when will we hear where LDRS 2018 will be held??

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The only LDRS I've been to was last year's 35 at ROC, which to this n00b seemed to run pretty smoothly apart from the ubiquitous afternoon wind storms. But a couple thoughts:

1) As a newer flier participating but mostly spectating, the volume of large rocket launches really is the draw, so I'd really hate to see that go away.

2) I wouldn't want to limit fliers to X number of flights, but maybe you could give everyone a punch card and have a separate line for people who haven't flown yet that day? That way, everyone gets to launch at least once a day, but you can still fly all you want if there's pad space available.

3) One of the frustrating hold ups at busy launches is the guy who slips in on the last pad in a rack after everyone else is ready to go and then spends a ton of time setting, unsetting, checking, rechecking his complex 2-stager he's apparently never dry-fitted or check-listed. I get it's stressful out there, but have some courtesy and get your stuff together before you get to the pad, have your procedure down smooth.

Perhaps the LCOs could run a timer for the pad and encourage everyone to be done by time X - not to get in a rush, but if you can't get ready in the time allotted, no problem, leave it in a safe state on the pad, come back to the line, let the rest of the rack launch, and go finish setting up for the next cycle. You could even have a pre-announced "complex launch window" or a "complex launch rack" where double time is allotted per cycle for stuff you know is going to take a long time to set. That way the motor-eject-single-deploy-woosh-poppers can get their high volume in, instead of making everything operate at the pace of the slowest rockets.

4) I'd be totally cool with a "volunteer only" launch window at some point to let the hardworking folks who put the event together get a chance to fly.
 
DavidMcCann said:
The sexond would be more contraversial- limiting the number of flights per flier, and a strict limit of only high flights during call-in windows. This would lower the amount of back ups at the pads, make for more meaningful flights, and the ability to watch more flights and see the result. It would also reduce the number of rockets landing on neighbors.
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Assuming that people flying too many rockets at an rocket launch is a problem; you could make range fees a function of motor sizes flown with a structure that encourages larger motors.
 
tHoagland said:
Assuming that people flying too many rockets at an rocket launch is a problem; you could make range fees a function of motor sizes flown with a structure that encourages larger motors.
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The goal isn't so much to increase motor size. I see as much value in someone popping their l1 on an H133 as a guy launching his fifth O3400. Those flights are both important- and should be treated as such.

Its the total volume that that becomes an issue. Any delay piles up that much faster. If you have a weather delay or forecast, people pop off as much as possible as fast as possible. And you run into things like someone launching a K off the 500' pads during a callin window and a guy who drove 800 miles misses the window for his 18k flight.


No easy anwsers. Everyone wants to fly, and fly a lot. We all put a lot into going to these events, and should enjoy it. I don't know a fair or good way to do it, to be honest. And a pay per flight rule would kind of stink. But I do know that minimizing flights would help make he event smoother and less impact on surrounding areas.
 
DavidMcCann said:
The goal isn't so much to increase motor size. I see as much value in someone popping their l1 on an H133 as a guy launching his fifth O3400. Those flights are both important- and should be treated as such.

Its the total volume that that becomes an issue. Any delay piles up that much faster. If you have a weather delay or forecast, people pop off as much as possible as fast as possible. And you run into things like someone launching a K off the 500' pads during a callin window and a guy who drove 800 miles misses the window for his 18k flight.


No easy anwsers. Everyone wants to fly, and fly a lot. We all put a lot into going to these events, and should enjoy it. I don't know a fair or good way to do it, to be honest. And a pay per flight rule would kind of stink. But I do know that minimizing flights would help make he event smoother and less impact on surrounding areas.
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Those are all points I can agree with. I think the "obvious" answers are longer/additional national events but if course that takes more volunteers, hosts, fields, and effort. All things in short supply
 
I don't know, guys. I launched two rockets (well, actually the same rocket twice) over the course of three days, and I would have to say that it was the best launch I ever attended.

If a guy preps ten rockets at home and is ready to go when he gets there, why penalize him because someone who is prepping at the field hasn't had a turn yet?

Too many rules usually end up spoiling things. I think we should all have the attitude of Tom Cohen, who said to me, "I don't care if I launch anything or not. This is so much fun!" He spent almost all of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday driving people out to the away cells.

As for a guy missing his call-in window, did he communicate with the LCO or event organizers? Did he tell them what he needed so that they could make arrangements? Sometimes a little communication is all that is needed. if I had a big O project that I wanted to launch, I certainly wouldn't be depending on chance.
 
Sorry, I was talking about large launches in general, I wasn't at this LDRS, so it's not an example from this weekend. And really was just an example of one of many issues when fliers start backing up in line. That example was from the last LDRS we hosted. We knew the next two days and possibly the rest of the event was goi g to be rained out. So people stormed the pads. It was a breakdown of range officers and fliers who were told to go to a pad, then that pad being occupied by someone who just walked out, and then that person going out to the M pads because they saw a rail. It was a chaotic breakdown, it was embarrassing on our end in a few places, and something we worked to avoid at the following URRF. One of the things that helps avoid chaos is lower volume, and good range control. Which is again. Easier with lower volume.


not trying to rule fun to death, but if you have 300 plus people on the field, you need to have control of that, and that involves rules and a process. And, if you're trying to crank out as many flights as possible, that leads to chaos, fast
 
DavidMcCann said:
Sorry, I was talking about large launches in general, I wasn't at this LDRS, so it's not an example from this weekend. And really was just an example of one of many issues when fliers start backing up in line. That example was from the last LDRS we hosted. We knew the next two days and possibly the rest of the event was goi g to be rained out. So people stormed the pads. It was a breakdown of range officers and fliers who were told to go to a pad, then that pad being occupied by someone who just walked out, and then that person going out to the M pads because they saw a rail. It was a chaotic breakdown, it was embarrassing on our end in a few places, and something we worked to avoid at the following URRF. One of the things that helps avoid chaos is lower volume, and good range control. Which is again. Easier with lower volume.


not trying to rule fun to death, but if you have 300 plus people on the field, you need to have control of that, and that involves rules and a process. And, if you're trying to crank out as many flights as possible, that leads to chaos, fast
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I was just getting steamed up about people who don't communicate their needs, or that expect that their needs won't be met if they do communicate them.
 
DavidMcCann said:
not trying to rule fun to death, but if you have 300 plus people on the field, you need to have control of that, and that involves rules and a process. And, if you're trying to crank out as many flights as possible, that leads to chaos, fast
Click to expand...
Several clubs across the country have figured out range control, some have not. I tend to believe our little club is pretty good at it. After every major launch, we sit down and have a debrief. We focus on what worked as well as what didn't. Then, before the next large event, we make sure everyone is on board with the current procedures. I personally feel it would be impossible to put rules into place that covers all prefectures for one really big reason. No two clubs face the same challenges of the combination of parking, range capacity, and qualified range personnel and then you throw the weather factor into the equation. What works in one location won't work in others. To be honest, if the Tripoli Board of Directors decided to write rules associated with launch operations rather than safety, many or all of them would probably be ignored.
 
Good points. I'm not sure where rules creeped into this, but I was more looking at how to change the tone of the event, or simply point out difficulties in hosting it. As you said, that will vary from site to site as will solutions.

I don't mean to say an event this size is inherently chaos or unmanageable. Simply that the volume is more than some places want to deal with or risk, and looking at things that may encourage more sites to host.
 
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I'm really curious, can someone list the clubs that could possibly do LDRS? Are there even 10 of them?
 
Swissyhawk said:
I'm really curious, can someone list the clubs that could possibly do LDRS? Are there even 10 of them?
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The problem is not launch sites or waivers it is getting members to step up, volunteer and actually do it.
There are prefectures who have repeatedly done LDRS and it is the same people doing the hard work every time. They get burned out and stop submitting bids.
We always are hearing why is LDRS not held (fill in region)? It is because no bid was submitted. There is no plan for it going east one year, west the next, there is usually only one bid. A lot of prefectures will submit, not be picked and not submit again, maybe the members who were enthusiastic left or??

M
 
Oberon said:
3) One of the frustrating hold ups at busy launches is the guy who slips in on the last pad in a rack after everyone else is ready to go and then spends a ton of time setting, unsetting, checking, rechecking his complex 2-stager he's apparently never dry-fitted or check-listed. I get it's stressful out there, but have some courtesy and get your stuff together before you get to the pad, have your procedure down smooth.

Perhaps the LCOs could run a timer for the pad and encourage everyone to be done by time X - not to get in a rush, but if you can't get ready in the time allotted, no problem, leave it in a safe state on the pad, come back to the line, let the rest of the rack launch, and go finish setting up for the next cycle.
Click to expand...

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. The "squeeze in one more guy" to the pads is a problem. A time limit is a good idea.

Same thing happened to me at the last big launch I attended, but the holdup was not a complex rocket. The rockets were finally racked, and the range was empty. All the HPR fliers were set up and waiting at the LCO table to start the flights. Altimeters are beeping, cameras are recording, GPS are transmitting, batteries are burning. Then, a newbie with his Aerotech Initiator strolls out to the adjacent MPR pads and takes his sweet ass time. He's fiddling with pad angle, buffing the launch rod, can't get the igniter inserted, and then can't figure out how to connect the leads to a Crapperhead. After 10 minutes of this, a few of us walked out and helped him. I didn't say it, but was mumbling to myself - "Dude, fly this rocket at your local park before coming here." Yeah, I sound like a snob, but it is stressful for everybody.

I think there are too few flights, not too many, at big launch events. There is a lot of dead time standing around and waiting. Wait at the RSO table. Wait for a pad assignment. Wait for the range to open. Wait for everybody to rack up. Wait to launch the rockets. That's easily a one hour cycle per rocket, and I do my prep at home.

Lastly, I am all for charging range fees on a per flight basis. When you check in, you buy launch cards at something like $2 to $5 per each. Each flight is occupying a pad, contributing to rail dirtiness, and consuming battery power for ignition. So, the more you fly, the more you pay, just like everything else in this world.
 
Pay to fly may not be a bad idea. The issues I'd see would be trying to budget an event for 100/300 fliers is hard, but predictable. If you budget for flights, that's going to be less predictable. Also if you rain out a day, and some guy is still holding four cards, or people just don't get to a flight, despite any "no rain out" policy you're going to have unhappy people. Could be a good solution though. Would be hard to set prices by size, and one price would hurt the lpr guys


we run two banks, load on left, while the right fires. Keeps a pretty steady pace going, and in theory at some point you close off loading and send anyone else to the other side. But you've gotta have range officers at the gate on top of that.
 
I've been to 3 LDRSs, 28, 34, and 36. All were fun and relatively well run but I see the same issues come up at all of them. I think a searchable list of "lessons learned" of what worked and what didn't for large launches hosted on the Tripoli site might be useful to any club bidding for LDRS or planning on hosting a large event.

One of the things that I think LDRS36 ran into was the effect of weather on what was being launched. Thursday and Friday were relatively slow because of rain, but I believe the wind on Saturday impacted what was being flown. I believe there were many more smaller (1/4" rod and 1010 rail) rockets being flown than larger 1515 rail rockets because of the winds. That led to long lines for people using 1010 rails and very slow lines for the few 1/4" rods on the A rack. I think there could have been more pads used, but the real issue was the number of each type of rod/rail available more so then the number of pads. If row C could have had 8 to 10 of the 16 pads with both 1010 and 1515 rails available, I think the lines would have moved much quicker, especially on Saturday.

I agreed with the hosts refusal to supply any rods on the HPR racks. Buttons are cheap and safer and there were plenty of vendors on-site where you could get them to retrofit a rocket.

Anyway, those are some of the "Lessons Learned" type things I think could be in a central list on the Tripoli site.
 
I have a friend who is L3 and has kept up his TRA membership but has not done much in the hobby over the last 5 years. He went to a 3 day launch on the 2nd day wanting to fly his 1st rocket in many years but didn't want to pay the $50 launch fee for 1 flight so he didn't fly. That was his choice but it would have been nice to have a way he could have just paid for the 1 flight. Not sure how a club could do this. Any ideas out there?
 
DavidMcCann said:
Pay to fly may not be a bad idea. ... Also if you rain out a day, and some guy is still holding four cards, or people just don't get to a flight, despite any "no rain out" policy you're going to have unhappy people. Could be a good solution though. Would be hard to set prices by size, and one price would hurt the lpr guys
Click to expand...

crossfire said:
..but didn't want to pay the $50 launch fee for 1 flight so he didn't fly.
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Right. It cuts both ways. If I am doing a big project that takes all day (like an altitude attempt and then looking for it), then I am not happy to pay $20-$50 for just one flight.

Pay per flight is a happy medium. It would force better planning by the participants. And, the launch cards don't have to expire. Come back next month or next year and use them!
 
BBrown said:
Several clubs across the country have figured out range control, some have not. I tend to believe our little club is pretty good at it. After every major launch, we sit down and have a debrief. We focus on what worked as well as what didn't. Then, before the next large event, we make sure everyone is on board with the current procedures. I personally feel it would be impossible to put rules into place that covers all prefectures for one really big reason. No two clubs face the same challenges of the combination of parking, range capacity, and qualified range personnel and then you throw the weather factor into the equation. What works in one location won't work in others. To be honest, if the Tripoli Board of Directors decided to write rules associated with launch operations rather than safety, many or all of them would probably be ignored.
Click to expand...

+1.

Everything with any launch is dependant on the weather..
Much more so for a big launch..
During a small club launch everyone drives 50 or 100 miles to get to the launch,,
if we all wind up talking under an EZ up all day because of the rain it can be disappointing...
But when you have literally hundreds of people that drove hundreds of miles to get a
launch in that they've been working on for months or more and the weather shuts the launch down
for days,, when the weather breaks you're going to have some difficulties..
The LDRS in Potter and the last LDRS in Maryland,, the launch equipment was in perfect order
then sat out in torrential rain and hurricane force driving wind for days...
Then we should be surprised that the equipment gets glitchy ??????????
How about lets complain to the guys that are trying to wring out the problems,, what's taking so longgggg...
Or no,, maybe we should fault the club and their preparations or experience level at hosting big launches ???????????????
I've been to big launches a lot lately,, I see one thing in common,,
a lot of people trying their heart out running their asses off doing anything necessary to accommodate....
My hats off to those that volunteer to help their local club run big launches..
It doesn't matter where the launch is,, what the name of the club is, or what the name of the launch is........

Teddy
 
Naw, they'd have to expire. If you sell 900 cards and 300 don't get used, you're taking a burn the next year for a ton of work.

At $45/50 a flier, I question if the proceeds are worth the time to run an event like this. If you where to cut that back to half the fliers paying for one or two flights at ten a pop even.... you're looking at killing these events.
 
Yeah, this gets complicated. Maybe a registration fee plus a usage fee? I am gonna drive my car on the farmer's field, take a parking space, and use the porta-potty whether I fly a rocket or not.
 
Buckeye said:
Yeah, this gets complicated. Maybe a registration fee plus a usage fee? I am gonna drive my car on the farmer's field, take a parking space, and use the porta-potty whether I fly a rocket or not.
Click to expand...

Bad idea. Have one fee for everything, being charged separately will drive flyers away.
A rocket launch is not a money making operation (especially LDRS), your lucky to break even.
I have been to every (except Potter 2) LDRS since 1988, I always pay the range fees even if I had no intention of flying.

That said if you are sponsoring an LDRS do what's you think is best.
If you are not going to sponsor an LDRS..............

M
 
I think the discussion isn't how it should be done, but floating ideas to make it more attractive to host, considering the small number of willing sites. Of course anyone willing to host can do it however they want. But are there ways to increase the number of willing sites?

Anyone hosting it is doing it out of love of rocketry, and hate for themselves, but I'm wondering here if there are better ways to do it, to make it easier to run, and increase the sites able to do it. I see the two big roadblocks being launch system, and site impact.

Of course, if we don't need to increase the number of willing hosts, no need for discussion.
 

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