Estes Saturn V CATO - Post Analysis?

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Yep, Bernoulli lock. You had almost the worse case scenario setup for this with a wide based rocket, recessed motor mount, low thrust motor, and no gap with the plate. Sorry it got toasted. I hope this doesn't discourage your daughter from rocketry. Good on you too for going with the pink paint job she wanted.

I came very close to doing a similar thing with a rocket once (TLP Krypton in my case). Were it not for a club member catching me (I think it was Chas) it would have likely sat and burned in front of me. Bernoulli lock in particular is a very counter intuitive phenomenon, so don't feel too bad about it.

Oh no worries. She was a little bummed out, but she has 37 successful launches under her belt. And she is only four years old. :) We are going to repair the bottom end of this Rocket and put some customized fins on it. I'll make sure the CP and CG relations are correct, and then try to launch it again with a GAP between the pad and rocket. Pinker and better than before!!!

I was always a little weak with my fluid dynamics. Now I need to break out the old texts and brush up...
 
BTW, no need to fill out a form or call Estes :(


Yeah, I won't fill out a MESS report, but I DO think a note to Estes would be useful. They should really be aware of this phenomenon with this Saturn V kit.

As a male, and worse, an engineer, I often to toss instructions in the trash right for step zero. HOWEVER for this kit, I followed the instructions very closely (with exception of launch rod he he...) If they would have recommended a launch gap, I would have followed it. I was always suspicious of that recessed mount, but I wasn't sure why...

At a minimum, I think they should emphasize the gap between the plate for launch.
 
Well, giving them a heads-up might be useful. Is this that pad they recommend in the instructions, or do they even address it? Anyway, let us know what they say.

I still want the video :)
 
So this is embarrassing. I reviewed the "Launch Rocket" section of Saturn V instructions.

STEP 1 : Wrap masking tape around launch rod eight inches above deflector plate.

Ooops.

My apologies everyone! At least I learned a new concept to be wary of (i.e. Bernoulli Effect)

And for the sadists who may enjoy the video, here ya go...

https://youtu.be/5iSWi3yUrG0
 
I'm a little confused here, you stated the engine was recessed 3" 3/8" right? This is LESS than the diameter of the rocket which I'm guessing is 3.98 inches right?
 
I'm a little confused here, you stated the engine was recessed 3" 3/8" right? This is LESS than the diameter of the rocket which I'm guessing is 3.98 inches right?

FAIW, that is close enough for Mr. Bernoulli.
 
A (lenghty) follow-up message for all who may be interested.

Bottom Line Up Front: We had a successful launch after a week of repairs! Video link at bottom of this message.

When the launch failure occurred last week, I had no idea what the problem was. I was hesitant to try it again without knowing root cause, so I wasn't sure we’d ever launch the Saturn V again. Thanks to all the replies on The Rocketry Forum. With the conclusion of Bernoulli Lock, I was motivated to try again with confidence of success.

There was more damage to the rocket and support equipment than I originally realized. Here is a list of the damage and the repair details:

1.) Bottom of rocket was burned to a crisp. This included the plastic fins. I cut off about two inches of the damaged body and peeled off the melted plastic. (The motor mount is recessed about 3-½ inches, which made this trim job possible.) The lower disk for the motor mount was also badly damaged, so we cut a new disk and glued it in. We knocked off the ashes and charred bits, and gave it a quick primer coat.

2.) The fins were melted beyond repair, so we had to improvise. We cut out some replacements from a heavy duty plastic notebook cover. We tried to keep the same form factor. Once they were epoxied firmly to the body, I knew we had a chance to relaunch.

3.) One of the two parachutes for the main body was melted. The ejection charged blew the nose cone, but one of the parachutes stayed in the main body. (You can see this in the previous video, only one pops out.) The body tube acted like a chimney and the hot gases from the fire below melted it. I found an old plastic shopping bag that was hearty enough to make another parachute. Appropriately enough the bag was from Lakeshore Learning, a popular children’s educational store.

4.) The launch pad suffered damage too. During the failed launch, a hole was burned through the deflector plate and melted a hole hole on one of the plastic launch legs. Also, one of the plastic stand-offs that holds the plate was severely melted. The hole in the launch legs was no problem, merely a flesh wound. But I replaced all the stand-offs ¼-20 machince screws.

5.) As someone previously pointed out in the failed launch, the top stage “lawn darted” and the tip assembly was basically destroyed. I pared the assembly structure and epoxied the tip back on.

6.) Since the CG and CP were changed by modifications, I checked their locations for stability. Surprising, they were way too close (basically in the same place). To get about one caliber separation, I added four sticks of modeling clay (I think this was about 12 to 16 ounces, does that sound right??) in the nose cone. I have my suspicions that the original design was not weighted properly (but that’s a story for another thread. I have an Estes Patriot that was way off.)

7.) I didn’t realize until we were ready for relaunch, but the wiring assembly near the ignition alligator clips was torched too. The clips were completely coated in rocket exhaust residue, and the insulation was burned off and melted. Luckily I had a set of clips from my other launcher in the kit box. A quick splice job, and we were ready to go!

Oh yeah, we wrapped some tape on the launch rod, so the rocket had some space above the deflector plate. No Bournelli Lock for this launch!!!

We went to the high school and had a bit of an audience. The local softball team was prepping for a game. You can hear their “cheers” and “woo hoos” in the video. Good times.

Here is a link to the launch video.

https://youtu.be/43nfDzo4jyM

Sorry we don’t have the full flight!

Thanks again to everyone’s contribution here in solving the mystery. Our rocket has many launches in front of her. BTW, since this Saturn V has been modified so much, we have changed its name. We now call her “Phoenix 1.”
 
Super! While I never want a disaster, I like reworking rockets. So there is often a silver lining.
 
Great job persisting and getting her back in flying condition. And kudos for having the fortitude to go with that pink paint job. :) I think it's great!
 
We stuck with the E12-4 since I had bought a 3-pack. I had to add a lot of weight to the front end, and I think this motor was too small. With the added weight, the rocket didn't reach the altitude or coasting velocity that it otherwise may have. It was a violent parachute deployment because the whole thing was coming back down pretty fast when the ejection charge blew. The top half (with the added weight) has a goofy string/shock cord design to help it come down sideways (to protect the tip). The string broke, so it came down nose first and lawn-darted again. No big deal, a dab of epoxy has already fixed it.


Anyway, I have a couple composite E20-4 motors. Gonna load those up for the next launches.


Thanks again everyone.
 
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