WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ANTI-DRAGRACE SENTIMENT???

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You're correct. Because a person can do anything at a research launch that he or she could do at a commercial launch, why differentiate?
John DeMar had a couple of good reasons why having different codes makes sense and I respect him immensely.

Steve, what if the research safe distances were adopted for all launches?That is the main difference between the codes. What issues would that cause?

I too have come to have a lot of respect for John Demar- a very knowledgeable person.

As to safety I would argue that we should all be safety minded- it should not matter if it is commercial or research. I am not sure what benefit having the separate codes does to enhance that.
 
Don't agree. I went through the comparison a decade ago. NAR was too restrictive and did not meet my needs. Tripoli fit the bill for what I was pursuing in rocketry. Why combine the two and go back to a milk toast compromise? It is unnecessary and further alienates those with specific interests.

Badminton anyone? (people are trying to convince me it is fun and exciting)

i am so confused by your anger.....
 
Steve, what if the research safe distances were adopted for all launches?That is the main difference between the codes. What issues would that cause?

I too have come to have a lot of respect for John Demar- a very knowledgeable person.

As to safety I would argue that we should all be safety minded- it should not matter if it is commercial or research. I am not sure what benefit having the separate codes does to enhance that.

For the smaller motors that is quite a difference. The Safe Launch Practices lists all the different distances:
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/SLP 2017.pdf
 
I understand the distance tables. What I was getting at is what problems might it cause? If we went to the research distances for all launches would that represent/cause a problem? It simplifies the rules by having one distance table.

It does, but based on the hue and cry over making drag races follow the complex safe distances for total installed impulse, I'm guessing nobody would want their H123 motors launching from 200 feet instead of the NFPA required 100 ft. So my thought was that we might continue flying commercial motors at their minimum distances and research motors at theirs. They only really differ in the small motors.
For various reasons, some demonstrated here last night, I don't think we're ready for a single Tripoli Safety Code anyway. But it's an interesting concept to discuss.
 
I understand the distance tables. What I was getting at is what problems might it cause? If we went to the research distances for all launches would that represent/cause a problem? It simplifies the rules by having one distance table.

For the folks out west who have fields measured in miles, nothing. Out east (And Potter does not really count as "east"). It becomes a bit more challenging. My question is why is there a mandate for different distances for EX vs Commercial? Do we really think that if like sized commercial and Ex motors catastrophically fail they will have different, for lack of a better phrase, blast zones? The distance only seems to apply to motors. I personally would rather see a difference for the case when people use home grown recovery electronics. I have way less concern with respect to a rocket going bang on the pad or disintegrating on the way up than on an uncontrolled trip back. The downward trip on an unproven system makes me much more queasy.

Oddly the discussion has drifted way from the OP about drag races. As I see it both organizations need to adhere to the appropriate NFPA ruling concerning multiple launches. I do find it mildly disconcerting that there is the possibility that our organizational leadership fostered the rule change that resulted in the restrictions without the input of the membership. That is why I suggested an RFP process. That does not mean we vote on everything. What it does mean is that every board level transaction that affects the membership's activities is above board and open for discussion. I do believe there is a place for both organizations. NAR has traditionally catered to a slightly more conservative group along with the contest enthusiasts. My take on TRA is it started when a certain group wanted to color outside the lines. Those two groups still exist and as such both organizations have their purpose. BTW, I think the leadership of both organizations have a tendency to pat us on the head and tell to not worry as they are taking care of things. And whenever the term "executive session" is invoked, my skin crawls. I do not believe the elected leadership of either organization has the privilege of keeping secrets from the member base.

I, for one, do not care much for the mass launches for many of the reasons that have been mentioned in various locations (and I have participated in a few). No, I don't want them banned nor I am not going to pack up my stuff and go home if one takes place. My main objection is that regardless of the distances used, they are disruptive to the flow at an event and can deny pad time to folks who are not interested in the activity. I do see an elevated safety risk inherent in them for many reasons, so I do believe steps should be taken to offset that risk and increased distances is the easiest one to take (and not necessarily the most convenient).
 
For the folks out west who have fields measured in miles, nothing. Out east (And Potter does not really count as "east"). It becomes a bit more challenging. My question is why is there a mandate for different distances for EX vs Commercial? Do we really think that if like sized commercial and Ex motors catastrophically fail they will have different, for lack of a better phrase, blast zones? The distance only seems to apply to motors. I personally would rather see a difference for the case when people use home grown recovery electronics. I have way less concern with respect to a rocked going bang on the pad or disintegrating on the way up than on an uncontrolled trip back. The downward trip on an unproven system makes me much more queasy.

Oddly the discussion has drifted way from the OP about drag races. As I see it both organizations need to adhere to the appropriate NFPA ruling concerning multiple launches. I do find it mildly disconcerting that there is the possibility that our organizational leadership fostered the rule change that resulted in the restrictions without the input of the membership. That is why I suggested an RFP process. That does not mean we vote on everything. What it does mean is that every board level transaction that affects the membership's activities is above board and open for discussion. I do believe there is a place for both organizations, NAR has traditionally catered to a slightly more conservative group along with the contest enthusiasts. My take on TRA is it started when a certain group wanted to color outside the lines. Those two groups still exist and as such both organizations have their purpose. BTW, I think the leadership of both organizations have a tendency to pat us on the head and tell to not worry as they are taking care of things. And whenever the term "executive session" is invoked, my skin crawls. I do not believe the elected leadership of either organization has the privilege of keeping secrets from the member base.

I, for one, do not care much for the mass launches for many of the reasons that have been mentioned in various locations (and I have participated in a few). No, I don't want them banned nor I am not going to pack up my stuff and go home if one takes place. My main objection is that regardless of the distances used, they are disruptive to the flow at an event and can deny pad time to folks who are not interested in the activity. I do see an elevated safety risk inherent in them for many reasons, so I do believe steps should be taken to offset that risk and increased distances is the easiest one to take (and not necessarily the most convenient).

Well said, Al.
I asked why the research distances were 200 instead of 100. Stu told me about a time when a G catoed and sent case pieces past their heads at 100 ft. So that was done based on empirical evidence.
 
Well said, Al.
I asked why the research distances were 200 instead of 100. Stu told me about a time when a G catoed and sent case pieces past their heads at 100 ft. So that was done based on empirical evidence.
Surely you jest! That's it, that's the reason? One example? When and where did this take place? So you are saying there is no math, no science, just a single experience that set the distance at 200 feet? Surely someone can come up with a 'QD' that can calculate how far a piece of aluminum motor case can fly and still have worrisome energy.

I guess I always thought the rules were based on rocket science, not some guys standing around in a field!


Tony

ps: I know for test stands for 'real' rocket engines there is a 'QD' (qualitative distance?) beyond which any metal thrown by an explosion would have lost sufficient energy/velocity to no longer be dangerous. Of course any heavy piece of metal falling out of the sky is dangerous regardless of speed, but the QD takes into account how far such a piece of metal could be thrown by the explosion. I guess I thought someone had done something similar for a typical EX motor case
 
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Surely you jest! That's it, that's the reason? One example? When and where did this take place? So you are saying there is no math, no science, just a single experience that set the distance at 200 feet? Surely someone can come up with a 'QD' that can calculate how far a piece of aluminum motor case can fly and still have worrisome energy.

I guess I always thought the rules were based on rocket science, not some guys standing around in a field!


Tony

ps: I know for test stands for 'real' rocket engines there is a 'QD' (qualitative distance?) beyond which any metal thrown by an explosion would have lost sufficient energy/velocity to no longer be dangerous. Of course any heavy piece of metal falling out of the sky is dangerous regardless of speed, but the QD takes into account how far such a piece of metal could be thrown by the explosion. I guess I thought someone had done something similar for a typical EX motor case

There may be more, but this is all that I've been told. In any case it seemed to indicate that 100 feet was insufficient.
 
Surely you jest! That's it, that's the reason? One example? When and where did this take place? So you are saying there is no math, no science, just a single experience that set the distance at 200 feet? Surely someone can come up with a 'QD' that can calculate how far a piece of aluminum motor case can fly and still have worrisome energy.

I guess I always thought the rules were based on rocket science, not some guys standing around in a field!


Tony

ps: I know for test stands for 'real' rocket engines there is a 'QD' (qualitative distance?) beyond which any metal thrown by an explosion would have lost sufficient energy/velocity to no longer be dangerous. Of course any heavy piece of metal falling out of the sky is dangerous regardless of speed, but the QD takes into account how far such a piece of metal could be thrown by the explosion. I guess I thought someone had done something similar for a typical EX motor case

Under what case pressurization? Nominal or off-nominal, and how do you determine the values for that calculation?
(spoiler: I've done QD calculations for rocket test stands :) )

For EX motors, I get the impression many use BurnSim or some formula to "determine" their pressures, thrust output, and impulse. They then perform no static testing and stick the motor in a rocket. Without some valid data, such a QD would be pure assumption and marginally less useful than the observation: "Dang! that case fragment flew pretty far! Let's back up the standoff distance a bit..."
 
I think there is only one way to settle all this bickering...we should have a drag race!!

I have never been in a drag race but after reading this thread I want to. I also want to join TRA and fly EX motors too.
 
Should I use 5 minute or 30 minute epoxy for assembling a rocket for a drag race?
Or would Titebond be okay?

M
 
I think there is only one way to settle all this bickering...we should have a drag race!!

I have never been in a drag race but after reading this thread I want to. I also want to join TRA and fly EX motors too.

You should join TRA and move up to the higher power.
 
Surely you jest! That's it, that's the reason? One example? When and where did this take place? So you are saying there is no math, no science, just a single experience that set the distance at 200 feet? Surely someone can come up with a 'QD' that can calculate how far a piece of aluminum motor case can fly and still have worrisome energy.

I guess I always thought the rules were based on rocket science, not some guys standing around in a field!


Tony

ps: I know for test stands for 'real' rocket engines there is a 'QD' (qualitative distance?) beyond which any metal thrown by an explosion would have lost sufficient energy/velocity to no longer be dangerous. Of course any heavy piece of metal falling out of the sky is dangerous regardless of speed, but the QD takes into account how far such a piece of metal could be thrown by the explosion. I guess I thought someone had done something similar for a typical EX motor case


If I recall, the viewing stands for visitors for the Saturn V launches was 3 miles away. That distance was calculated based on if a Sat V had a cato, 3 miles was the furthest a 50 pound piece of metal would be thrown. You would still need to duck for the 30 pound pieces......
 
Well said, Al.
I asked why the research distances were 200 instead of 100. Stu told me about a time when a G catoed and sent case pieces past their heads at 100 ft. So that was done based on empirical evidence.

Goodness this is a test I so want to do. Set up a large field (Black Rock maybe) and blow up a bunch of motors to see what info we can derive from the fragmentation patterns. A new committee could be formed. We have S&T, now we can have C&M (carnage and mayhem).

Oh the possibilities...
 
Goodness this is a test I so want to do. Set up a large field (Black Rock maybe) and blow up a bunch of motors to see what info we can derive from the fragmentation patterns. A new committee could be formed. We have S&T, now we can have C&M (carnage and mayhem).

Oh the possibilities...

I distinctly recall a similar exercise being done by John Coker back in the day regarding sparkies to see how far the Ti was dispersed.

https://jcrocket.com/magnum.shtml Scroll down to "Turkey Shoot 2000."
 
Goodness this is a test I so want to do. Set up a large field (Black Rock maybe) and blow up a bunch of motors to see what info we can derive from the fragmentation patterns. A new committee could be formed. We have S&T, now we can have C&M (carnage and mayhem).

Oh the possibilities...

i recently blew up an ex 54/1600. Blew the forward, pressure hit the booster and turned it into postage stamps. The camera was recvoered closest to the flight line, and it made it half way. Case went straight down. To be fair, we never found the forward bulkhead. But the way cases seem to fail, it's an up and down event.

Av-bay and payload recovered under chute, all charges fired even with the bulkhead hitting the av bay.
 
[video=youtube;bdcE3VyKv5U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdcE3VyKv5U[/video]

If I recall, the viewing stands for visitors for the Saturn V launches was 3 miles away. That distance was calculated based on if a Sat V had a cato, 3 miles was the furthest a 50 pound piece of metal would be thrown. You would still need to duck for the 30 pound pieces......
 
i recently blew up an ex 54/1600. Blew the forward, pressure hit the booster and turned it into postage stamps. The camera was recvoered closest to the flight line, and it made it half way. Case went straight down. To be fair, we never found the forward bulkhead. But the way cases seem to fail, it's an up and down event.

Av-bay and payload recovered under chute, all charges fired even with the bulkhead hitting the av bay.

Did almost the exact same thing a week ago with a commercial J1299. However I am talking about serious mayhem here! I want to see something just this side of a grenade range. If we are setting standards based on minimal data, then we as a bunch of "Rockit Scyentysts" should have some data to support what we are doing.

I had actually heard that the reason we use 1500' for the distance to buildings and roads for HPR is that was the estimated distance a G80 would fly horizontally (I believe Trip told me that one).

I do know we should be very careful about asking for data driven safety standards. We could end up surprised and find that the true safe distances are actually farther than what we have been using.
 
I do know we should be very careful about asking for data driven safety standards. We could end up surprised and find that the true safe distances are actually farther than what we have been using.

This! I won't add any examples :duck:
 
Sounds a bit short for an angled G flight IMHO. Probably not the reason.

It was anecdotal to me. I had been asking everyone I could find in organizational leadership why I could essentially fly a G80 in my back yard and have to increase the perimeter by several times to fly a baby H. I was pushing for a graduated system. Gave up after being patted on the head one time too many.
 
Goodness this is a test I so want to do. Set up a large field (Black Rock maybe) and blow up a bunch of motors to see what info we can derive from the fragmentation patterns. A new committee could be formed. We have S&T, now we can have C&M (carnage and mayhem).

Oh the possibilities...

Al, all joking aside having actual data on how far fragments can fly would not be a bad thing to have. Actual data wins.

The issue becomes one of methodology. How do you actually conduct a burst test safely? I would love to hear ideas on that.
 
Al, all joking aside having actual data on how far fragments can fly would not be a bad thing to have. Actual data wins.

The issue becomes one of methodology. How do you actually conduct a burst test safely? I would love to hear ideas on that.

Well, just set it up at the current safe distances....
 
Well, just set it up at the current safe distances....

Which ones, research or commercial?

I'm so confused...


I know, let's average all the distances - research, commercial, mass launch, single launch, and come up with one distance for all launches that makes everyone mad.
 

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