How high to go without tracking?

Q-Aero said:

Find someone who go to NYPOWER with a Comm-Spec system, then you can just purchase the transmiter and if you lost the rocket the member just select your frequency and he will find your rocket. $ 50 and you run from 3 to 6 week on a battery depending if you get a 1 mile or 3 mile range . No need to charge LiPo battery betwen flight. Later you can purchase the Receiver, everything integrated, no hassle

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The 50mW Com-Spec tracker of old is history. The AT-2B is gone: https://theplanelocator.com/rcplane/at_2b.html If I was going to go there, I'd consider the 30mW tracker and nothing less unless it was a smallish rocket that wasn't expected to drift far.

Reason the 2B is gone is the FCC caught up with them as it violated the animal tracking rules. Those who have 'em should be as careful as possible
not to lose or damage them as they're impossible to replace now.
I have one but it's on the 1.25m Ham Band and they programmed my call sign on it so it's actually one of the legal versions of it.
I don't know why they didn't continue offering it in that form. It would be perfectly legal to use with licensed Ham Radio operators.

Kurt

rharshberger said:

At that same site I launched my L3 to 7400' , it drifted over a hill, thank goodness for my Eggtimer TRS and John with his binocs between the two we pretty much walked up to it. The rocket was in sight from apogee till it disappeared over the low hills due north of the racetrack. Now I use trackers on every flight they can fit in.

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Forgot to say that a hand-bearing compass is a really good thing for re-establishing that you are walking the right track. I've walked half a mile out from the racetrack along a bearing and was within 20' of the rocket. On a student's L2 project, the chute came out at apogee. He and I saw the rocket at the same time on the ground. I tracked visually and got bearings from the water tower, he tracked with GPS.

DavidMcCann said:

Track everything. It'll land in sight and 30 yards away

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Like, how it doesn't rain when you remember your umbrella?

boatgeek said:

Forgot to say that a hand-bearing compass is a really good thing for re-establishing that you are walking the right track. I've walked half a mile out from the racetrack along a bearing and was within 20' of the rocket. On a student's L2 project, the chute came out at apogee. He and I saw the rocket at the same time on the ground. I tracked visually and got bearings from the water tower, he tracked with GPS.

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The compass is a cheaper guide but if one has a handheld mapping GPS with a "Sight n' Go" feature, they can use that. That is a mapping GPS where one can sight a landmark (descending rocket) and lock a bearing to the target.
I've used it a half a dozen times with 100% success as long as one has a visual as the rocket gets lower and just about to touchdown. It might have a little advantage with a compass as it will keep the bearing lock if one has to
go around several obstacles before proceeding to the rocket. The compass might be a littler trickier to use if not walking a straight line to the target.

As far as Murphy's law with tracking, " Use a tracker and it will land close by every time." is concerned, if one does MD rockets with large motors, the per cent time that the flight will be completely sight unseen is very high from liftoff to landing.
Don't count on a visual recovery unless the upper air winds are randomly screwy enough to have the rocket land close to you. I don't know about you but I can only get the rail approximate to where I want to get the rocket to go.
I like to do a slightly downwind launch so any cocking will hopefully curve up into a low energy main or drogue apogee deployment. Of course one needs the right site for this but I sometimes don't get it to go where I want.

I STRONGLY recommend to "new" timers who are GPS tracking to get some experience with flights where you're not punching the rocket up to "outta sight land" for long periods of time. You can count on being able to get a visual if you have trouble for
one reason or another to get a track. Once you get confidence in your skills (and particular installation) you'll be able to do routine sight unseen for the entire flight and be comfortable in getting the rocket back expediently for the next rocket you
want to get off that day.

Of course you can motor up so you can have a nearly completely visual flight and if in a venue with a lot of structures, standing vegetation and depressions be assured you'll be able to get to the rocket that's in standing corn and get it back.
That's where a loud beeper can help. Tracker to get you close and ears to do the final pickup. One cannot beat that combination. Kurt

DavidMcCann said:

Track everything. It'll land in sight and 30 yards away

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This. My first flight with my BigRedBee had the nose cone on one side of my front bumper, the fuselage on the left side of my truck, and the parachute cord draped over top.

TheTehk17 said:

At Black Rock a couple years ago I flew a 54mm x 5ft rocket on a couple research I's, to 3400 ft, I don't recall having issues seeing it. Last year I flew the same rocket on a J420 to about 5000 ft and lost sight of it. So I think my personal limit for that size of rocket is 3500 ft. FWIW

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That sounds about right for me too. I have flown my 2.6" dual deploy DX3 over 3000 ft many times. I have never used a tracker but I almost always use binoculars. That said, I have also lost a few rockets over the years.

Why no tracking, you've already invested in a chute release. I'd spend $100 more and get an Egg Finder. I personally have launched to around 6,000 with just a chute release and had the rocket land less than 1/4 mile away (Although we didn't see the rocket land, once it was out of sight we didn't find it until a while after it had landed). Another option is to use some of this tracking powder that Apogee sells, so you will see the event at apogee. It works really well.

SoCalChris said:

Why no tracking, you've already invested in a chute release. I'd spend $100 more and get an Egg Finder. I personally have launched to around 6,000 with just a chute release and had the rocket land less than 1/4 mile away (Although we didn't see the rocket land, once it was out of sight we didn't find it until a while after it had landed). Another option is to use some of this tracking powder that Apogee sells, so you will see the event at apogee. It works really well.

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Like you present, have a completely sight unseen flight and the rocket recovery becomes more dicey. With the powder at apogee, one may or may not see the puff and if they can't get a visual on the way down, they are out of luck.
Even a landing 1/4 mile away doesn't help if one doesn't know which way to go. If it's in tall grass/vegetation, good luck. Kurt

I fly RDF in everything I want to get back. At least midpower and up. Never did so in low power.

markkoelsch said:

I fly RDF in everything I want to get back. At least midpower and up. Never did so in low power.

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+1 for that. You can loose any rocket. Some easier then others. My bosses boy launched his Estes rocket at our launch on a C6-7 that weathercocked and probably never got over 200 ft. It was never found again. Of course it was unpainted cardboard and bulsa landing in a field of corn stubble.

But the point is, you can lose any rocket and it doesn't have to be going very high.

I've already lost 2 this year so I don't want to make it a habit... I'll follow the advice I've been given and stay under the 2.5K range unless I have tracking. Which by the way, Michael will help me out with an Eggfinder setup. I also placed an order for a Mini with LCD so I'll be good to go for altitude going forward. Just need to build a mount that can transfer between rockets.

This has been very educational. Thanks everyone for sharing the expertise.

mrwalsh85 said:

Surprised no one from MARS has chimed in... MARS should have trackers available for loan (I think for club members, anyway)... Just make sure you get it back in one piece! I would contact one of the BOG members to coordinate with them on that regard.

mike

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I am a MARS member...

At this time of year the crops have just been or are about to be planted so there are no beans to worry about. I also know the field was just mowed for NYPower so the grass will probably be about 6" high next weekend. Also, the tree line that tended to block off visibility to the ENE of the pads has been cleared. You have a clear view of about 3,000' of field until you hit the trees at the start of the hill going up to Geneseo Univ.

Still, it can get windy there, and the upper altitude winds can be worse...and even come from a different direction than about 2,000' off the ground. Current forecast is for winds of about 8-10 MPH. A stiff breeze at 3,000' and above can land you on the edge of the open fields.

For those reasons and also because like you, I have a lot of floaters, I always use a tracker above about 2,500' there. At our club launches we insist on them above 4,000' or for all HPR flights to find them when the surrounding crops get higher.. Corn is a major pain, but beans in my opinion are worse because they completely swallow the rockets, chute and all. If you don't have a tracker, you are not going to find it.

We do lend them out to club members at club launches. To my knowledge though we usually don't at NYPower primarily because the crops are barely out of the ground. Several MARS club members are also HAMs so they could probably help you out with tracking. You could probably order a transmitter from BeeLine and get it by late next week if you ask them to rush delivery. Best bet is the 70 CM tracker. Plenty of people there could help you program the tracker and lend radio/antenna setups to help you track it.

There are people who take risks and fly without them. The majority do recover their rockets, but like every field, we have lost rockets. We really don't have that many, though, and one major reason why is that we use trackers.

I'm with the flow of the crowd, here. Since I bought a tracker, I don't think I've flown one high power flight without it. It's a wonderful peace of mind tool, and it has indeed helped in situations when I didn't think I'd need it.


Braden

tomsteve said:

How high to go without tracking?
i can get about 14,200' and recover easily-with an A8 launchin at the summit of pikes peak.

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Please try to keep it off my house when you land. I live on the Western slope of Pikes Peak.

Tinker