WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ANTI-DRAGRACE SENTIMENT???

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If multiple rockets in the air at the same time, and being able to track them, is the issue, then what about this? At MDRA, in order to keep the flights moving along and minimize wait time, once a rocket has drifted out of range of the pads, then we usually launch the next one. So at any given time, we have at least one coming down and one going up. Spectators will be watching the one going up (a lot more exciting, eh?), and so the one coming down gets forgotten.

Do we need a rule stating that no rocket can be launched while one is in the air? Or, that if you do, it counts as a drag race?

Well, of course the answer is no.
 
If multiple rockets in the air at the same time, and being able to track them, is the issue, then what about this? At MDRA, in order to keep the flights moving along and minimize wait time, once a rocket has drifted out of range of the pads, then we usually launch the next one. So at any given time, we have at least one coming down and one going up. Spectators will be watching the one going up (a lot more exciting, eh?), and so the one coming down gets forgotten.

Do we need a rule stating that no rocket can be launched while one is in the air? Or, that if you do, it counts as a drag race?

No, after the apogee event you can determine if it's a safety issue and move on.
 
If multiple rockets in the air at the same time, and being able to track them, is the issue, then what about this? At MDRA, in order to keep the flights moving along and minimize wait time, once a rocket has drifted out of range of the pads, then we usually launch the next one. So at any given time, we have at least one coming down and one going up. Spectators will be watching the one going up (a lot more exciting, eh?), and so the one coming down gets forgotten.

Do we need a rule stating that no rocket can be launched while one is in the air? Or, that if you do, it counts as a drag race?

Yea, pretty sure that you knew the answer to this was no, so why bother?

MDRA is pretty much the model to be emulated here. Rocket is launched, tracked to apogee (mainly by Neil who has the craziest eyesight I've ever witnessed), and once it is deemed to be out of harms way you can continue on.
 
Yea, pretty sure that you knew the answer to this was no, so why bother?

MDRA is pretty much the model to be emulated here. Rocket is launched, tracked to apogee (mainly by Neil who has the craziest eyesight I've ever witnessed), and once it is deemed to be out of harms way you can continue on.

I never thought drag races were a concern, so now I am questioning everything.
 
If multiple rockets in the air at the same time, and being able to track them, is the issue, then what about this? At MDRA, in order to keep the flights moving along and minimize wait time, once a rocket has drifted out of range of the pads, then we usually launch the next one. So at any given time, we have at least one coming down and one going up. Spectators will be watching the one going up (a lot more exciting, eh?), and so the one coming down gets forgotten.

Do we need a rule stating that no rocket can be launched while one is in the air? Or, that if you do, it counts as a drag race?


HARA and MC2 do things similarly; Once a rocket is under a controlled descent (parachute, glide, etc...) away from the flight line, its judged as safe, the owner or watcher for that rocket tracks it from there, and launching continues. At that point the issue has changed from the group "will someone be injured" to the individual "will I get my rocket back".

I personally think drag races can be fun with small motors, and impressive with the bigger ones. But more caution is certainly needed when there are more moving parts. That caution may be increased standoff distances, or assigned watchers per rocket, or some other safeguard that hasn't even been thought up.

Something mentioned in a previous thread on this topic is a valid consideration as well, although almost impossible to quantify: Go Fever
A big drag event has an appeal to it, and can draw people into making poor flight decisions (think about those three shreds from a previous video).

A forum member (I can't recall their handle atm) shared that a drag race flyer once told him right before countdown ~"I'll be surprised if it (the rocket) survives with this motor!"

That's the thought process that's almost impossible to prevent
-I have a built model of what's in the race.
-I can afford the motor being used in the race.
-My rocket may not be constructed with this motor in mind.
-My rocket hasn't flown on a motor of that power/thrust before.
-This could be really fun.
-I don't want to miss out on this event.

In my view, that's a recipe for disaster. They clearly talked the rocket through the RSO or it wouldn't be on the pad, but they did so with the knowledge that their rocket may not survive the stresses of the race motor. When the "I make Tube Fly with Fire!" sensation takes over, bad things can happen. [I think I still owe Steve Shannon a t-shirt with that on it]

It's an attitude thing. We can't regulate human nature (or lack of wisdom), so the only way to mitigate the risks that stem from it are to make up some other regulations in an attempt to reduce the damage.
 
My only point in all of this is that we as a self-regulating hobby owe it to ourselves to use proper care and caution when launching. Launching rockets one at a time is the baseline, acceptable level of risk that I think we can all agree to. If someone does not, do not attend. Multi-stage and cluster rockets do introduce additional uncertainty and risk, but are in the spirit of the "Real" rockets that this hobby emulates. Certain things can be done to make said rockets acceptably safe and it's the duty of the RSO, club, and national organization to mandate to regulate.

I just can't make the same argument for drag races. They certainly "enhance" the visual and auditory experience of a rocket launch, but it needs to be done in a prudent manner. There are sensible limitations that need to be in place.

You've made a cogent argument, for sure. It seems like we all agree that the real debate comes down to a single point of contention: whether drag races are acceptable or not. And on that point, as someone pointed out earlier, there's no data to support them being more dangerous and no data to support the contrary... Just no data. Which, in my opinion, would mean that the rule should've been left alone.

One point that hasn't been raised, that I believe should be raised... NFPA doesn't allow EX motors. Hence the "research launch" rules. Basically, TRA has one standard set of launch rules that follow NFPA, and another set of launch rules that are designed to set up safety rules that are outside the rules of NFPA anyway. So why make research launch rules outside NFPA and then make an argument that they should be "more" inline with NFPA. No one is advocating a change to the standard launch rules... Just a return to previous research launch rules.


MDRA is pretty much the model to be emulated here. Rocket is launched, tracked to apogee (mainly by Neil who has the craziest eyesight I've ever witnessed), and once it is deemed to be out of harms way you can continue on.

That's a slightly odd statement... That's the way every launch I've attended launches. TWA, WOOSH, URRG, QCRS. So... MDRA is not unique in their sequence... Except that we don't have a Neil. LoL!
 
I'll add a slight digression to this discussion to mention the NFPA (which is always accompanied by a thundercrack and the sound of horses whinnying :wink:). NFPA 1122, Code for Model Rocketry and NFPA 1127, Code for High Power Rocketry provide the basis for the NAR and Tripoli safety codes. Both organizations are represented on the technical committees that set the agenda for revisions to these documents. Anyone can follow along with all the fun and add comments and suggestions. Go to nfpa.org to set up a sign on/password to get free online access.

Procedures, Politics, Legalese OH MY !

FWIW the current drag race rules were part of the 2013 Revision Cycle.

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Something mentioned in a previous thread on this topic is a valid consideration as well, although almost impossible to quantify: Go Fever
A big drag event has an appeal to it, and can draw people into making poor flight decisions (think about those three shreds from a previous video).

A forum member (I can't recall their handle atm) shared that a drag race flyer once told him right before countdown ~"I'll be surprised if it (the rocket) survives with this motor!"

That's the thought process that's almost impossible to prevent
-I have a built model of what's in the race.
-I can afford the motor being used in the race.
-My rocket may not be constructed with this motor in mind.
-My rocket hasn't flown on a motor of that power/thrust before.
-This could be really fun.
-I don't want to miss out on this event.

In my view, that's a recipe for disaster. They clearly talked the rocket through the RSO or it wouldn't be on the pad, but they did so with the knowledge that their rocket may not survive the stresses of the race motor. When the "I make Tube Fly with Fire!" sensation takes over, bad things can happen. [I think I still owe Steve Shannon a t-shirt with that on it]

It's an attitude thing. We can't regulate human nature (or lack of wisdom), so the only way to mitigate the risks that stem from it are to make up some other regulations in an attempt to reduce the damage.

This.

I would love to see data sets comparing rates of success during drag races versus those same rates during single launches. You would have to control by things like club, complexity, recovery methods, and impulse class. Say you go through MDRA's launch records and compare flight results look at low power, motor eject flights and compare the rate of successful flights launching just one rocket to drag races rockets. Then repeat for mid power motor eject, high power motor eject, and high power with electronics. See if you actually get more bad results from drag races or not. Look at data from several clubs. It can be done, if someone gets a hold of the data and wants to take the time crunching numbers.
 
... Just no data.

We do have data. 1 fatality when multiple rockets were launched at the same time. No fatalities when signal rockets were launched (yet).

Now of course we can argue and handwave whether the multiple launch was a factor or not but data does exist.
 
We do have data. 1 fatality when multiple rockets were launched at the same time. No fatalities when signal rockets were launched (yet).

Now of course we can argue and handwave whether the multiple launch was a factor or not but data does exist.

That's not a statistically significant data set.
 
Aparently we all need to brush up on our range duty descriptions . What is the RSO ' s responsability ? What is the LCO's responsability ? I for one am all about having a set max of 2 rockets per drag race . Lets all be honest with ourselfs for a minute . If the rocket is not yours or you are not part of the flight , how many people go about there buisness after the boost and the first event ? I know I am guilty of it . If im working on a project , I concentrate on what I need to do to make sure my flight goes off without a hitch . I dont care about your flight unless it is a safty concern . I have been flying for over 20 years now . I have taken part in one 3 way drag race with BruiserEx's and 2 drags races. One was with L motors , one was with I motors . They are fun , but not always worth it . My L motor went to 7400 feet , his 2000 feet . His was under main just as mine was having its first event . After the launch , I never saw his rocket till it was back at his tent . Im watching mine , so if there was a issue I wouldnt have seen it till it was to late . Not only that , when you have almost a grand in the air , you dont want to take your eyes off your investment.

Eric

Lifetime member who wants to see the next generation enjoy it as much as I do.
 
We should wait until 4 or 5 more people die. Then we'll have some solid numbers to back up making a change.

Actually statistically we need about 7 people to die on one treatment combination and 0 on the other. If 1 dies on the other, then we need 20 people to die to statistically prove the theory its harder for a human brain to track multiple objects at once than just one.
 
Actually statistically we need about 7 people to die on one treatment combination and 0 on the other. If 1 dies on the other, then we need 20 people to die to statistically prove the theory its harder for a human brain to track multiple objects at once than just one.

This assumes a 1:1 ratio of drags to solo doesn't it?
 
This assumes a 1:1 ratio of drags to solo doesn't it?

Wait let me fire up Minitab and I will tell you. But you may be right since drags don't happen that often a chi-square test of proportions might only require 3-4 accidents like you estimated. But we would never get there before the insurance companies say, party's over fella's, buy trainsets.

Of course the risk difference assumes people are paying attention to the solo flights (at large launches I do not think everyone is). If that is the case there may be little difference than not be able to track 11 rockets in 12 rocket drag race or ignoring 12 consecutive solo launches.
 
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This whole thing is so depressing. Glad I'm now focusing on blues guitar, target shooting and getting back to a 2-handicap.

Ah, those were the good old days...
 


Thanks for the memory.....N-10,000 drag race at Red Gare. 4-way

I was all the way on right, & won it with the "Tiger Terror".....LOL

Mike? Tim Lehr-John Clifton- Jim Hendricksen

Burn out at 762ft... Mach 1.6 .... 76 g's..coasted to 11, 800 ft...ah those were the days. These were 12ft long-6in.diameter- 50+lbs rockets...not minimum dial. ones!

I participated in just about every Major drag race in Midwest and many others around the country & with my Australian mates, half way 'round the world.
Seems like everywhere we went [Tim & Jim] we had a major drag race AND most folks couldn't wait for the main event!

K-M skids in Thunder Down Under Australia 5-6way organized and ran
[Homer Hickam's first time drag race he ever saw. Later at banquet told everyone, Crazy Jim's drag race was BEST time he ever had on a rocket day!!

M-2200 Skid in Florida Winternational 3-way
J-something skid WinterNational's 5-way
M-2200 Skid in Southern Thunder. ran it 3-way
K-???? Southern Thunder ran it 8-way
N-2801 Skid Winternationals 2-way
M-2200 Skid NSL 2008 O'burg ran it. 2-way
2-stage Bong 2-way
N-10,000 Lucerne LDRS 7-way for TV
J-1999 12-way [I think] for TV
N-5800 MWP 12-way
M-2200 at Potter LDRS organized and ran it. 7 -way
L-900 Darkmatter LDRS Potter organize and ran 22 participants for TV

M-3100 MWP 11 entries
At least 7 more at MWP over the years.

The REAL famous 3 Ultimate Endeavors at Airfest.
If you saw, you remember. ran it.
Gizmo races every where we went that year at least 5 races.
NERFF had about 20 entrants.
Little D'Tter drag race....10 entrants NERRF
Little Dog Southern Thunder 12 entrants
Space Cowboy Fastest to 10,000 drag race 10 entrants LDRS for TV


And that's just the ones Pulled out of my brain in 5 minutes....there are many, many more!
Many were also great combo deals on kit/motor/reloads sponsored by Wildman. Got many a flier a 40-50% discount so they could afford the fun too.
Several of these were one of the main highlights of the launch week/weekend AND most remembered flights.
Always more fun than adults should be allowed to have.
Always still talked about/remembered when we sit around evenings taking about some of the best times had.
Always building excitement until the countdown!
Always fun...even if YOU had to wear "the Sunflower Dress" & do the walk of shame.
Always well run & attended.
Always safe results.....there's my stat's.:wink:
Guess what, NO injuries or even close calls.

Drag races been verrrrrry..... very good to me!
Yeah, some really great memories to share with many, many, many rocket buddies.....before "the day the music died"
Thanks for the memories Drag Races! I'll always love'm.

Naysayers go pound salt, 90% of the negative things here I read are pure BS crap & those writing it full well know it. You know who you are. You weren't even attending and are quoting here say.
Having been to most races discussed here..." cited quotes and incidents are BS".


Edit:
Closest I ever came to major injury [this case death] was a Alpha on C motor. Leaning on a trailer, aluminum side panels to keep out of cold, I was talking to a friend, maybe 3ft apart. Suddenly the Alhpa [black/orange plastic version] flying horizontal missed my head by inches....punched a hole clean through the Aluminum and plywood panel. Bounce off with NO damage...NONE.. and flew again later!.
Oh yeah reminds same day...ThunderStruck.....

M-2200 skid 4-way

Rules have changed. I may disagree with them, but our leaders have dictated what is to be & we must follow......just glad I got to have all the fun before they changed it.

Hey all the Wildmen out there ......do ya wanna drag race????? [it is part of the code...LOL]
 
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Was there a statement or press release somewhere about the new "rules" . I havent seen or heard anything . Where can I find them .

Eric

We put out announcements on the web page and explanations in the Tripoli Forum on May 7th when the new safety codes were released. Also, on the page where you download the codes we placed a link to marked up versions of the safety codes so members could see all the changes.
Look in the news section at the bottom of the web page here:
https://www.tripoli.org

And here is my post announcing the changes. There were also comments in the Tripoli Report. We really tried to get it out there. Is your email address correct in your profile with Tripoli?
https://www.tripoli.org/Forums/aft/386


Steve Shannon
 
Yes who is coming up with these new rules. I hear no one under the age of 18 is permitted at the HP pads. Is this true? Why do some people want to drive the membership down?

It's difficult combating rumors.
There were changes to the rules regarding who may be at the pad, but it's simply not true that nobody under 18 is permitted at the HPR pads. Non-members under 18 are not allowed at the HPR pads. Tripoli members from 12 to 18 who have passed the TMP test are allowed at the HPR pads with their mentors. The initial cost to join for that age group is $30, but renewals are only $20. TMP members are allowed to participate in projects up to the certification level of their mentor. There are explanations about those changes on the Tripoli Forums as well.


Steve Shannon
 
I don't think anyone got into the hobby strictly to drag race, so I don't see no one quitting the hobby because of it.
It is a shame, but instead of No Drag Racing...How about a mandatory distance between pads for safetly?
A minor at a high power pad is a good safety rule. However...
NO ONE under 18 is un-called for.
I can see it being at a more reasonable age, say the age of 12?
How else is our youth going to learn the ropes and made away of safety procedures?
And what about the Junior Certification Program?
How is this going to effect the program if one can't put their own rocket on the pad and turn on required electronics?
I can see the hobby loosing people here.
With anything, there are risks. Common sense comes to mind.
Foolishness has no place anywhere where safety risks are involve.
As well as Foolish Rules in a place where everyone uses common sense.


MClark, perhaps you are involved with the wrong hobby.
Perhaps you should join your local knitting club where you can mandate blunt needles so old ladies with Alzheimer's don't hurt themselves.

Woody,
I hope by now you will have gone and read the actual Safety Codes for yourself and found out that neither thing is true. Drag races have not been eliminated and 12-18 year old members of the members of the Tripoli Mentor Program are indeed allowed out at the HPR pads.
Steve


Steve Shannon
 
Here's my thoughts, whatever they're worth (copied from my FB response, so the specific references might not translate fully)
...
1) anyone tossing around the term "redneck" is obviously throwing insults around and needs to stop, we're all hobbyists, calling anyone names is simple childish.
2) the TRA board was disingenuous when they enacted these changes because a) there was no conversation with the Tripoli membership regarding the possible changes, b) they didn't outlaw drag races outright, they just made it ridiculously stupid launch distances, and c) there was zero precipitating event that caused this change in the rules.
3) this is a hobby, not rocket science. We're not scientists, we're hobbyists. If we play around with scientific stuff, that's because we're having fun doing it.
4) You're right, there's little or no point in drag races other than we like it. It could also be said that there's little or no point to launching rockets as a hobby anyway, so that point is completely moot (if you think otherwise, see point #3)
5) all the discussion about safety being compounded is based solely on conjecture because again, there was no precipitating event that initiated this change (see also, point #2c). What this means is that no drag race has ever (EVER) produced a more negative outcome than launching rockets one at a time.
6) Mass drag races are such a rare occurrence that it's clear this is a targeted rule change aimed squarely at a few clubs from a specific group of individuals
7) had there been an overwhelming push for this rule change from the membership, I'd keep my mouth shut.
8) I like drag races. They're fun to watch. Why are many of my fellow hobbyists so rudely condescending what I like to do? Should I make fun of the over-meticulous modeler because I think it's silly? No! It's all about whatever gets your rocks off because, you know... This is a hobby.
It's a friggin hobby, guys. A hobby. Like chess. Or boot-licking. Or wood carving. Whatever gets your goat, go for it. Reasonably. And for 40 years, drag races have been as reasonable as single launches.
All that said, let me remind everyone of my first point... Hold the insults, please. Let's just chat and launch some rockets, shall we?

We actually brought up the changes at the members meeting at LDRS in April. I realize that not everyone can attend LDRS, but we definitely brought it up as a discussion point, including the fact that due to the recent vote at NFPA we would remove the word "twice" from the HPR Safety Code, which actually reduced the "ridiculously stupid launch distances" to the Safe Launch complex distances that have existed for years.
So a drag race with 10 J motors takes place at the same distance as a cluster of 10 J motors.
The precipitating event that initiated this change was the change by the Technical Committee at NFPA to remove the word "twice" from the rule setting safe distances for mass launches.
There was no intent to target any group or any launch, merely an effort to make our Safety Codes consistent.


Steve Shannon
 
Well, you're pointing to a reason for an outright ban on drag races :)

I'll put a word in for supporting the distances.... I've watched flights and photographed them from a variety of distances. The further away you are...the easier it is to track the entire flight, and multiple rockets. it's an angle and apparent speed thing.

David,
I absolutely agree with your second paragraph. When multiple rockets go up it's easier to see if one veers off and it's easier to continue tracking that one if viewing from a greater distance.
If a person does not see the up part of a flight, it's much more difficult to acquire a rocket (in my sight at least), especially one coming in ballistic.
Steve


Steve Shannon
 
Sorry I'm late to the party.

Didn't the wording in NFPA 1127 4.16.3.3 change a year or so ago?

I'm sure we already had this discussion here quite some time ago.

As for me, I'm all for putting safety first. I'm fine with the multi-launch distances in the current regs.

If the club or the RSO says no Drag Races, or no sparkies, or no kids at the high-power pads, we all know the drill - The RSO has the final say - even if they are more restrictive than the safety code or NFPA.

That's my :2:

... oh yeah, one more thing. Even though I'm only 14, I fully understand the danger, I get it. I watched that MWP9 drag race in person, I was there. Most of the ballistic recoveries I have witnessed over the few years I have attended High-Power launches have involved single rockets - single launches. My personal opinion is the focus needs to be on reducing recovery fails.

Sabrina,
You are truly wise!
Steve


Steve Shannon
 
The distance from spectators only provides protection from CATO's and events occurring very close to the ground, whether it's 1 rocket or 1,000 rockets . No distance between pad and crowd can replace sensible practices. Having multiple rockets in the air without the reasonable expectation the spectators can track all of them concurrently is increasing the risk to those spectators, plain and simple.

A rocket that has nominally deployed and lands in the spectator area is a significant hazard to participants. That hazard can be reasonably mitigated and reduced to a property damage threat versus a bodily harm threat with proper tracking and notification procedures. The same cannot be said for mass launches pushing the envelope of materials/electronics/etc. A drag race containing multiple HPR rockets (especially >5, if I must put a number on it) is gross negligence, in my opinion.

I appreciate the work of all the governing bodies of this hobby. You're tasked with representing a hobby, meaning you've transcended the "fun" portion of the hobby and made it a lot more like "work." You're tasked with making decisions and self-regulating with common sense and tact while making sure that the rules satisfy the insurance policy that we operate within. By doing this you align "fun" with "safety," which is critically important.

Thank you for understanding. We'll never please everyone, but that's not the job.


Steve Shannon
 
You've made a cogent argument, for sure. It seems like we all agree that the real debate comes down to a single point of contention: whether drag races are acceptable or not. And on that point, as someone pointed out earlier, there's no data to support them being more dangerous and no data to support the contrary... Just no data. Which, in my opinion, would mean that the rule should've been left alone.

One point that hasn't been raised, that I believe should be raised... NFPA doesn't allow EX motors. Hence the "research launch" rules. Basically, TRA has one standard set of launch rules that follow NFPA, and another set of launch rules that are designed to set up safety rules that are outside the rules of NFPA anyway. So why make research launch rules outside NFPA and then make an argument that they should be "more" inline with NFPA. No one is advocating a change to the standard launch rules... Just a return to previous research launch rules.




That's a slightly odd statement... That's the way every launch I've attended launches. TWA, WOOSH, URRG, QCRS. So... MDRA is not unique in their sequence... Except that we don't have a Neil. LoL!

I'm only responding to your second paragraph. Please read the introduction and administration portion of the Research Safety Code. We don't have separate rules for research. Our Research Safety Code builds on top of the existing NFPA 1127 and HPR Safety Code. Here's how it starts out:
This Safety Code augments the Tripoli High-Power Safety code and defines the rules and polices that are unique to Tripoli’s Research Launches. The High-Power Safety Code defines the base set of rules and policies for all Tripoli Sanctioned Launches. The High-Power Safety Code covers the operation of Research Launches unless explicitly superseded by the rules and polices of the Research Safety Code.
We don't get to completely disregard 1127 in our Research Safety Code. As far as allowing Research motors, I believe that's actually provided for within NFPA 1127 in the "other than" clause in part 5 of chapter 6, prohibited activities.


Steve Shannon
 
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