Worst Kit?

Woody's Workshop said:

With all the available parts suppliers out there these days, I would guess that the plan packs would do well.
I'd rather spend $12-$15 for a plan pack and the same amount for the kit in parts and build a quality product.
Verses a kit that plagues you with headaches to build and only lasts a few flights before landings does it in.
Or the trips to and from the launch area.
You have to remember when buying from Apogee thou, you are paying a premium for services available for free.
I haven't looked, but if they are sold by other vendors, they may be cheaper else wheres.

Click to expand...

I agree with premium service, but never understood it. I figure if you have a business you would want to offer premium service and your reward would be your customer base and overwhemling orders. Why does that have to cost more. I'm saying it should be a given.

For me, I would have to say some of the Estes Star Wars designs were the worst rocketry products ever released. The two that mostly come into my mind was the Naboo Royal Starship from Episode I.

I had both the mini and large versions. Both went unstable when I tried to fly them.:eyeroll:

Then you had the mini A10 powered X-wing that had the motor pod with a metal spike on it.

I couldn't resist weighing in on this. Though I am not much of a kit builder these days, (partly because of this reason) The Saturn V is a hands down vote for me. Along with the Mars Lander. The Sat V was the big special that was on Amazon a few years back and the Mars Lander was the reissue that came from SEMROC. I'm not bashing these companies, but there were no adequate improvements done to them over the years. In short, the embossed parts of the Mars Lander were almost non existent and the CR's were cut from cheesy material. Though they were precision cut and fit like a glove, the material was very low grade.

The Sat V was a big disappointment to me. All of my griefs on it were posted in a great many threads here going back as far as 6 years ago. As a youth, kits were what they were and we really didn't think twice about what was in the bag and just went with it. I built a Sat V back when you could get one for $9.95. Many moons ago. In 2011 I got 2 that were on sale at Amazon. 1 to build, 1 to save. Construction for the most part was pretty cut & dry until I got to the exterior pieces and parts, fins, fairings and wraps. Cheesy parts, ridiculous vacuformed fins and fairings, ill fitting cut-out parts and lug wraps. The build became totally frustrating with me working to upgrade and fabricate all of these parts to a point I completely lost interest. I now have both a Sat V and a 1B that are incomplete for the same reasons.

The bottom line is this. I feel, if you buy a kit, it should be flawless. All pieces and parts should be spot on and you shouldn't have to fabricate because of ill fitting or unimproved flaws from past productions. They shouldn't supply you with a shock cord that is 2/3 smaller that what it should be. Vacuformed parts should be able to withstand a touchdown without breaking to pieces. Parts made so cheaply so as to force you to find suitable replacement parts or force you fabricate them. Many times I have heard where people that buy kits, will discard 1/3 of the parts for adequate replacements parts. This isn't totally a matter of preference either. It's because you get a bag of trash.

Gary Byrum said:

I couldn't resist weighing in on this. Though I am not much of a kit builder these days, (partly because of this reason) The Saturn V is a hands down vote for me. Along with the Mars Lander. The Sat V was the big special that was on Amazon a few years back and the Mars Lander was the reissue that came from SEMROC. I'm not bashing these companies, but there were no adequate improvements done to them over the years. In short, the embossed parts of the Mars Lander were almost non existent and the CR's were cut from cheesy material. Though they were precision cut and fit like a glove, the material was very low grade.

The Sat V was a big disappointment to me. All of my griefs on it were posted in a great many threads here going back as far as 6 years ago. As a youth, kits were what they were and we really didn't think twice about what was in the bag and just went with it. I built a Sat V back when you could get one for $9.95. Many moons ago. In 2011 I got 2 that were on sale at Amazon. 1 to build, 1 to save. Construction for the most part was pretty cut & dry until I got to the exterior pieces and parts, fins, fairings and wraps. Cheesy parts, ridiculous vacuformed fins and fairings, ill fitting cut-out parts and lug wraps. The build became totally frustrating with me working to upgrade and fabricate all of these parts to a point I completely lost interest. I now have both a Sat V and a 1B that are incomplete for the same reasons.

The bottom line is this. I feel, if you buy a kit, it should be flawless. All pieces and parts should be spot on and you shouldn't have to fabricate because of ill fitting or unimproved flaws from past productions. They shouldn't supply you with a shock cord that is 2/3 smaller that what it should be. Vacuformed parts should be able to withstand a touchdown without breaking to pieces. Parts made so cheaply so as to force you to find suitable replacement parts or force you fabricate them. Many times I have heard where people that buy kits, will discard 1/3 of the parts for adequate replacements parts. This isn't totally a matter of preference either. It's because you get a bag of trash.

Click to expand...

You are spot on! I'm the same way. I end up throwing away half the kit to make it better with improved parts. Again I like the plan packs for certain kits. More options and you're not at the mercy of building the kit with low grade parts because the manufacturer wants to save a buck or the kit was made in China.

Worse kit for me is the E2X series from Estes. I'm not complaining about the fit, nor the finish, and not even the instructions. I'm focused on the build time & skill set it takes.. Or rather the time & skill set it doesn't take to put one of these things together. I can have it built, ready to fly in a night, with CA glue, built on the coffee table while watching TV. There is no skill involved, no challenge to assemble it, or even any of its parts or sub-assemblies. Heck, not even a chance to be creative with the colour scheme, it's all thought out, pre-planned, pre-done for you. They don't seem to teach you anything about building, taking time to do a good job, that you can screw up a part, an assembly...

dr wogz said:

Worse kit for me is the E2X series from Estes. I'm not complaining about the fit, nor the finish, and not even the instructions. I'm focused on the build time & skill set it takes.. Or rather the time & skill set it doesn't take to put one of these things together. I can have it built, ready to fly in a night, with CA glue, built on the coffee table while watching TV. There is no skill involved, no challenge to assemble it, or even any of its parts or sub-assemblies. Heck, not even a chance to be creative with the colour scheme, it's all thought out, pre-planned, pre-done for you. They don't seem to teach you anything about building, taking time to do a good job, that you can screw up a part, an assembly...

Click to expand...

Thats because it meets the attention spans of todays children for the most part.

That's a sad statement. I have a terrible attention span and still don't mind cutting balsa.

The worst kits are the BEST KITS!

I love my Das Modell - Noris kits. Absolutely despised by many North American kit builders for many reasons from parts, to design, to lack of instructions. Challenging and fun.
I love my TLP. The squishy balsa coated with label paper has never let me down. No more flight damage than on any other rocket. Built stock they are fine, some not great flying but they go up and come down.
I love my Estes Spaceship One E. What other kit can your bring to the RSO table with the flight card name reading "FOAMY HORROR SHOW." Just a few fixes required.
I love those Quest plastic parachutes. My Quest X-50 has always flown fine.
I loved my SHR Merc Redstone (OOP). Worked hard, had lots of fun and learned a lot before the deployment failure. The bits are still in the bag and can be put back together.
I love my Hostile Projectiles kits (OOP.) Just had to stuff in the nose weight and fly. Two outta three still flyable.

And then there is always the Estes Cosmos Mariner. I have not yet had the courage to buy one.

Ah, the return of the GOMRAKS (Grumpy Old Men Ranting About Kids these dayS). I started on E2X rockets, they were invaluable in getting me into the hobby until my skills were up to snuff for building more complicated kits. And yeah, most 8-10 year olds don't have the manual dexterity and patience to start with a TLP kit. Some of them should probably not be trusted with spray paint.

But if they're like me, E2X will spark their interest and eventually they'll crave a bigger challenge. Great! That's better than not starting at all, or starting with a frustrating challenge they weren't ready for and never getting to actually fly. Heck, even if they never go past E2X, so what? Flying rockets are fun, and frankly a kid lighting up over seeing an Alpha III fly is way more enjoyable than a GOMRAK looking down his nose at you because you didn't grow your own organic free range balsa.

E2X are great because they are just what they say on the tin: an easy to build rocket that will get you flying with minimal fuss, successfully and reliably. I actually just put one together the other day because it was cheap and I wanted a schoolyard demo rocket that I didn't mind a first grader stepping on. I made a couple minor upgrades, but didn't need to. All the parts fit and went together easy, and the result was a big colorful rocket I could fly the same day.

Anyway, to me a good kit is one that lets you produce what it shows on the box by following the instructions, with the included materials. Nothing wrong with a "craftsman" kit, as long as that's what you were sold. TLP or FlisKits making you fabricate a lot of parts is totally fine - they don't promise otherwise, and sometimes that's fun. But having to throw out or extensively modify parts because they are low quality, broken, don't fit, or don't look like the cover art sucks. It's one thing if you want to upgrade, but you shouldn't have to.

So worst kit for me was probably the Estes Shuttle, not the Masters series full stack (never had that) but the foam orbiter with a rear eject pop pod. Glided like a brick and pop-pod got stuck half the time I tried to launch it despite what felt like hours of sanding.

Actually late 90s / early 2000s Estes had a bad habit of selling cool, big rockets with 18mm motor mounts that were way underpowered on C6-3s. Specifically I had the Death Star, Venus Probe, Sidewinder missile, and Prowler (big BT-60 based 3FNC, not the more recent kit). All of them would have been vastly better on D power, and not just from a "bigger is better" perspective - they legitimately do not fly right on C6 motors except in perfect conditions.

I flew the Estes RTF X-15 and survived long enough to turn it in for the RTF Spaceship One - WHAT AN AWESOME DEAL! Fond memories of the 2000's. Once the kid flies his Taser on a C and then turns to his dad and says he wants to fly one with a bigger motor, who cares if the Taser's plastic motor mount has melted away.

Oberon said:

E2X will spark their interest and eventually they'll crave a bigger challenge. Great! That's better than not starting at all, or starting with a frustrating challenge they weren't ready for and never getting to actually fly. Heck, even if they never go past E2X, so what? Flying rockets are fun, and frankly a kid lighting up over seeing an Alpha III fly is way more enjoyable than a GOMRAK looking down his nose at you because you didn't grow your own organic free range balsa.

Click to expand...

+1000

I don't get why some folks have such animosity towards E2x kits. If that was all Estes made, that'd be one thing, but as a gateway drug towards builder kits they're great.

No one's forcing advanced builders to buy these kits. If they help draw more kids into the hobby, how can that possibly be a bad thing?

Estes makes some great looking E2X rockets. I have a couple, and a couple more on my wish list.
Not that I want them to fly, but as a template to scratch build one the right way, and/or upscale.

Just look at my Saturn V to find the issues I've had with Sheri's version. On the same note, I didn't have any issues with her MR. I had bought both from Dave at RAH yet that Saturn was just worlds apart from the MR as far as quality was concerned. Go figure.

Plastic nose cones and vacuum formed parts suck, IMO.

Oberon said:

Actually late 90s / early 2000s Estes had a bad habit of selling cool, big rockets with 18mm motor mounts that were way underpowered on C6-3s. Specifically I had the Death Star, Venus Probe, Sidewinder missile, and Prowler (big BT-60 based 3FNC, not the more recent kit). All of them would have been vastly better on D power, and not just from a "bigger is better" perspective - they legitimately do not fly right on C6 motors except in perfect conditions.

Click to expand...

I remember how underpowered the Venus Probe was on a C6-3. I fixed that by building a second one and flew it on an 18mm RMS D13-4W.:wink:

I also upgraded the launch lugs to the beefier 3/16 inch lugs instead of the stock 1/8 inch lugs as they could barely support the hefty weight of this thing.

When I built my first one back when it first came out, I had no idea that 18mm D motors even existed.

Today I received an email from Michelle at Apogee components informing me that they had sold out of the large size Guillotine Fin Jigs. So when some folks use threads like this to bash Apogee, I just grin all the way to the bank. :grin:

tmacklin said:

give that little gnome who rules North Korea an attitude adjustment. :wink:

Click to expand...

Get him in line?

Maybe they're starting or plenishing a high power rocket club.


I think we should alter the topic to kits that fall short of what they're advertised/sold as. You shouldn't condemn a builders kit for needing to be built or a E2X for being easy to assemble.

tmacklin said:

Today I received an email from Michelle at Apogee components informing me that they had sold out of the large size Guillotine Fin Jigs (actually short one) because the Navy (ours, I hope) had actually ordered two. So when some folks use threads like this to bash Apogee, I just grin all the way to the bank. I hope that someday the Navy will put my little creation to good use and give that little gnome who rules North Korea an attitude adjustment. :wink:

Click to expand...

No one is bashing Apogee. It seems that some basic facts are being stated. Certain kits they produce fall short of what they are worth.

AfterBurners said:

No one is bashing Apogee. It seems that some basic facts are being stated. Certain kits they produce fall short of what they are worth.

Click to expand...

I believe they blow mold those cones in house, so if you got a bad one I would be surprised if they did not send you a replacement cone or kit.

A lot of my stuff is built from reject nose cones and tubes they put in the free bin at the store.

I just listen the the Burl Ives renditions of "Silver and Gold" and "Have a Holly Jolly Christmas" on the Rudolf's Christmas Special and everything seems to get better.

"Silver and gold, silver and gold, how do we measure its worth? Just by the pleasure it brings here on Earth!"

I guess all I have to say about bad kits is that the worst ones are the ones I don't have.

rstaff3 said:

I guess all I have to say about bad kits is that the worst ones are the ones I don't have.

Click to expand...

+1 to that, esp. ones you can't get anymore.

dhbarr said:

+1 to that, esp. ones you can't get anymore.

Click to expand...

+2 For real. My biggest regret is missing the opportunity to buy a "DUDE". :eyeroll:

Gary Byrum said:

+2 For real. My biggest regret is missing the opportunity to buy a "DUDE". :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

My (ex) wife and son gave me one for (insert father's day, birthday, christmas here; I don't recall what the occasion was...). Flew it in my west yard to about 50ft...
As if the 12" parachute actually did anything... Flew it three times, and the third time it landed in the neighbors pine tree. That was the end of that. Did you know those pine needles are pointy??? :eyeroll: It actually didn't fly too bad. A little squirrely, but not unstable, just funny.

Gary Byrum said:

+2 For real. My biggest regret is missing the opportunity to buy a "DUDE". :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

4 on ebay now. Looks like about $40 each. A bit much for a glorified balloon.

cavecentral said:

4 on ebay now. Looks like about $40 each. A bit much for a glorified balloon.

Click to expand...

A glorified balloon indeed, but ya gotta give Estes props for having the cojones to ever actually sell that as a kit. Certainly some outside-the-box thinking there.

neil_w said:

A glorified balloon indeed, but ya gotta give Estes props for having the cojones to ever actually sell that as a kit. Certainly some outside-the-box thinking there.

Click to expand...

Outside the box? I guess for Estes, it was. That idea turned my respect-o-meter down about 40%. I thought they just ran out of ideas. The DUDE was a joke.

Estes Cosmos Mariner. Worst. Kit. EVER.

Am I bashing Estes? Nope. Every manufacturer is going to generate a turd once in a while and this was Estes turd. A great big STINKY turd:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?272-Estes-Cosmos-Mariner&p=2839#post2839

The Cosmos Mariner is banned on mere sight at CRASH. It would take a Top Man with proven expertise to even approach the RSO table.

Worst kits: Early Quest kits. Couplers too short and loose. Iffy nose cones. Thin motor hooks. I think those are all long gone by now.
Weird kits: Early Sunward kits. Nice kits but some odd things like the early motor hooks. All used the same nose cone...
Best kits: Centuri.
Best instructions: Semroc.

Gary Byrum said:

+2 For real. My biggest regret is missing the opportunity to buy a "DUDE". :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

I do have to give some props to the Dude balloon rocket.
When one shows up at a club launch, everybody stops to watch it fly.
After it touches down there is always laughter and some applause.