WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ANTI-DRAGRACE SENTIMENT???

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jsdemar said:
It is difficult to take this thread seriously when it began with misinformation, and continues on with whining. It is ultimately the responsibility of the rocket flyer to understand the rules and regulations. Membership in a national organization provides access to the information, the benefit of insurance coverage, representation at the complex levels of regulation, and an educational structure to the hobby. It doesn't include spoonfeeding for those who think the World revolves only around their Facebook feed.
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Baloney. I'm a part of several different national organizations. Some are far larger and some are smaller than TRA.
None of them have any problem communicating forthcoming/possible changes to their members. In fact, it's a part of their mission statement, to keep members informed. Because that's what an organization does. Without it's members, it's nothing.
Further... Enough with the insults. Your spoon-feeding Facebook comment is exactly the kind of derision that I'm personally tired of. Just because I have a different point of view and a different opinion doesn't mean that you can bully your way to convincing me of anything. You've made assumptions about people based on zero fact and then tossed them around in insult form... Why? What, exactly, did your comment add to the conversation other than pettiness?

The absolute least I would expect from the president of an organization I pay dues to annually would be some acknowledgement that our complaints will be taken into consideration for their face value. Some acknowledgement that we have valid points. What's more, I would expect him to tell members to not insult one another. I would expect these things because any leadership role in any organization is one of service. They are elected to serve the members not their own agenda. So at least maintaining that illusion would be a bare minimum. Continued refusal to just say, "thanks for the input, we'll take that into consideration," reveals a contempt that I just didn't expect at all. Nonetheless, there it is... So... Yep. Drag races are dead unless you have a club with lots of equipment and lots of space. And when we complain about it, the response boils down to, "tough cookies, deal with it." Fair enough, I guess. By the same token, I'll admit that my argument boils down to, "I wish I would've known it was going to change because I've got some valid points I would've raised had I known that my input was going to be needed." Sure, I could've browsed the rule/NFPA website every so often to see what was being discussed, you're right. I guess I just didn't because I assumed that any major changes being considered would've been announced. I assumed, and I was wrong to do so. So yeah, I guess it is just tough cookies for me.
And maybe I'll go ahead and help a better candidate run for TRA Board next go-around because this board clearly doesn't carry my opinion into their discussions and doesn't seem interested in asking for my opinion (or anyone's opinion, for that matter). So that needs to change.
 
CzTeacherMan said:
Snipped...........
And maybe I'll go ahead and help a better candidate run for TRA Board next go-around because this board clearly doesn't carry my opinion into their discussions and doesn't seem interested in asking for my opinion (or anyone's opinion, for that matter). So that needs to change.
Click to expand...

Why don't you run instead of having someone else push your agenda?

.
 
MClark said:
Why don't you run instead of having someone else push your agenda?

.
Click to expand...

Honestly? Because I'm too much of an a**hole to win enough votes... I'm well aware of my defects.
It wouldn't be having someone else push "my agenda," it would be finding someone who shares a similar view of the hobby, the organization, and the mission, and helping them get their voice out there. Someone who's much better at communicating without the edge that I tend to have... Based on this thread alone, two things are clear: 1) I'm not ”the only one" in this perspective, and 2) there are people much more suited to leadership than I am.
 
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CzTeacherMan said:
Honestly? Because I'm too much of an a**hole to win enough votes... I'm well aware of my defects.
It wouldn't be having someone else push "my agenda," it would be finding someone who shares a similar view of the hobby, the organization, and the mission, and helping them get their voice out there. Someone who's much better at communicating without the edge that I tend to have... Based on this thread alone, two things are clear: 1) I'm not ”the only one" in this perspective, and 2) there are people much more suited to leadership than I am.
Click to expand...

That is an honest answer.
 
I'd say Steve has been very communicative, and very visible.

Throwing insults at the members putting time into running this organization because they made a decision you didn't like, when you had your head in the sand, and then screaming that you weren't asked what you thought.... Well I think we all see that for what it is.
 
DavidMcCann said:
I'd say Steve has been very communicative, and very visible.

Throwing insults at the members putting time into running this organization because they made a decision you didn't like, when you had your head in the sand, and then screaming that you weren't asked what you thought.... Well I think we all see that for what it is.
Click to expand...

I've not insulted anyone. Not once, David. But thanks for your input!
 
David how long have you been a TRA member? I have been a TRA member for about 30 years. TRA has done things for years that has up set the membership. This doesn't surprise me at all. Us old guys still talk about the HPR magazine problem which went on for years. Not once was the membership asked for their option on how to handle the problem. The problem was taking money out of the members pockets. So why not send out snail mail when rules are changed. You could still do email, Facebook or what ever else.
 
crossfire said:
David how long have you been a TRA member? I have been a TRA member for about 30 years. TRA has done things for years that has up set the membership. This doesn't surprise me at all. Us old guys still talk about the HPR magazine problem which went on for years. Not once was the membership asked for their option on how to handle the problem. The problem was taking money out of the members pockets. So why not send out snail mail when rules are changed. You could still do email, Facebook or what ever else.
Click to expand...

Around 5 years. I don't see how that factors at all in this discussion.

I'm going to assume the rules have changed before in the last 30 years. Have you pushed to have it added to the bylaws that all membership receive a mailing prior to any rule change, or that a vote of membership be taken prior to the bod doing anything? Or do we elect the BoD to make those choices for us? I honestly don't know, I don't have a copy of the by laws handy.
 
Sorry I was away doing other things.
You're right; I did not tell people to be civil. I expect they should already know that. I've tried to lead by example in that regard.
Although I didn't say so it did mean something to me when you said we don't communicate well. That has been one of the things I want to improve in our organization. That's why I posted a significant announcement on the Tripoli website when these changes came out two weeks into my presidency. That's why the board placed redline versions of the safety codes on the website. That's also why the very next issue of The Tripoli Report, sent by email to all current members, included an announcement about the revised codes. Short of calling you personally I'm not sure how we could have been more communicative.
As far as member input before the changes, maybe you ought to go look at the thread here on TRF from late last year about the NFPA changes. I participated and paid attention to the input from people here, whether they were TRA members or not.
 
DavidMcCann said:
Around 5 years. I don't see how that factors at all in this discussion.

I'm going to assume the rules have changed before in the last 30 years. Have you pushed to have it added to the bylaws that all membership receive a mailing prior to any rule change, or that a vote of membership be taken prior to the bod doing anything? Or do we elect the BoD to make those choices for us? I honestly don't know, I don't have a copy of the by laws handy.
Click to expand...

Yes maybe a mailing would help out for at least a rule change after its done with. All I hear for TRA each year is letter for renewal and a card for voting which I have done for 30 years. We as members are TRA not just the people that are voted to the BOD. I really am glad the BOD are able to do the job they do. I am done with this post unless others are still getting slammed and insulted than I will fire back my thoughts.
 
Serious question: is there anything forbidding members from proposing any "redlines" or "deltas" to our ruleset be physically mailed with the renew/vote packet? How would someone go about it?
 
Steve Shannon said:
Sorry I was away doing other things.
You're right; I did not tell people to be civil. I expect they should already know that. I've tried to lead by example in that regard.
Although I didn't say so it did mean something to me when you said we don't communicate well. That has been one of the things I want to improve in our organization. That's why I posted a significant announcement on the Tripoli website when these changes came out two weeks into my presidency. That's why the board placed redline versions of the safety codes on the website. That's also why the very next issue of The Tripoli Report, sent by email to all current members, included an announcement about the revised codes. Short of calling you personally I'm not sure how we could have been more communicative.
As far as member input before the changes, maybe you ought to go look at the thread here on TRF from late last year about the NFPA changes. I participated and paid attention to the input from people here, whether they were TRA members or not.
Click to expand...

First, if it was in the Tripoli report prior to the rule being changed, I don't remember. I read those religiously, and I only remember seeing something after action had already been taken. If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.
Second, I was a part of that thread and I followed it closely. But, as you pointed out, TRF isn't exactly a good forum for Tripoli feedback/input, hence my advocating for a simple request for input that could easily be set up via Google forms or some similar app.
Third, an I really hope you can hear this as an honest critique, posting anything to the website is really a poor way to notify anyone of anything. Posting to the website, you're assuming that Tripoli members frequent the website as a means of communication, and honestly, I don't think they do. I hardly ever visit the website because, well, it's not very useful. I have no problem with posting info to the website, but getting a heads up to go to the website would be helpful. Like in the Tripoli report... Just something that said, "by the way, we're looking at our safety code, specifically drag races and age of people allowed at the pads, go to the website for full details and to send your feedback." If that simple line were in the Tripoli Report, I would've gone to the site, read up on the info, and given my input. So, if info was posted (passive communication) prior to the rule change and then announced in the Tripoli Report (active communication) after it had been changed, I hope you can understand how that looks from my perspective... It looks like the asking for input was just as a token action and not serious. Again, it's not an attack, it's a valid complaints about the way Tripoli Board functions. Please take it as that, just a critique that, I hope, leads to some reflection and improvement.
Lastly, I'm fully willing to help. I basically run the logistical side of the ICCA which takes most of my life from October through February. I run several websites and do tons of minute-taking and reporting to members.
I've not intended any of my comments as attacks, though sometimes my tone gets away from me because I'm an emotional guy... I honestly wish the process would've gone down differently so that my input and the input of other members would've been heard before changes were made. The rule change has made it so that one of the coolest parts of my favorite launch is gone. I think that, had the process been done differently, we could've come up with a better change that would've been a better compromise between the two positions.

Everything else aside, if we can improve the process of communication between the board and the members, everyone wins... Drag races or no drag races.
 
My question is - does TRA do a RFC process on rule changes along the lines of how the NAR does contest rule changes? If not, why? If so, how do they get announced and what is the comment process?
 
CzTeacherMan said:
The rule change has made it so that one of the coolest parts of my favorite launch is gone. I think that, had the process been done differently, we could've come up with a better change that would've been a better compromise between the two positions.
Click to expand...

I think something everyone is forgetting, is you can still drag race. If you and others feel it so strongly represents the sport and the fun.... all you have to do is modify launch operations to accommodate it. To be technical, TRA is not saying no to drags, the clubs are saying no to the distance required. find a way to deal with that, and you can have drags.

For our launch site, I see a couple ways to deal with it, and the difficulty depends on the number of rockets. To have a large drag, it would be easiest to have it either as a stand alone launch, or on a weekend launch that is typically less populated.

To do it at a major launch, it would be a bit more complex, and involve some help. Get another club to bring out their pads and launch gear, and setup a drag cell at 2,000' If you're concerned it won't be cool enough at that distance, use bigger motors. ;)

With a wireless system, a trailer and a pickup truck, you could in theory tear down say, the right bank of pads at a major launch, drag it out and set it up at 2,000' and then pull it back in after the launch. The hard part with that is to keep the disruption down, you're going to have to tear down, pack up the pads and reset them in the original location before recovering your rocket....not something many would be interested in...but if uninvolved parties were interested in helping the transport of pads, wouldn't be too impossible.


These are off the top of my head. There's also the idea you could hold people at a staging area in the morning before entering the site, and do the drag first thing.... but that would require quite a bit of effort/ scheduling.

But it is possible to drag still.
 
DavidMcCann said:
I think something everyone is forgetting, is you can still drag race. If you and others feel it so strongly represents the sport and the fun.... all you have to do is modify launch operations to accommodate it. To be technical, TRA is not saying no to drags, the clubs are saying no to the distance required. find a way to deal with that, and you can have drags.

For our launch site, I see a couple ways to deal with it, and the difficulty depends on the number of rockets. To have a large drag, it would be easiest to have it either as a stand alone launch, or on a weekend launch that is typically less populated.

To do it at a major launch, it would be a bit more complex, and involve some help. Get another club to bring out their pads and launch gear, and setup a drag cell at 2,000' If you're concerned it won't be cool enough at that distance, use bigger motors. ;)

With a wireless system, a trailer and a pickup truck, you could in theory tear down say, the right bank of pads at a major launch, drag it out and set it up at 2,000' and then pull it back in after the launch. The hard part with that is to keep the disruption down, you're going to have to tear down, pack up the pads and reset them in the original location before recovering your rocket....not something many would be interested in...but if uninvolved parties were interested in helping the transport of pads, wouldn't be too impossible.

These are off the top of my head. There's also the idea you could hold people at a staging area in the morning before entering the site, and do the drag first thing.... but that would require quite a bit of effort/ scheduling.

But it is possible to drag still.
Click to expand...

Based on the equipment and effort needed to continue doing a mass launch at the large regional launch (MWP), as has been done, this rule change effectively ends it. For QCRS, it only ever happened at MWP, and therefore, it's now effectively ended. Effectively meaning that the effort needed to setup a whole launch operation to accommodate the new distances (for a single launch event) outweighs the benefit of having the drag race in the first place.
As far as the "first thing in the morning idea," I was thinking the opposite... Do it as the final launch on one of the days, that gives people who feel unsafe the time to leave before the drag race. That would've been an easy solution, but again, with the change in distances, that would mean that all the racers have to setup, vacate the visible area, then watch from a half mile away, then go back into the area to pick up their rockets. Nevermind needing to vacate the people that live in the farmhouses within the half-mile range.
So, again, yes it's still "possible" but certainly not "effective"... And this discussion happening prior to the change is where my complaint begins and ends. And again, sure it was "possible" to share these thoughts prior to the rule change, but the discussion wasn't very "effectively" handled.
 
dhbarr said:
Serious question: is there anything forbidding members from proposing any "redlines" or "deltas" to our ruleset be physically mailed with the renew/vote packet? How would someone go about it?
Click to expand...

There's nothing preventing any member from making suggestions. In fact I would love to see more member involvement. However, this last election cycle there was no physical ballot to be returned. Voting switched to online as a response to member requests.
 
CzTeacherMan said:
Do it as the final launch on one of the days, that gives people who feel unsafe the time to leave before the drag race. That would've been an easy solution, but again, with the change in distances, that would mean that all the racers have to setup, vacate the visible area, then watch from a half mile away, then go back into the area to pick up their rockets. Nevermind needing to vacate the people that live in the farmhouses within the half-mile range.
So, again, yes it's still "possible" but certainly not "effective"...
Click to expand...


None of the options are perfect I'll agree. I think the best bet is a cheap set of pads and a little launch system.
 
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CzTeacherMan said:
First, if it was in the Tripoli report prior to the rule being changed, I don't remember. I read those religiously, and I only remember seeing something after action had already been taken. If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.
Second, I was a part of that thread and I followed it closely. But, as you pointed out, TRF isn't exactly a good forum for Tripoli feedback/input, hence my advocating for a simple request for input that could easily be set up via Google forms or some similar app.
Third, an I really hope you can hear this as an honest critique, posting anything to the website is really a poor way to notify anyone of anything. Posting to the website, you're assuming that Tripoli members frequent the website as a means of communication, and honestly, I don't think they do. I hardly ever visit the website because, well, it's not very useful. I have no problem with posting info to the website, but getting a heads up to go to the website would be helpful. Like in the Tripoli report... Just something that said, "by the way, we're looking at our safety code, specifically drag races and age of people allowed at the pads, go to the website for full details and to send your feedback." If that simple line were in the Tripoli Report, I would've gone to the site, read up on the info, and given my input. So, if info was posted (passive communication) prior to the rule change and then announced in the Tripoli Report (active communication) after it had been changed, I hope you can understand how that looks from my perspective... It looks like the asking for input was just as a token action and not serious. Again, it's not an attack, it's a valid complaints about the way Tripoli Board functions. Please take it as that, just a critique that, I hope, leads to some reflection and improvement.
Lastly, I'm fully willing to help. I basically run the logistical side of the ICCA which takes most of my life from October through February. I run several websites and do tons of minute-taking and reporting to members.
I've not intended any of my comments as attacks, though sometimes my tone gets away from me because I'm an emotional guy... I honestly wish the process would've gone down differently so that my input and the input of other members would've been heard before changes were made. The rule change has made it so that one of the coolest parts of my favorite launch is gone. I think that, had the process been done differently, we could've come up with a better change that would've been a better compromise between the two positions.

Everything else aside, if we can improve the process of communication between the board and the members, everyone wins... Drag races or no drag races.
Click to expand...

Thank you; I do appreciate the comments. I absolutely agree that better communications is necessary!
Steve
 
H_Rocket said:
My question is - does TRA do a RFC process on rule changes along the lines of how the NAR does contest rule changes? If not, why? If so, how do they get announced and what is the comment process?
Click to expand...

We don't, Al, but that's not a bad idea at all.
Something to remember though is that changes to our safety codes are usually externally driven by NFPA changes or events that could affect our ability to acquire insurance. So even if we collect input from our members we may be forced by circumstances to make changes that are contrary to popular opinion. That's never going to sit well, especially for emotional subjects, but we cannot escape it.
 
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DavidMcCann said:
I think something everyone is forgetting, is you can still drag race. If you and others feel it so strongly represents the sport and the fun.... all you have to do is modify launch operations to accommodate it. To be technical, TRA is not saying no to drags, the clubs are saying no to the distance required. find a way to deal with that, and you can have drags.

For our launch site, I see a couple ways to deal with it, and the difficulty depends on the number of rockets. To have a large drag, it would be easiest to have it either as a stand alone launch, or on a weekend launch that is typically less populated.

To do it at a major launch, it would be a bit more complex, and involve some help. Get another club to bring out their pads and launch gear, and setup a drag cell at 2,000' If you're concerned it won't be cool enough at that distance, use bigger motors. ;)

With a wireless system, a trailer and a pickup truck, you could in theory tear down say, the right bank of pads at a major launch, drag it out and set it up at 2,000' and then pull it back in after the launch. The hard part with that is to keep the disruption down, you're going to have to tear down, pack up the pads and reset them in the original location before recovering your rocket....not something many would be interested in...but if uninvolved parties were interested in helping the transport of pads, wouldn't be too impossible.


These are off the top of my head. There's also the idea you could hold people at a staging area in the morning before entering the site, and do the drag first thing.... but that would require quite a bit of effort/ scheduling.

But it is possible to drag still.
Click to expand...

Not only is it possible to drag race, but by limiting the number of rockets that fly it's possible to drag race at even closer distances than with the previous research rule.
 
Steve Shannon said:
Something to remember though is that changes to our safety codes are usually externally driven by NFPA changes or events that could affect our ability to acquire insurance. So even if we collect input from our members we may be forced by circumstances to make changes that are contrary to popular opinion. That's never going to sit well, especially for emotional subjects, but we cannot escape it.
Click to expand...

Changes (more restrictive) to things people enjoy is always going to be unpopular, however an RFC process would, at least, allow people to feel engaged. I understand that some of our rules are based in outside guidelines that we only have marginal control input to - NFPA for example. However, a heads up that a change that would cascade and affect how we enjoy our hobby to the membership would be one way to mitigate bad feelings. Doing so may also open the opportunity for someone to have that " why don't we try..." moment where they came up with that unique idea that perhaps everyone else overlooked.

The same for when things are adapted without external input. I am in the population that believes both TRA and NAR run things a bit more " smoke filled back room" at the top than I prefer. I do believe that neither organization is too large to take a serious look at transparency in management.

So basically, I really feel the organizational management owes it to the membership to take every opportunity to engage us in setting the guidelines by which we participate in our hobby.
 
Steve Shannon said:
Not only is it possible to drag race, but by limiting the number of rockets that fly it's possible to drag race at even closer distances than with the previous research rule.
Click to expand...

Steve,
If you are talking about the previous research rule, you statement is patently wrong!
Before the change, drag races were allowed at the complex distance of the highest impulse motor in the drag race. Under the new rules, they will need to be held at the complex distance of the combined impulse. Mathematically, there is no way the combined impulse can be lower the the highest impulse!
Just so folks know, I was the guy who told Bayourat that their planned drag race would not be allowed at AirFest. Why you ask. The answer deals with man power. Maybe in some clubs, every member carries his or her own weight. More likely, like the Kloudbusters, a handful of folks do a large percentage of the work to setup, run, and tear down a launch. Every year I shake my head at the same guys who are busy prepping the half dozen rockets they intend to fly that day while the same 10 guys and gals set up the range. You want to get under my skin, stand at where the RSO table is laying on the ground and ask me to go get you a couple of flight cards so you can be ready to fly just as soon as the work setting the range up is complete.
So after setting the range up, in the event of a drag race, now we are forced under these new rules to relocate several pads to a distance not normally used except by big projects. It's more work than me or any of my core folks really want to do.
Here's the part that frustrates me. When the original commercial rules were too onerous due to what's been describe as an error, the BoD considered what they believed was a safe and reasonable distance and incorporated that into the research code. Several years later, the NFPA "corrects" their mistake and the commercial safety code was amended. So far, I'm onboard. Then the BoD decides the research code which had differed from NFPA for several years needed to be changed to be made "consistent" thus adopting distances that potentially can be much, much longer than the previous code even though the existing code had safely allowed drag races without incident.
Can the Kloudbusters comply with these increased safety distances? Yes. My question to the clubs east of us, can you? I have plenty of setback distance. If there was a need to fly a rocket at 6000' from the flight line, I could do it without impinging on houses or highways. Can your club safely fly at 1500' and not impinge on any structures? If you can't say "Yes", likely you can't support upper L2 impulse drag races of 4 or more rockets under the new rule.
I hate rules for the sake of rules. I especially hate changes just to make rules cleaner. I've reached out to TRA leadership with my concerns and was met with indifference. It was not what I expect from TRA leadership. Looking forward, I guess we need to look into other types of changes.
Bob Brown
TRA 6909 L3 TAP
Perfect of the Kloudbusters
 
BBrown said:
Steve,
If you are talking about the previous research rule, you statement is patently wrong!
Before the change, drag races were allowed at the complex distance of the highest impulse motor in the drag race. Under the new rules, they will need to be held at the complex distance of the combined impulse. Mathematically, there is no way the combined impulse can be lower the the highest impulse!
Just so folks know, I was the guy who told Bayourat that their planned drag race would not be allowed at AirFest. Why you ask. The answer deals with man power. Maybe in some clubs, every member carries his or her own weight. More likely, like the Kloudbusters, a handful of folks do a large percentage of the work to setup, run, and tear down a launch. Every year I shake my head at the same guys who are busy prepping the half dozen rockets they intend to fly that day while the same 10 guys and gals set up the range. You want to get under my skin, stand at where the RSO table is laying on the ground and ask me to go get you a couple of flight cards so you can be ready to fly just as soon as the work setting the range up is complete.
So after setting the range up, in the event of a drag race, now we are forced under these new rules to relocate several pads to a distance not normally used except by big projects. It's more work than me or any of my core folks really want to do.
Here's the part that frustrates me. When the original commercial rules were too onerous due to what's been describe as an error, the BoD considered what they believed was a safe and reasonable distance and incorporated that into the research code. Several years later, the NFPA "corrects" their mistake and the commercial safety code was amended. So far, I'm onboard. Then the BoD decides the research code which had differed from NFPA for several years needed to be changed to be made "consistent" thus adopting distances that potentially can be much, much longer than the previous code even though the existing code had safely allowed drag races without incident.
Can the Kloudbusters comply with these increased safety distances? Yes. My question to the clubs east of us, can you? I have plenty of setback distance. If there was a need to fly a rocket at 6000' from the flight line, I could do it without impinging on houses or highways. Can your club safely fly at 1500' and not impinge on any structures? If you can't say "Yes", likely you can't support upper L2 impulse drag races of 4 or more rockets under the new rule.
I hate rules for the sake of rules. I especially hate changes just to make rules cleaner. I've reached out to TRA leadership with my concerns and was met with indifference. It was not what I expect from TRA leadership. Looking forward, I guess we need to look into other types of changes.
Bob Brown
TRA 6909 L3 TAP
Perfect of the Kloudbusters
Click to expand...

Bob,
According to the wording of the previous research rule the safe distance for a drag race was twice the complex distance for the impulse installed in that rocket. I pasted the actual text a few pages back. If it was intended to be twice the complex distance of the largest impulse motor in the drag race that got left out of the rule.
So, a drag race with three K motors in the previous rule would have been held at 2 x 350 = 700 feet.
Under the new rule, three K550 motors, with a combined impulse of 5100 Ns, can be placed at 500 feet, because the complex distance for up to 5120 Ns is 500 feet. 500 feet < 700 feet.
How is that patently false?
 
I apologize Steve. You are right. I am wrong. I wasn't thinking of three rockets. I'm done with this post.
 
Yea, we can launch at 1500' or better. And have road access to those pads. What, do you think everyone on the east coast is launching on baseball diamonds and soccer fields? ;)
 
rockdoc said:
QCRS, which is running MisWest Power is a Tripoli Prefecture and we are insured by Tripoli, we are no longer self insured.
Click to expand...

Gary, Justin, et. al.,

I assume this was an economic decision? But frankly don't know (or even know if you want to comment). Sadly though, it has changed the past decade+ of free-spirited fun inherent in this launch from it's inception.
 

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