I wonder if Hobby Lobby will try to use a 40% off coupon to pay the fine?

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That is a supply side argument and, like so many supply side arguments, ignores the demand side. Without a market, the suppliers will have to move on to something else to make money.

I subscribe to an archeology magazine. The issue of looted (and faked) antiquities gets complicated quickly, especially in places where antiquities are being destroyed. Which is the moral good, to allow their destruction, or to pay looters? Ordinarily, serious scientists would never consider condoning the looting of important historical artifacts for a ton of very good reasons. But if the alternative is losing those antiquities for all time and losing any opportunity that humanity might ever have to learn from them, then which is worse? Add into that the possibility that the looters are themselves evil (such as ISIS) and the money used to do more evil, then it gets even more difficult, and morally ambiguous.
 
Last time I bought anything from them was a few decades ago with a Senior Telemaster in kit form. Haven't even perused anything by them since. I'll just get the plans from someone else on Ebay if I want to build another one.
 
I've shopped at Hobby Lobby and will probably do so again, despite the fact that I disagree with their owners on many things. If I boycotted all the hypocrites in the world, I'd have to boycott everyone and probably have to boycott myself on occasion. It's easier to just mock them on a rocketry forum and move on.

Also, just because Mr Green was able to pick up some ancient artifacts for a tenth their market value and paid for them by sending money to multiple different people, not the dealer, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean he was knowingly trafficking in looted cultural treasures on the black market. It could be he had a 90% off coupon and was simply making multiple purchases at multiple check stands to get around the one item limit.
 
That is a supply side argument and, like so many supply side arguments, ignores the demand side. Without a market, the suppliers will have to move on to something else to make money.

I thought I was pretty clear in acknowledging that in my discussion, obviously I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't advocating for either side, simply noting that it is a complex moral argument.
 
True. But 5,000 years ago, when they were new, people used to stand in line for days waiting for the realease of these tablets --- the cuneiform is AMAZING, and the clay is top of the line!

Yeah, but you needed a stylus...
 
Love the title of the thread. Realized that we may be the only subset of people who really "get" the coupon reference though... My wife needed me to explain it until it wasn't funny anymore.

How does it go...Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog, in the end everyone understands it better but there's no life left in it.
 
How does it go...Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog, in the end everyone understands it better but there's no life left in it.

That's pretty good. I usually just go with "explaining a joke always makes it funnier" when someone tries to do it or requests that someone else does it. Most people yield at that point. :)
 
I've shopped at Hobby Lobby and will probably do so again, despite the fact that I disagree with their owners on many things. If I boycotted all the hypocrites in the world, I'd have to boycott everyone and probably have to boycott myself on occasion. It's easier to just mock them on a rocketry forum and move on.

Also, just because Mr Green was able to pick up some ancient artifacts for a tenth their market value and paid for them by sending money to multiple different people, not the dealer, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean he was knowingly trafficking in looted cultural treasures on the black market. It could be he had a 90% off coupon and was simply making multiple purchases at multiple check stands to get around the one item limit.

It's always the ones who preach the loudest who fall the hardest. My disagreements are pretty well cast in cement with little room with hypocritical businesses.
 
I thought I was pretty clear in acknowledging that in my discussion, obviously I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't advocating for either side, simply noting that it is a complex moral argument.

Supporting looters is a "complex moral argument?"
 
That is a supply side argument and, like so many supply side arguments, ignores the demand side. Without a market, the suppliers will have to move on to something else to make money.

Very true, but when it comes to antiquities there are ALWAYS buyers. People want ancient stuff just because its ancient; I bet many of them don't care about legalities.

On a weird side note, did you know that there is a sand mafia? And that it is huge? There are actual organized crime rings dealing in sand. And the most bizarre part of it is, guess where they are? India!!! A country that has actual deserts. Now you are probably thinking I am smoking something. Nope, the thing is only certain kids of sand can be used in cement and concrete and it is fairly rare in certain parts of the world. So because it is rare, there is a sand mafia and it makes huge profits stealing sand and selling it for construction projects. Basically, anything that is rare can attract shady characters. So if there is sand mafia how do you keep criminals out of rare antiquities?
 
He did the right thing after having done the wrong thing.

He got caught. He got offered a deal, and he (smartly) chose it & got off easy.

I always believed that the definition of "morality" and "ethics" was what you did before you got caught &/or when no one else was in the room watching you.

Re: ISIS funding their activities through looting antiquities, here is what the Wall Street Journal is reporting:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/promin...vestigations-of-looted-antiquities-1496246740
 
There are actual organized crime rings dealing in sand. And the most bizarre part of it is, guess where they are? India!!!
Even having a couple internet friends in India, I didn't know about that one. So I went playing in Google, and sure enough ...
Posted at: Jun 19, 2017, 1:39 AM; last updated: Jun 19, 2017, 1:39 AM (IST)
Disclose names of Akalis running sand mafia: AAP
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/disclose-names-of-akalis-running-sand-mafia-aap/424386.html

Madhya Pradesh: Fear for my life, receiving death threats from sand mafia, says IAS officer Sonia Meena
Concerned over the safety of the 2013 batch IAS officer, Collector Abhishek Singh of Umaria district said security of Meena has been increased.
By Shubhang Chauhan | Published: June 18, 2017 10:03 PM IST
https://www.india.com/news/india/madhya-pradesh-fear-for-my-life-receiving-death-threats-from-sand-mafia-says-ias-officer-sonia-meena-2248192/

He said, "Thus, the price of this sand gravel tipper becomes almost Rs 40,000. This is an average price for the total of 29 lakh tonnes of sand and gravel. However, for some quarries such as Gajujgir quarry of Pathankot, the costs will go up to Rs 2,64,091 per tonne of the sand and gravel." tnn
Chadha alleged that it was not possible to sell sand and gravel at this rate so to make up for their money and take profits, contractors would illegally mine beyond the contract area.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/aap-leader-questions-sand-mines-auction/articleshow/59481262.cms
 
Supporting looters is a "complex moral argument?"

Once again, I didn't say I supported either side.

But yes, a significant portion of the antiquities found in museums are looted. Many were looted by governments. This isn't new to ISIS although with them it presents an even more difficult dilemma because they are known to destroy irreplaceable artifacts. Looting is obviously to be discouraged for many reasons but foremost among them is because the looted items (many being "stolen" from the ground in unauthorized "digs") lose their provenance and much of what can be learned is lost. On the other hand, if the government lacks the funds to do real science, and the items are already dug up, is it better to learn what is to be learned or to lose that information forever? Much science can still be done and much can still be learned from artifacts even without proper provenance. Of course, even more than provenance is lost. What if that artifact could have led to even greater discoveries, and those are now lost because we don't know where it was dug up? What if the looters, being more interested in saleable items, threw away things that were, scientifically, even more valuable because they didn't "look" like anything to an untrained eye? In the last couple years alone huge discoveries have been made from tiny potsherds which pushed back the origins of several languages back in time by thousands of years.

For all these reasons, and a host of others, most museums have a policy against purchasing items known to be looted, but the fact is, the market is huge and its not going away. So many things are looted or are in a "grey" area that museums still buy them and even the best museums sometime violate their own policies to acquire pieces of particular historic significance simply in order to preserve them. And if the museum acquires a fantastic artifact and they learn something historically earth-shattering, the possibility is that reputable journals and magazines won't publish it because the provenance of the artifact is questionable.

Even in ISIS controlled territories, there are many grey areas. Before the Gulf War, some museum curators took prized holdings home and buried them. Others were deliberately smuggled out of the country. This was done by reputable agents in order to preserve them. Before the Arab Spring artifacts from the Egyptian national museum were placed "on loan" without proper approval (technically looted) to museums abroad to protect them. What's the right thing to do?

ISIS is known to destroy all manner of historic arifacts, especially any that have any religious significance whatsoever (to any religion whatsoever). If items are stolen before ISIS is able to destroy them, is smuggling them out of ISIS controlled territories before they can be destroyed a moral good because they were saved, or morally bad because they were smuggled illegally. Once again, this become less ambiguous, but still academically troublesome, if ISIS itself is raising funds by selling this stuff. I don't think anyone would support the purchase of such items if it knowingly supported ISIS, but academics would still cringe at the thought of these artifacts (history itself) being destroyed. I would be very interested to read the report of the government's investigation into the Hobby Lobby artifacts. One report that I saw said that at least one of the agents that acquired them was an Israeli. Somehow I don't see ISIS selling to an Israeli national, or an Israeli (even one selling morally questionable artifacts) being "in bed" with ISIS looters. I'm curious where these items came from and how they found their way here.

So yes, in the world of archaeology, looting is a "complex moral argument" that professional, amateur, and even armchair archaeologists have to deal with every day and it is discussed regularly, and at length, in professional magazines and journals.

Yes looting is wrong.
Destroying historically significant artifacts is wrong.

Assuming ISIS is not a part of the equation...

What if someone came to you and you had to choose one?

What if you had spent your entire life studying the type of artifacts in question and you knew that they were, academically and in terms of dollars, utterly priceless?

Which would you choose?
 
Well said John. A truly vexing situation that I never want to be in, but I think I would save the artifacts as long as any money didn't go to terrorists or murderers. I wouldn't be happy paying thieves, but I could live with that if I saved something priceless.
 
Once again, I didn't say I supported either side.

But yes....

So, you are saying that the end always justifies the means? That stealing is ok, paying thieves (& murderers!) is ok, as long as it is for some self-perceived good?
 
Martha Stewart got six months in the slammer for lying to the FBI. Now she has a cooking show on PBS and is once again considered a celebrity. I wonder if she ever shops at Hobby Lobby? :confused2:
 
Last time I bought anything from them was a few decades ago with a Senior Telemaster in kit form. Haven't even perused anything by them since. I'll just get the plans from someone else on Ebay if I want to build another one.

Different Hobby Lobby. You refer to Hobby Lobby International, which specialized in R/C Aircraft, boats, and helicopters (changed name to Hobby Express in 2013).

Hllogo.jpg


I got a few things from them over the years, but mostly some R/C gear. But I moved on to other sources, last two times I had ordered were mainly for very unique small R/C connectors, and very nice little simple small 12V chargers for LiPo batteries, both of which they stopped carrying. The "Hobby Express" does not carry as much neat stuff as they used to and any time I've checked what they have to sale with some other dealers, their prices are not as good. For many years I had their huge thick catalogs (well, thick for a hobby dealer), almost like the old Sears Catalog of wish list things (or even know that various kits/parts/supplies existed in the pre-internet days. Same with Ace R/C, and the SIG catalogs).

They changed the name to "Hobby Express" in 2013, and sold the rights to the name "Hobby Lobby" to..... Hobby Lobby (H.L. International had the trademark rights to the name).

https://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2014...ional-resolved-its-trademark-dispute/?mcubz=2

ai16328886-16-thumb-hobbyexpress.jpg


Mark Cleveland, Hobby Lobby International’s owner, concluded that continuing with the status quo would have a serious impact on the growth of his company, which he had bought from a private equity firm in 2009. He took his grievance to Hobby Lobby Stores, arguing that his trademark, which predated Hobby Lobby Stores, gave him the rights to the Hobby Lobby name, as it pertains to hobby products. His ultimatum for his counterpart: Get out of the hobby business or buy the Hobby Lobby name.

The larger store took the threat seriously. Late last year, Hobby Lobby Stores agreed to pay Hobby Lobby International an undisclosed amount for the Hobby Lobby brand and for intellectual assets associated with the name. And in December, Mr. Cleveland changed his company’s name to Hobby Express.


As for myself, I mainly only go Hobby Lobby for one reason. To use 40% off coupons to get a better price on something. But if Michaels carries the same thing I go to Michaels and use their 40% coupon.
 
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So, you are saying that the end always justifies the means? That stealing is ok, paying thieves (& murderers!) is ok, as long as it is for some self-perceived good?

He's not saying that, at all. Quit putting words into his mouth. He very clearly said he doesn't support either one, and when asked about why it's a complex moral argument he explained that both sides are bad. Stealing is bad. Allowing irreplaceable historical artifacts to be destroyed is bad.

Nowhere did he say that stealing is okay or even infer that he's be okay with it as long as things he liked were protected.
 
I usually grab a quick snack at Chic-fil-A on my way to Hobby Lobby with my 40% off any one item weekly coupon whenever I run out of Estes engines.
 
Apparently I said something wrong during the previous protests against Hobby Lobby. I asked a protestor what was the address of their store and what was their price on Testors Acryl. The look they gave me I have no words to describe; other than maybe that they looked at me like I was from Neptune.
 
Well said John. A truly vexing situation that I never want to be in, but I think I would save the artifacts as long as any money didn't go to terrorists or murderers. I wouldn't be happy paying thieves, but I could live with that if I saved something priceless.

Assuming ISIS is not a part of the equation...

The problem with the "I guess it's OK to pay thieves, but not terrorists" argument is that nobody has any idea who profited from the artifacts they're buying unless they are going through legitimate sources, and possibly not even then. It's not like ISIS has a stand in a UAE market for their antiquities. They sell them to dealers, who sell them to other people, who sell them... There's no reason to think that ISIS-looted items wouldn't end up in an Israeli dealer's hands. There's just a few levels of markup and anonymity in between. The founders of HL can assume ISIS isn't part of the equation if it makes them feel better, but nobody knows for sure. In fact, by buying the artifacts, they're participating in the market and pushing up prices, benefiting ISIS, even if their pieces weren't looted.

I'm often surprised by how many people hold absolute religious views when it comes to other people but have extremely flexible ethics when it comes to themselves. I suppose I shouldn't be.
 
So, you are saying that the end always justifies the means? That stealing is ok, paying thieves (& murderers!) is ok, as long as it is for some self-perceived good?

I just said I wasn't taking sides in the argument. Did you not read what I wrote? Don't twist my words to say things that I deliberately didn't say.

I'm saying that sometimes the world isn't black and white and that people are forced to make decisions in which neither choice represents a moral good. Few of us can know what we would do unless we find ourselves in those situations. My only point is that the situation is emotionally, morally, and ethically complicated.
 
Different Hobby Lobby. You refer to Hobby Lobby International, which specialized in R/C Aircraft, boats, and helicopters (changed name to Hobby Express in 2013).

Hllogo.jpg


I got a few things from them over the years, but mostly some R/C gear. But I moved on to other sources, last two times I had ordered were mainly for very unique small R/C connectors, and very nice little simple small 12V chargers for LiPo batteries, both of which they stopped carrying. The "Hobby Express" does not carry as much neat stuff as they used to and any time I've checked what they have to sale with some other dealers, their prices are not as good. For many years I had their huge thick catalogs (well, thick for a hobby dealer), almost like the old Sears Catalog of wish list things (or even know that various kits/parts/supplies existed in the pre-internet days. Same with Ace R/C, and the SIG catalogs).

They changed the name to "Hobby Express" in 2013, and sold the rights to the name "Hobby Lobby" to..... Hobby Lobby (H.L. International had the trademark rights to the name).

https://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2014...ional-resolved-its-trademark-dispute/?mcubz=2




As for myself, I mainly only go Hobby Lobby for one reason. To use 40% off coupons to get a better price on something. But if Michaels carries the same thing I go to Michaels and use their 40% coupon.

I stand corrected, in that case, I've NEVER shopped at Hobby Lobby.
 
The problem with the "I guess it's OK to pay thieves, but not terrorists" argument is that nobody has any idea who profited from the artifacts they're buying unless they are going through legitimate sources, and possibly not even then. It's not like ISIS has a stand in a UAE market for their antiquities. They sell them to dealers, who sell them to other people, who sell them... There's no reason to think that ISIS-looted items wouldn't end up in an Israeli dealer's hands. There's just a few levels of markup and anonymity in between. The founders of HL can assume ISIS isn't part of the equation if it makes them feel better, but nobody knows for sure. In fact, by buying the artifacts, they're participating in the market and pushing up prices, benefiting ISIS, even if their pieces weren't looted.

I'm often surprised by how many people hold absolute religious views when it comes to other people but have extremely flexible ethics when it comes to themselves. I suppose I shouldn't be.

Your points are valid. The few of us that have said we would deal in certain situations said we wouldn't be happy to do it, but would under certain circumstances if we felt the greater good was served. What if terrorists kidnapped a family member of yours? Would you pay the ransom? Or would you refuse knowing that they would be killed if you didn't pay. If you pay, you can be fairly certain that the money would be used to fund more terrorism. Real choices that sadly, some people do have to make. I hope its never me or anyone I know.
 
Your points are valid. The few of us that have said we would deal in certain situations said we wouldn't be happy to do it, but would under certain circumstances if we felt the greater good was served. What if terrorists kidnapped a family member of yours? Would you pay the ransom? Or would you refuse knowing that they would be killed if you didn't pay. If you pay, you can be fairly certain that the money would be used to fund more terrorism. Real choices that sadly, some people do have to make. I hope its never me or anyone I know.

Equating the taking of a life to willfully buying ancient artifacts and NOT saving a life I believe are two entirely different things with two entirely different motives.
 
I hope this doesn't get the thread closed, [deleted, religious]
 
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I really would not mind if this thread was closed now.
 
I deleted the bulk of a post that attempted to explain his religion. Although it was clear, concise, and well written, it was beyond the rules of this forum and prompted several more comments that I also deleted. The theme of several of them was that this thread has run its course and should now be closed. I'm not entirely ready to do that, but I don't necessarily disagree either. If you have something constructive to add, feel free. Further posts that drift too far off topic, or into religion, or politics and we're done.
 
It depends- are they getting the motors legitimately, or are they secretly getting packages from Estes labelled "snozzberries" in the middle of the night?

These snozzberries definitely do NOT taste like snozzberries.
 
I think the reason this story is compelling is that it's about hypocrisy. This family has used the law to impose its own morality on its employees, and now it gets caught breaking the law, dealing in stolen property, and smuggling. A classic example of the wealthy using the law when it suits them and flouting it when it doesn't. Often rich folks get away with it, so it's fun when you get to see the self-righteous exposed as hypocrites!

The Green family fought a court case about not having a single penny of their money go toward supporting employee health coverage they feel is immoral, so it would be good to know if any of the artifact money went to terrorists.

I'm often surprised by how many people hold absolute religious views when it comes to other people but have extremely flexible ethics when it comes to themselves.

Absolute versus flexibility... These are always the points where I start to think that scientific laws apply to human subjects, as well. For example: relativity... From one perspective, the views are absolutist while from another perspective they're quite consistently flexible. Or inertia... Once a group of religious followers are on a path of moral justification, they just keep on rolling in that same direction.

As far as Hobby Lobby goes... It's a store. A friggin store. I'm more of the Fight Club mindset in all this... Why do I know who "Mr. Green" is? I mean really... What a complete waste of my brain space. Why am I even bothering to read this thread? Or further, to comment on it? My life is neither improved nor damaged by this information. Why in the heck do I know what a duvet is?
...
...
Us humans are a really wonky species.
 
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