Failure Analysis of Hyperion

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3stoogesrocketry said:
Matt , two altimeters are NOT required for a certification flight . Back in the day , motor ejection with a timer backup was pretty common. There is no reason you cannot use a single altimeter and a single event timer for your drouge back up . This is the exact same way I did my cert three flight. One perfect flight MAWD and a perfect flight single event timer . I used one charge per section.


Eric
Click to expand...
Electronics – Prior to a level 3 certification flight, the flyer shall successfully fly at least one rocket in the level 2 range using an electronic device as the primary means of recovery system deployment. Level 3 certification flights shall include at least two completely separate electronic devices, with independent power sources, wire harnesses, and ignition devices for the primary and back-up means of recovery system deployment.
 
blackbrandt said:
Electronics – Prior to a level 3 certification flight, the flyer shall successfully fly at least one rocket in the level 2 range using an electronic device as the primary means of recovery system deployment. Level 3 certification flights shall include at least two completely separate electronic devices, with independent power sources, wire harnesses, and ignition devices for the primary and back-up means of recovery system deployment.
Click to expand...

The Jolly Logic Chute Release is an electronic device with an independent power source...
 
noffie79 said:
The Jolly Logic Chute Release is an electronic device with an independent power source...
Click to expand...

That's a unique "loophole" and certainly not the intent of the rule as written. I would not consider it to meet the "primary and back up means of recovery system deployment" qualifier.
 
blackbrandt said:
One charge setting off the other is actually a reasonable theory. When I ground tested, I only loaded one charge. This will be a good thing to test in the future on redundant altimeters.

The only reason I was using 2 altimeters was because it was required for the L3 flight.
Click to expand...

In the copper tube canisters you used? Highly doubtful. Normally, it is only an issue if you loose charge in the bay with a thin containing material like sugrical tubing, glove tips, etc. If you prepped them like I do it shouldn't be an issue.
 
patelldp said:
That's a unique "loophole" and certainly not the intent of the rule as written. I would not consider it to meet the "primary and back up means of recovery system deployment" qualifier.
Click to expand...

The only way I think that this would qualify is in the following configuration: 2 altimeters for drogue deployment at apogee and 2 chute releases hooked together in series for the main. That makes each phase have a backup.
 
NateLowrie said:
In the copper tube canisters you used? Highly doubtful. Normally, it is only an issue if you loose charge in the bay with a thin containing material like sugrical tubing, glove tips, etc. If you prepped them like I do it shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...


The way I prepped the charges.... I stuffed some wadding in the bottom tightly to fill up the igniter hole at the bottom. This was to prevent the charge from blowing out at the bottom.
Then I poured my BP in.

Next, I took squares of masking tape and pushed them into the canister sticky side in.

The whole thing got a piece of tape over the top with the charge amount written on.
 
jd2cylman said:
OK why can't I say " don't
clutter it



up "





in a sentence????
WTF???


In my post above, there are no swear words in that sentence. No spaces either and it gets censored???
This is the only way I can post it and not have it censored...
However, later on I say HELL and that's OK????????
Click to expand...

Looks too much like "clitoris?"
 
jd2cylman said:
OK why can't I say " don't
clutter it



up "





in a sentence????
WTF???


In my post above, there are no swear words in that sentence. No spaces either and it gets censored???
This is the only way I can post it and not have it censored...
However, later on I say HELL and that's OK????????
Click to expand...


Adrian, There is a quirk here. I tried posting "all on" and "all **** and for some reason "all **** in the preview came out "all **** and I have no idea why.
The "all on" with quotes was displayed fine but "all **** wasn't. I changed it to all off without the quotes. There is something going on with the board software.
Holy Crap! There is goes again I change it back to all off and it's ok see. "all **** it's posted wrong. Mr. Moderator comment? Kurt
 
NateLowrie said:
In the copper tube canisters you used? Highly doubtful. Normally, it is only an issue if you loose charge in the bay with a thin containing material like sugrical tubing, glove tips, etc. If you prepped them like I do it shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...

I use glove tips (NITRILE mind you) and haven't had a problem. I have watched the backup charge fire while under main... No problems. I can also clearly see the events take place on the altimeter data.

I did read that there is a hole in the base of the charge well, which is cause for concern. I would have run it through a separate hole OUTSIDE of the charge well.. This could very well have caused a pressure spike in your av bay. Hopefully you are able to recover the altimeters and share the results of your data from altimeters for review!
 
mrwalsh85 said:
I use glove tips (NITRILE mind you) and haven't had a problem. I have watched the backup charge fire while under main... No problems. I can also clearly see the events take place on the altimeter data.

I did read that there is a hole in the base of the charge well, which is cause for concern. I would have run it through a separate hole OUTSIDE of the charge well.. This could very well have caused a pressure spike in your av bay. Hopefully you are able to recover the altimeters and share the results of your data from altimeters for review!
Click to expand...
I got the charge canisters from Nate, so I didn't design them. ;) I did plug the bottom of the charge canister with a lot of wadding though, so I don't think any of the charge came out the bottom.
 
NateLowrie said:
The only way I think that this would qualify is in the following configuration: 2 altimeters for drogue deployment at apogee and 2 chute releases hooked together in series for the main. That makes each phase have a backup.
Click to expand...

I see the philosophy here but I don't know if the chute release could take the loads of a large reefed main chute. Certainly, it could have helped with Matt's resultant flight profile but the little chute release might not be able to deal with the forces to keep the chute reefed close. If the force tension on the band is
high I wonder if it would keep the chute release jammed closed" If that were to happen, would be heart breaking to see a decent flight profile spoiled by the
main kept closed and a drogue recovery that results in a failure. Kurt
 
ksaves2 said:
I see the philosophy here but I don't know if the chute release could take the loads of a large reefed main chute. Certainly, it could have helped with Matt's resultant flight profile but the little chute release might not be able to deal with the forces to keep the chute reefed close. If the force tension on the band is
high I wonder if it would keep the chute release jammed closed" If that were to happen, would be heart breaking to see a decent flight profile spoiled by the
main kept closed and a drogue recovery that results in a failure. Kurt
Click to expand...
For some reason, I wouldn't trust a JLCR for a rocket of this size.
 
I had bad luck with the chute release 0 for 2. One my fault, one not sure. You need a drogue to provide something just in case it fails. However, the drogue tangled the main on a buddy's flight.
 
NateLowrie said:
In the copper tube canisters you used? Highly doubtful. Normally, it is only an issue if you loose charge in the bay with a thin containing material like sugrical tubing, glove tips, etc. If you prepped them like I do it shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...

Ive got copper cansisters in my 3" Darkstar. In ground testing I was popping them both, despite a TON of tape, and shooting my nosecone about 50 feet. Gave up and hung vials. No problem. *shrug*
 
jd2cylman said:
I've tried to stay away from posting in this thread, purely from a "don't clutter it *** point of view, but I have to chime in on the altimeter thing. I use a RRC3 and RRC2+ combination in a bunch of my rockets. Don't ask me how many pairs I have set up, because I have them spread all over the place :facepalm: At least 4 pairs I think. And I definitely used this combination in my L3. I've always observed the delay in the charges. There is however, the possibility that his primary drogue charge set off the backup charge though. I don't think I've seen that mentioned. I apologize if it has been mentioned, but I just wanted to point out the altimeter thing.
OK, now that I've said that, I feel better. I'm sure you guys feel better that I feel better... :eyeroll:
But, seriously...
Matt, I'm sad as all hell that you lost your rocket. That sucks big time. I'm also happy about the attitude you have going forward. I've no doubt that you'll be successful on your next attempt. Why don't you take the weekend off from college this fall (it's not that important, is it? :wink: ) and come fly with us at Midwest Power this fall...
Good luck and keep up the good attitude!
Click to expand...

I have two sets of RRC3/RRC2 where they demonstrably sense Apogee and Apogee+1 sec so close to each other that it appears as a ripple fire, dramatically over pressurizing the fuselage and leading to violent seperation. I know that it IS NOT a ripple fire because ground testing one charge with the other live charges installed, a ripple fire DOES NOT occur. One is a 4 inch cardboard rocket, the other is a 2.56 inch fiberglass rocket, both have the charges built into centrifuge vials and then installed into PVC charge holders, well packed and well taped. Communications that I have from Missile Works suggests that there is enough 'wiggle' in the algorithm and the tolerances of the components that I could very well have 2 golden sets of 'tolerance' stack. If the goose laid not 1, but 2 golden eggs....I'm willing to be that it can lay several others as well. Recommended fix-use 2 of the SAME altimeter for main and back up.



Buckeye said:
Altimeters, even of the same make/model, rarely give the same result. There can be 1 second of apogee error between the two. One altimeter with four deployment channels to handle the primary and backup charges may be a better approach. The single altimeter logic will ensure the firing sequence you want.
Click to expand...

This
 
It's too bad altimeters don't come with an "apogee +2" setting. 1 second is a pretty slim margin.
 
Bat-mite said:
It's too bad altimeters don't come with an "apogee +2" setting. 1 second is a pretty slim margin.
Click to expand...

Eggtimer Quantum does. I usually set up my backup with +20% BP at apogee+2. Eggtimer also has a failsafe descent velocity. If the rocket is falling beyond a set rate, it triggers deployment. I'll have to check the docs, but I would think at failsafe, both main and drogue charges trigger as an "oh crap" effort to save the rocket. I set my failsafe at 200 fps.

Edit: I was incorrect. Only the main fires on failsafe trigger. Per the documentation, "FailSafe helps prevent this from happening by firing the Main chute if you exceed a specified velocity for a specified amount of time"
 
Last edited:
Bat-mite said:
It's too bad altimeters don't come with an "apogee +2" setting. 1 second is a pretty slim margin.
Click to expand...

RRC3

Drogue Delay** * * * Range: 1 to 30 / Default: 1
The Drogue Delay is used whenever you have selected a Deployment Mode setting of Dual Deploy Backup. **In all other
cases this settings is not used.**Whenever the RRC3 is designated in a backup role when using redundant altimeter systems,
you can delay the RRC3 Drogue event using this setting.**Should this delay setting be set for a long period, and the RRC3
determines the Main Event requires activation; the RRC3 will also override the Drogue Delay timer and activate the Drogue
Event.**The setting is entered in seconds
 
Bat-mite said:
It's too bad altimeters don't come with an "apogee +2" setting. 1 second is a pretty slim margin.
Click to expand...

The RRC3 does. That's why I'm considering making my RRC2+ the primary for drogue separation and using 2 or 3 seconds for the backup (RRC3). On my current project, the motor charge at a 14 second delay should occur four seconds after apogee, so I don't want to make the backup delay too long and (slight) risk a possible double charge happening if the main charge fails.

I do wish the RRC2+ had a two-second option, though.
 
mccordmw said:
Eggtimer Quantum does. I usually set up my backup with +20% BP at apogee+2. Eggtimer also has a failsafe descent velocity. If the rocket is falling beyond a set rate, it triggers deployment. I'll have to check the docs, but I would think at failsafe, both main and drogue charges trigger as an "oh crap" effort to save the rocket. I set my failsafe at 200 fps.

Edit: I was incorrect. Only the main fires on failsafe trigger. Per the documentation, "FailSafe helps prevent this from happening by firing the Main chute if you exceed a specified velocity for a specified amount of time"
Click to expand...

The drogue has to been triggered first for the failsafe to kick in. The idea is that if the drogue is triggered but doesn't come out, failsafe will fire the main to keep you from going ballistic. You can adjust the failsafe trigger velocity and time from nose-over so if you go drogueless and have a relatively high descent rate it won't accidentally trigger.
 
rockdoc said:
I would not recommend using this for a primary or secondary recovery means.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't either, but couldn't one wrap their main with the CR, and if the main is deployed at apogee for some reason, at least it won't drift so far? And if the main charge is set for 1000', the CR could be set for 800. If anything it could save the owner a really long walk or drive to recover and could keep a potentially lost rocket on the flying field.
 
markkoelsch said:
Nate , care to share this program? If you do, shoot me a PM. Happy to host it on rocketryfiles.com
Click to expand...
+1 I went back and re-read your build thread and your L3 documentation looking for references to a location. Sounds really great, especially for those of us green to the L3 but aspiring to go there! btw. loved the L3 documentation!
 
going forward I for one am not flying above 4000 feet with out RF as backup

Yesterday better radio ordered for above , Baofeng I have is garbage


Matt when you find your rocket I bet the battery came loose and messed up on eggfinder not being mounted
 
Police department called me back and said they will contact me if anything turns up.
 
3stoogesrocketry said:
Matt , two altimeters are NOT required for a certification flight . Back in the day , motor ejection with a timer backup was pretty common. There is no reason you cannot use a single altimeter and a single event timer for your drouge back up . This is the exact same way I did my cert three flight. One perfect flight MAWD and a perfect flight single event timer . I used one charge per section.
Eric
Click to expand...

blackbrandt said:
Electronics – Prior to a level 3 certification flight, the flyer shall successfully fly at least one rocket in the level 2 range using an electronic device as the primary means of recovery system deployment. Level 3 certification flights shall include at least two completely separate electronic devices, with independent power sources, wire harnesses, and ignition devices for the primary and back-up means of recovery system deployment.
Click to expand...

Yuh huh.. You just proved his point :)
 
kcobbva said:
+1 I went back and re-read your build thread and your L3 documentation looking for references to a location. Sounds really great, especially for those of us green to the L3 but aspiring to go there! btw. loved the L3 documentation!
Click to expand...

I PM'd Mark with this. I will be happy to share the program but it needs some work to make the interface more accessible. Right now it's in 2 parts: a C command line app to generate the output and then rather hackish script to generate a graph using the google graphing package. In order for it to really be usable I need to tweak the interface so the average person doesn't have to compile it with make, run it, and feed the output into a python script. I'll see what I can do to get this done in the next week or 2.
 

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