Tripoli and NAR Certification: Do I really need it?

One last thing to add to all of the good advice in this thread. You mentioned difficulty and expense of getting certs for all of the team. I think you can do this a lot cheaper than you're thinking and you can build skills you'll need along the way for the blockbuster project. A 2.6" to 4" kit with a 38mm motor mount will do nicely for L1 and L2 certs, and can be had for $80-$150 depending on size and material. They can be built in a couple of weekends and some things (chutes, motor casings, etc.) can be shared between rockets to reduce expense. Motors for both flights are probably less than $200. Even multiplied by 10 students, this is cheap considering all of the mistakes it will save you on the big rocket(s), where the airframe and motors will cost thousands of dollars. It's much better to have your teachable moments on the cheap(ish) kits.

DavidMcCann said:

Jim- only if NFPA is codified into law where you are. It's hard to find a map, but I assure you it's not everywhere. We have to follow its rules as part of our clubs and insurance, but it's perfectly legal for someone outside of both clubs to buy an M and kick it off with an FAA waiver, in the right location.

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That is ever so true David but I thought most vendors wouldn't sell an M without evidence of L3 status or an L2 with an L3 project? The kicker here is one could "make" their own M, go off to their "own" sod farm where they acquired "their" own FAA waiver
and it would be perfectly legal and proper to do so. Kurt

boatgeek said:

One last thing to add to all of the good advice in this thread. You mentioned difficulty and expense of getting certs for all of the team. I think you can do this a lot cheaper than you're thinking and you can build skills you'll need along the way for the blockbuster project. A 2.6" to 4" kit with a 38mm motor mount will do nicely for L1 and L2 certs, and can be had for $80-$150 depending on size and material. They can be built in a couple of weekends and some things (chutes, motor casings, etc.) can be shared between rockets to reduce expense. Motors for both flights are probably less than $200. Even multiplied by 10 students, this is cheap considering all of the mistakes it will save you on the big rocket(s), where the airframe and motors will cost thousands of dollars. It's much better to have your teachable moments on the cheap(ish) kits.

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We have also seen great teamwork and camaraderie by the college teams on which all members build and fly their level 1 projects with the other team members on the recovery team. They have a blast.

ksaves2 said:

That is ever so true David but I thought most vendors wouldn't sell an M without evidence of L3 status or an L2 with an L3 project? The kicker here is one could "make" their own M, go off to their "own" sod farm where they acquired "their" own FAA waiver
and it would be perfectly legal and proper to do so. Kurt

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I believe colleges and universities are exempt regarding the certification requirement to buy high power motors.

Titan II said:

I believe colleges and universities are exempt regarding the certification requirement to buy high power motors.

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That may be so but they probably need a faculty member take responsibility and would have to go through the rigamarole of waiver application unless they are flying at a club site that already has FAA dispensation.
Likely an appropriate club member would have to willing to affix their name to the flight card and nothing wrong with that. Kurt

We have a bunch of colleges that fly with us...

I understand the push to go right into a large team project. Both from a time and cost aspect.


There is great value in taking the time to at least all get L1 certs.

Steve Shannon said:

I believe most, if not all, of the members of CSXT were already members of Tripoli beforehand.

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Cheers Steve. I was trying to highlight that CSXT wasn't a Tripoli flight. As you and Mark Koelsch highlight essentially everyone involved iwth CSXT was Tripoli. But I don't believe it was a tra flight so to speak, and I don't think membership in Tripoli was a prerequisite for the CSXT flight. Also, IIRC many of the involved individuals were professionals in the industry. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above.

cbrarick said:

We've already proven that solid rockets can reach that high. I think that a college group (with it's inherent turn-over) would be hard pressed to put together a program that would get them to using a large liquid motor. They should join TRA and set a long term research program that would allow them to obtain their goal.

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I agree re the solids, hence my comment about "considering" liquids. And while you think a college group would be hard pressed to put together a program that would get them to use a large liquid motor I think otherwise. In fact you might recall that list making the rounds earlier in the year that highlighted almost 20 University teams in the US alone were working on a liquid engine.

Basically what I was trying to highlight earlier is that OP's original question of "Do I really need Tripoli and NAR certification" is easily answerable with a no. James/RocketHawk's first question was Is Tripoli and NAR certification necessary to fly? And we all know the answer to that; no.

Could it help? Sure, especially with getting assistance with FAA waivers. But I think we can all agree that in the strict interpretation of James/RocketHawk's question the answer is simply no, you don't need Tripoli or NAR to fly a university rocketry club project.

plugger said:

But I think we can all agree that in the strict interpretation of James/RocketHawk's question the answer is simply no, you don't need Tripoli or NAR to fly a university rocketry club project.

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You are absolutely correct. However, I just want people to understand you can't show up at a club launch and expect to fly without the proper certification just because they think colleges are exempt from the requirement. My club certainly wouldn't let anyone fly a high power rocket without at least one person being certified or attempting to cert with the flight. We are a NAR club and you had better have the proper NAR or Tripoli certs or you are NOT flying with us. PERIOD.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you don't deal with college teams you don't understand some of the issues. My club has talked about banning college teams, but we decided we would rather help them do it right than just say no. And we usually help several local college teams each year. Some of these teams are not well prepared for what they are trying to do. They are missing cert paperwork, motors, motor hardware, unaware of cert tests, poor design choices for their rocket, etc. I have seen teams of 8 people where only one person is knowledgeable about rockets. The others are the software, robotics and other specialties needed to complete the project. My guess is most of the team thinks building and programming the robot or other payload is the hard part. That is until their 30 pound rocket has a major failure 3,000 feet in the air and they spend the next 30 minutes picking up pieces.

Sad story, but kind of funny, too .... At my club, we had a day where a college rocketry team showed up, all of them looking to cert L1, at least a dozen members. Each had his/her own rocket and reload, but they only had two casings to share amongst themselves. They did not use any kind of DD, and it was a breezy day. The first two people ready to fly both launched to about 3000', deployed the main, and drifted out of sight. There went the motor casings.

I've seen some very well prepared college teams. However, in general they have some great plans, great ideas, but lack the experience to pull it off. Without having a mentor, or solid experience flying, you're going to either take core samples of a farm, or make confetti. I've seen teams given advice not to fly. They ignore that advice and the rocket folds in half under boost and the booster thumps into the ground at terminal velocity.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But the tendency to shoot for the moon before walking runs high in college teams in general, and I'm not talking one or two.


If you go club or no club, doesn't matter. But get an experienced flier or get the experience yourself, and you'll have much better results.

I was at a QCRS launch were there was a college group of probably 20 all doing L1 certs... Made a mess of the lines at the pad, but the worst part was one guy set up his recovery impropperly, and half of the rest watched and copied him. I think of the first 10, 7 had deployment failures... They ended up pulling them all out of line to check their setups.

This starts to come off as bagging on and dismissing college teams.

Not the goal, not mine anyways. These tendencies show up in individual fliers who come from little to no rocketry experience, and fast track right into HPR.

tge goal of this discussion is to show you points and ways to avoid failure. Not discourage

I've had very good luck working with college teams. True, their experience is completely different than someone who built their knowledge over years of launching model rockets. There have been a very few students who assume that their college courses and theory are perfect and who think that they can't possibly learn from hobbyists. They learn otherwise or fail but as I say their numbers have been low. I've seen experienced rocketeers who believe that they can't learn from college students also. Their hubris is sometimes shown wrong as well.
I enjoy the two college teams who currently work with us.

It certainly was not my intent to disparage college teams. My intent was to point out that there are unique challenges to supporting college teams at club launches. They are young and don't have the years of experience many of us do. They are jumping in at high power instead of launching progressively bigger rockets as most of us have. They also don't have the support network that many club members have where we can learn from each other at build sessions and launches. They are sort of in the position of learning to drive with a Ferrari.

My goal with my comments is for other clubs and individuals to learn from what my club has seen and prevent some of the same problems. We want these teams to succeed, but we should be in a position to mentor and advise and stop the launching of unsafe rockets.

Zeus-cat said:

It certainly was not my intent to disparage college teams. My intent was to point out that there are unique challenges to supporting college teams at club launches. They are young and don't have the years of experience many of us do. They are jumping in at high power instead of launching progressively bigger rockets as most of us have. They also don't have the support network that many club members have where we can learn from each other at build sessions and launches. They are sort of in the position of learning to drive with a Ferrari.

My goal with my comments is for other clubs and individuals to learn from what my club has seen and prevent some of the same problems. We want these teams to succeed, but we should be in a position to mentor and advise and stop the launching of unsafe rockets.

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I completely agree.

Zeus-cat said:

It certainly was not my intent to disparage college teams. My intent was to point out that there are unique challenges to supporting college teams at club launches. They are young and don't have the years of experience many of us do. They are jumping in at high power instead of launching progressively bigger rockets as most of us have. They also don't have the support network that many club members have where we can learn from each other at build sessions and launches. They are sort of in the position of learning to drive with a Ferrari.

My goal with my comments is for other clubs and individuals to learn from what my club has seen and prevent some of the same problems. We want these teams to succeed, but we should be in a position to mentor and advise and stop the launching of unsafe rockets.

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I know where you were at, but I started to recall some threads where myself I was misinterpreted and wanted to clarify my own intent so the OP doesn't feel chased off by my comments.

We're all quite interested in helping, so if you're still out there, please feel free to ask questions. We'll be glad to help with whatever approach you decide is best for your situation.

Zeus-cat said:

It certainly was not my intent to disparage college teams. My intent was to point out that there are unique challenges to supporting college teams at club launches. They are young and don't have the years of experience many of us do. They are jumping in at high power instead of launching progressively bigger rockets as most of us have. They also don't have the support network that many club members have where we can learn from each other at build sessions and launches. They are sort of in the position of learning to drive with a Ferrari.

My goal with my comments is for other clubs and individuals to learn from what my club has seen and prevent some of the same problems. We want these teams to succeed, but we should be in a position to mentor and advise and stop the launching of unsafe rockets.

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I agree with your comments about the college teams. We started hosting Battle of the Rockets almost 10 years ago and have hosted and helped many SLI, CanSat, and other college competition teams. I'm always amazed be two things, their amazing engineering and ingenuity, and their project destroying mistakes because of a lack of practical rocketry experience. The learning to drive with a Ferrari is so appropriate. The keys are dangled and they are taught all about how the engine, transmission, suspension, aerodynamics, etc., all work. Then they are given the keys, told to drive and nobody has bothered to tell them about speed bumps, stop signs, lane markings, one way streets, or all the other practical things you need to know to drive from one place to another.

To address the OPs original questions, no you don't need a NAR or TRA certification, or do you need to join or launch at a club site. i would highly recommend you embrace the nearest club and work with them. You might want to consider that the 5 to 10 most active members of any club will have about 100 years of practical rocketry field experience. That is a huge and valuable resource that as a college group is probably the one thing you are most lacking in. I've watch incredibly well engineered payloads go out to the pad and come back because the rail buttons pulled loose and fell off. It's the little things that club members almost take for granted that the college teams have no experience with that tend to delay and destroy their projects.

So even if you don't need the TRA clubs for flights or certs, go and find them, attend launches, learn and study. Your professors probably don't have any practical rocketry experience either, so don't depend on them to be able to give you the nuts and bolts advice and info you'll need. The club RSO is one of your best professors, listen and learn. Consider any club launch as Rocketry 101 and it should be a pre-requisite to any rocketry project.

1tree said:

Something worth noting is that it is easy to move between TRA and NAR for at least levels one and two.

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Don't they each honor the other's Level 3 cert as well? Or that is only for 1 and 2?

SoCalChris said:

Don't they each honor the other's Level 3 cert as well? Or that is only for 1 and 2?

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They honor each others certs L1-L3 and the testing requirements for both are pretty similar.