Do fireworks starters work in hobby rocket motors?

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So does this stuff, according to page 102, "A" of your document:

"ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP))."

The igniter argument gets more ridiculous every time it is resurrected. I wouldn't be surprised if some TRF member united front intervention via multiple complaints were responsible for the sudden absence of igniters on Amazon.

As said, they are available on Ebay. Buy em up before some Johnny Law TRF'er front has them removed from there as well.

The average citizen commits 3 felonies a day without knowledge of the crimes. You can't walk down a sidewalk without breaking the law. You're as likely to get busted using these igniters as you are any of the other felonies you didn't know you commited every day. Ffs, no one cares. Not even the ATF.

View attachment 323789

Citation needed. What 3 felonies are most people committing every day? I am not saying that you are incorrect, just curious as to what you think people are doing?

And I think it is appropriate that someone mentions the legality aspect of it. It is good to know if you are breaking the law or at least skirting it.
 
Citation needed. What 3 felonies are most people committing every day? I am not saying that you are incorrect, just curious as to what you think people are doing?

And I think it is appropriate that someone mentions the legality aspect of it. It is good to know if you are breaking the law or at least skirting it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_A._Silverglate

Good reads, his works.

As for igniters, lots of hypocrisy on the subject. Any TAPs or RSOs that have not denied a flight to a non license holder for using Chinese igniters or BP? Hope not, otherwise they would be complicit. By allowing the flight they have implicated themselves in a crime. Failing to report is an additional charge/aggravator. Now that anyone who reads this thread is privy to the information, they have no excuse. And despite the fact that ignorance is not a defense, evidence of previous knowledge (TRF member, perhaps?) significantly decreases your ability to avoid self incrimination even when invoking the 5th, and you better believe there are overzealous prosecutors out there that would turn down ten district cases to pursue a Federal case.

I hear the ATF attend launches unannounced, and in plain clothes...
 
I think Zeus-cat may be exaggerating a bit. However, his sentiment is not far from the truth.

Take, for instance, using personal e-mail at work. I am a government contractor. We are supposed to use the Internet for work purposes only. We are not supposed to check personal e-mail. But, of course, everyone does, including the government employees. As far as I know, no one has ever gotten fired for using the Internet for non-work purposes, as I am doing right now. So why have the rule?

Because if you are a screw-up who can't do his job, doesn't come in on time, doesn't play nicely with others, then they have a way to bust you. You're really getting fired for being incompetent, not for checking e-mail. But there is no "incompetency rule," because it is very difficult to prove that a person is incompetent.

Likewise with the ATF. If Joe Blow takes his electric matches and goes out and does something stupid with them, then they can bust him for illegal possession/storage. If his kids find them and blow off their fingers, he's going down. Otherwise, the time, money, effort, and paperwork involved in getting a warrant, doing a search, making an arrest, holding a trial, etc. are very prohibitive.

Take jaywalking. Know anybody who has been arrested for jaywalking? The law is there to protect drivers who may come around the corner and hit a pedestrian who isn't where he is supposed to be. Otherwise, no one's getting a ticket for crossing the street.

But, on the other side of the argument, it is not difficult to get a LEUP and buy an explosives box. Pay the $30 a year and have you're annual inspection, and then you have nothing to worry about, if you are the worrying type.
 
I hear the ATF attend launches unannounced, and in plain clothes...

I hear that there are some vendors who sell BP without a permit. And I hear that sometimes, people bring moonshine to the launch and pass around a jug after everyone else goes home. And I hear that some people drive over the speed limit when they are driving to and from launches. And I hear that sometimes people place a little friendly wager on a rocket drag race. We should all be locked up!
 
Umm... guys, why is all this kerfuffle going on? :y:

We are all supposed to be on the same side, certainly you cannot tell from how this simple question has turned into ishkabibble. This topic should be treated like fight club.

Don't discuss motor starters OR ejection starters when it comes to legality. :facepalm:

How many of you have actually spoken with an agent & had a viable discussion about either of the above. If you have [I have] you will know the less spoken or poking a sleeping bear with the stick.....the better.

It's all 'bout the legal definition of e-match-igniter thing. ATF regulates those....if your smart you don't use them.
You use starters..which are not regulated by definition, don't do anything stupid, start arguments that may attract attention, or rub someone's nose in it cause you think you're smarter. Everything will be fine.:smile:

Fly under the radar as you have been instructed, attracting attention in any shape or form is simply idioticall and just asking for bad things to happen.:dark:

The ATF can only enforce the laws en-acted by Congress, they CANNOT change them. That would take an act of CONGRESS & it ain't happ'e'n for are lousy group of under 10,000 hobbyist's .
BUT they can give "interpretations" based on how things are being used. Accept this for what it is, and quit inciting anger amongst ourselves........please.
So whatever you decide to buy-use-do..keep it low key, or send each other inflammatory PM's if you don't agree.

Let's not be like politician's, we need to work together & all enjoy the sport we love.:wink:

Semper Fly!!!
 
Umm... guys, why is all this kerfuffle going on? :y:

We are all supposed to be on the same side, certainly you cannot tell from how this simple question has turned into ishkabibble. This topic should be treated like fight club.

Don't discuss motor starters OR ejection starters when it comes to legality. :facepalm:

How many of you have actually spoken with an agent & had a viable discussion about either of the above. If you have [I have] you will know the less spoken or poking a sleeping bear with the stick.....the better.

It's all 'bout the legal definition of e-match-igniter thing. ATF regulates those....if your smart you don't use them.
You use starters..which are not regulated by definition, don't do anything stupid, start arguments that may attract attention, or rub someone's nose in it cause you think you're smarter. Everything will be fine.:smile:

Fly under the radar as you have been instructed, attracting attention in any shape or form is simply idioticall and just asking for bad things to happen.:dark:

The ATF can only enforce the laws en-acted by Congress, they CANNOT change them. That would take an act of CONGRESS & it ain't happ'e'n for are lousy group of under 10,000 hobbyist's .
BUT they can give "interpretations" based on how things are being used. Accept this for what it is, and quit inciting anger amongst ourselves........please.
So whatever you decide to buy-use-do..keep it low key, or send each other inflammatory PM's if you don't agree.

Let's not be like politician's, we need to work together & all enjoy the sport we love.:wink:

Semper Fly!!!

That's sort of what I was trying to say, but you said it much better. :cheers:
 
To try to add some useful info and NOT to restart the argument portion....

For small diameter BP motors where the matches won't go up into the nozzle, here is a trick I did long ago when using Flashbulbs to ignite BP engines for clusters. Origially I used the classic method of scotch-taping a Centuri Sure-Shot ignitor wick to the flashbulb, with the wick up into the nozzle. Then using FSI fuse-wick became popular..... and then it became known that the FSI fuse-wick was "Thermalite". So, that was used for years and years, before the BATF stepepd in and Thermalite was classed as an explosive.

As my supply of Thermalite ran low, I found another option that Kevin Kuczek came up with for using flashbulbs to ignite BP motors. Place the motor nozzle-up, pour a bit of BP into the nozzle. Place flashbulb pointy tip into nozzle, apply a bead of clay between the flashbulb and nozzle, and then a full wrap of tape around the last 1/4" of the motor and press into the side of the flashbulb to hold it in place. The clay helps to keep the BP powder grains for falling out. When the bulb flashes, it gets so hot that it ignites the BP, which ignites the motor.

The BP with flashbulb method worked 100% of the time (more reliable than wick/Thermalite, and instant simultaneous ignition of all motors. I only stopped doing it when Q2G2's came along (and those flashbulbs are harder to find and more expensive than when I last got some about 20 years ago). Again, this is only for BP motors, not composites.

Now, I cannot say that I have used e-matches in that same manner, but offer the idea of adding some BP and SECURELY sealing/taping the match in place so that the BP won't fall out of place. Certainly if one did a cluster using 13mm engines, this method may be highly useful as an e-match might not be able to fit close enough to shot sparks reliably up inside the nozzle (unless using A10's, those might fit). For say doing a 1/45 Little Joe-II with a D12, E9, or Estes E15 in the center and six outer 13mm motors.

BTW - if anyone wanted to try flashbulbs, the most practical way is to get them as Flashcubes (many listed on eBay, as they are LONG OOP as are the film cameras that used them), then disassemble to get 4 bulbs from each cube. Beware - Never get "MagicCubes", as those did not have the wire leads that can be wired up to a battery, they used a peizo "striker" instead. Photo below is the good kind, not the MagicCubes.

$(KGrHqR,!ooFJRg6SdS+BSbV!(h)kw~~60_57.JPG
 
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The ATF can only enforce the laws en-acted by Congress, they CANNOT change them. That would take an act of CONGRESS & it ain't happ'e'n for are lousy group of under 10,000 hobbyist's .

On the other hand, if you can elect a rocketry enthusiast to Congress, they can get all kinds of stuff done. Congress is all about favors, and it's really easy to stuff something into a bill that changes the law without being super-obvious about what you're doing.

I do agree with the stay safe and stay quiet approach until that wonderful day.
 
Umm... guys, why is all this kerfuffle going on? :y:

We are all supposed to be on the same side, certainly you cannot tell from how this simple question has turned into ishkabibble. This topic should be treated like fight club.

Don't discuss motor starters OR ejection starters when it comes to legality. :facepalm:

How many of you have actually spoken with an agent & had a viable discussion about either of the above. If you have [I have] you will know the less spoken or poking a sleeping bear with the stick.....the better.

It's all 'bout the legal definition of e-match-igniter thing. ATF regulates those....if your smart you don't use them.
You use starters..which are not regulated by definition, don't do anything stupid, start arguments that may attract attention, or rub someone's nose in it cause you think you're smarter. Everything will be fine.:smile:

Fly under the radar as you have been instructed, attracting attention in any shape or form is simply idioticall and just asking for bad things to happen.:dark:

The ATF can only enforce the laws en-acted by Congress, they CANNOT change them. That would take an act of CONGRESS & it ain't happ'e'n for are lousy group of under 10,000 hobbyist's .
BUT they can give "interpretations" based on how things are being used. Accept this for what it is, and quit inciting anger amongst ourselves........please.
So whatever you decide to buy-use-do..keep it low key, or send each other inflammatory PM's if you don't agree.

Let's not be like politician's, we need to work together & all enjoy the sport we love.:wink:

Semper Fly!!!

Very good post Jim! ATF really doesn't want to come after us unless we force the issue and cause problems that they cannot ignore.
 
On the other hand, if you can elect a rocketry enthusiast to Congress, they can get all kinds of stuff done. Congress is all about favors, and it's really easy to stuff something into a bill that changes the law without being super-obvious about what you're doing.

I do agree with the stay safe and stay quiet approach until that wonderful day.

I'd like to think anyone smart enough for Rocket Science is too smart to want to run for office!!
 
Umm... guys, why is all this kerfuffle going on? :y:

We are all supposed to be on the same side, certainly you cannot tell from how this simple question has turned into ishkabibble. This topic should be treated like fight club.

Don't discuss motor starters OR ejection starters when it comes to legality. :facepalm:

How many of you have actually spoken with an agent & had a viable discussion about either of the above. If you have [I have] you will know the less spoken or poking a sleeping bear with the stick.....the better.

It's all 'bout the legal definition of e-match-igniter thing. ATF regulates those....if your smart you don't use them.
You use starters..which are not regulated by definition, don't do anything stupid, start arguments that may attract attention, or rub someone's nose in it cause you think you're smarter. Everything will be fine.:smile:

Fly under the radar as you have been instructed, attracting attention in any shape or form is simply idioticall and just asking for bad things to happen.:dark:

The ATF can only enforce the laws en-acted by Congress, they CANNOT change them. That would take an act of CONGRESS & it ain't happ'e'n for are lousy group of under 10,000 hobbyist's .
BUT they can give "interpretations" based on how things are being used. Accept this for what it is, and quit inciting anger amongst ourselves........please.
So whatever you decide to buy-use-do..keep it low key, or send each other inflammatory PM's if you don't agree.

Let's not be like politician's, we need to work together & all enjoy the sport we love.:wink:

Semper Fly!!!

Well said!!!
 
If so, can they be used for both black powder and AP?

Thanks

Cutting through the fog...

Yes, fireworks starters work in hobby rocket motors.

They work in all BP motors that they will fit into (probably only the 29mm Estes motors, though).

They will work in AP motors if you dip them in a suitable pyrogen first, OR as-is in most CTI motors which have a BP starter pellet in them.

My work is done here...
 
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