public ID for your rocket that can be whatever you want it to be (up to 11 characters), like "Jims Saturn" or "AA Mongoo24." This ID will show up in an upcoming status page that you can use to follow along with other people's flights.
Click to expand...



im ready to go.. Just saying...

Who do I send my money to?:lol::lol:
 
You said "multi-stage", but your example showed just two. How many stages does the "multi-stage" feature support?
 
FredT said:
You said "multi-stage", but your example showed just two. How many stages does the "multi-stage" feature support?
Click to expand...

That illustration was showing the ground station on one side and the sustainer (or booster) on the other. For multiple stages you have to select the stage you want displayed from the wheel picker. Because it can also be used to display multiple rockets I’m sure it’ll handle a bunch of stages.

Edit: going back in this conversation Kevin mentioned that somewhere between 1050 and 8400 units could be paired with many on a single frequency due to the other parameters that are used to distinguish individual rockets. You just give each stage it’s own name as if it’s a different rocket.
 
Last edited:
Steve Shannon said:
That illustration was showing the ground station on one side and the sustainer (or booster) on the other. For multiple stages you have to select the stage you want displayed from the wheel picker. Because it can also be used to display multiple rockets I’m sure it’ll handle a bunch of stages.
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly.
Steve Shannon said:
Edit: going back in this conversation Kevin mentioned that somewhere between 1050 and 8400 units could be paired with many on a single frequency due to the other parameters that are used to distinguish individual rockets. You just give each stage it’s own name as if it’s a different rocket.
Click to expand...

The LoRa frequency strategy we settled on provides 113 channels to choose from, with the plan being for one tracker to use a channel at a time. In the phone interface, you pick a tracker using the wheel picker, the Ground Station automatically switches to that frequency. At a launch, the ground stations tell each other what channels are in use to make it easy to find an open channel or to watch someone else's flight on your phone.
 
Will there be some way to specify which trackers are yours to filter them?
 
Last edited:
Ravenex said:
Will there be some way to specify which trackers are yours to filter them?
Click to expand...

Yes. Your units will be Bluetooth-paired to your phone, and both the phone and the units keep track of that pairing.

We haven't completed the user interface for how other people's rockets will be listed, but they will be in a list either on a different page or in a different section of the same list that has your own units. The picker wheel will either just have your own rockets, or will have your own rocket plus the last 1-3 "other" rockets you selected from the list.
 
ksaves2 said:
Me, me, me, me, me, me!!! Oh crap, never mind. I don't own any Apple stuff but it's nice you're making something for those folks to use. Yeah, I know I can get a cheap, used
Apple phone and probably be able to use it without a sim. Kurt
Click to expand...

Kurt, I realize you still might not be interested but I actually do most of my development and testing on a refurbished iPad I got on amazon for ~$200: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TA9FD2M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
kjs said:
Kurt, I realize you still might not be interested but I actually do most of my development and testing on a refurbished iPad I got on amazon for ~$200: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TA9FD2M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Click to expand...

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the pointer! My rocket activities have been down after a city sewer line backup in April 2017. Been dinking with trying to get Xastir working with Bluetooth peripherals using a Linux distro on Android. No dice as I'm just a script
kiddie. I like the larger tablets as they are easier to see in a box out in a field. A cardboard box, the inside of which is painted wlth flat black paint makes it easier to see a screen in the sun. Cuts down on the glare. Kurt Savegnago
KC9LDH
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I am aware LDRS in a few days away (I am in Oz so wont be attending). Have been eagerly watching the development and visit the website far to often hoping for “pre order”...

Looking forward to the release..
 

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