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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteNumber2 View Post
    I guess I don't see it. Can you quote it for me?

    This:

    I have not found the reason for the mid February date of no editing

    Blessings,

    John
    NAR#87984
    L1 - Airfest - September 6, 2015

    It can't be my second childhood, I haven't finished my first one yet.

    "If I were giving a young man advice as to how he might succeed in life, I would say to him, Pick out a good father and mother, and begin life in Ohio." - Wilbur Wright, January 10, 1910

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peartree View Post
    This:
    That's not what I'm asking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteNumber2 View Post
    Angie, will you please address what prompted the change in users being allowed to delete their posts?
    Maybe as long as you're here, could you answer that?


  3. #33
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    Angie said previously:

    You cannot delete your posts, as this is a way of threads being disrupted. The mods and admins can delete spam posts or posts with a decent reason for the deletion.
    My take on what she said, is that she may not have been aware that messages COULD previously be deleted on TRF. Some forums do not allow deletion of posts, for example RC Groups (I've seen someone who did a massive rage quit and, unable to delete their old posts, went in and deleted the CONTENT of all their posts).

    TRF did allow posts to be deleted until recently.

    It sounds like there has not been a policy change by her or the admins. Now if indeed there was an intentional change, I think there should be an explanation why and what kind of forum incident would have caused such a decision.

    This inability to delete messages may have happened as a side effect of something else. And given the "bug" of not being able to change any posts before Feb 18th, and people not reporting a problem with deleting a post till after then, they may be related.

    Unless the site owner actually intentionally made such a change.

    To close, message #27:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    I'm still checking things. I don't have all the answers for you yet, and will not answer what it could be until I know for sure.
    Last edited by georgegassaway; 22nd March 2017 at 04:48 AM.

    Contest flying, Sport flying, it's all good.....
    2016 Bike Mileage total: 1843 miles. 5 Miles a day for the year!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteNumber2 View Post
    That's not what I'm asking about.



    Maybe as long as you're here, could you answer that?
    I think you're asking the same question, having it answered, and asking it again.

    From what I'm reading of Angie's answers, it seems that she doesn't know why it changed, or what caused the change, or why it happened on a particular date. She's not a programmer so she is asking the technical people who can figure it out. Rather than guess, she is not giving you an answer other than "I don't know" until such time as she has information that is based on fact and not just a guess.

    None of us like getting "I don't know" for an answer, but so far, that's all there is.

    Since she arrived, Angie has been a straight shooter and gets back to us in a reasonably timely manner whenever possible. I have no reason to doubt that this will the case this time as well. But the timing of her response does depend on the techs that manage multiple forums taking the time to investigate this particular problem.

    Stay tuned. When we know, you'll know.
    Blessings,

    John
    NAR#87984
    L1 - Airfest - September 6, 2015

    It can't be my second childhood, I haven't finished my first one yet.

    "If I were giving a young man advice as to how he might succeed in life, I would say to him, Pick out a good father and mother, and begin life in Ohio." - Wilbur Wright, January 10, 1910

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  5. #35
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    Hah, back in the day when TRF started, only mods/admins could delete posts. What is old is new again.
    Dick Stafford
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstaff3 View Post
    Hah, back in the day when TRF started, only mods/admins could delete posts. What is old is new again.
    I think the real question is more about editing than deleting, but I understand what you're saying.
    Blessings,

    John
    NAR#87984
    L1 - Airfest - September 6, 2015

    It can't be my second childhood, I haven't finished my first one yet.

    "If I were giving a young man advice as to how he might succeed in life, I would say to him, Pick out a good father and mother, and begin life in Ohio." - Wilbur Wright, January 10, 1910

    _____________________________________

    My Blog
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  7. #37
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    Yes, but I had nothing to say about editing as I'm sure someone will figure out how to change it back. Meanwhile, TRF marches forward.
    Dick Stafford
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  8. #38
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    The deletion must have been changed by the owner as he was changing things to increase security and he usually has forums set to have no deletion by members. The reason is that deleting a post or thread can disturb the flow of a conversation. And as another has said, it has happened where a person that did not get their way will start at the first post and delete them all before blowing up and being banned or just leaving.

    The only update to this is that the original only mods and admins can delete is returned and I do not know which previous admin may have allowed the delete by member for their own posts. The forum was security audited and the deletion was found no set to the setting the owner thought it was set at.

    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).

    These are the reason and the settings.

  9. #39
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    I personally have no problem with the 'no delete rule as that's how it used to be so that ability is new-ish anyway. As for the editing restriction, that is quite new. There are several threads that are quite old and contained things like lists of rocket links, for example. I guess workarounds will have to be made for those, such as copying the old data to a new post and then edit that content.
    Dick Stafford
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).
    I respectfully disagree with this. Here is a post I made originally on 9/21/16, and last edited on 1/24/17; that's more than four months. So something *has* changed recently.

    I actually am on board with the "no delete" policy, but the newly instituted time limit on editing is definitely going to cause some problems. Or maybe "frustration" is a better word.
    My photo albums: fleet pics and OR Models

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).

    These are the reason and the settings.
    No, that s definitely a change. In my SpaceX Falcon-9 Historic Landing thread, created December 2014, I edited the title, as well as message #1, several times. I last edited the first message in May 2016. Check the first message's "last edited" date compared to the creation date, about 17 months apart.

    http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...cent-missions)

    And I WANTED to edit it soon (to alter the thread name as I used to do a lot before each landing attempt) because next week is supposed to be a historic launch. First re-used first stage of an orbital class rockets, which is the actual reason for having the Falcon first stages land safely, to re-fly them.

    Now the only way to "flag" that news to make people aware of that would be to start a new thread and urge people to respond to the other thread, but inevitably lazily people would reply to THAT new thread and not the actual long running thread that has been building up to this..


    For other threads it also helps in being able to go back and give updates and corrections, even warnings.

    Over on RC Groups (and Kerbal Space Program), some of the threads that introduce a new item or project, the first or second message is often edited many times to provide a compilation of useful information "buried" far down in what are sometimes dozens or even hundreds of pages long threads. Or updated links, and so forth.

    Indeed there was a problem with the Estes Little Joe-II kit, the instruction "showed" an image (no words) of what looked like typical Testors type tube glue for styrene, to glue the fins and launch lugs to the plastic corrugated body wrap, as well as other parts. But it turned out that the body wrap was not styrene, it was some other kind of plastic that requires a very specific kind of glue to bond to properly. The Testors type glue did not melt-bond the fins and lugs to the wrap as expected. And when I flew mine for the first time, the E15 engine thrust spike caused the lower launch lug to let go, causing the model to start to pitch, then the second lug broke off, pitching far more, and it ended up flying horizontally and crashing at very high speed. All because of the wrong glue, that the instructions implied was the right glue.

    So, both James Duffy and I updated our messages to warn about that. He updated message #1 at the very top to warn people about it.

    http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...-Modifications

    This is the kind of serious consequence that not being able to edit messages can cause. People may only read the first few or skip to the last few. Or some may want to edit something that is seriously wrong, not realized for a long time, that they would want to edit to fix.


    I mean, what's next? Perhaps a "time limit" for how long a thread can be active and then get auto-locked after 60 days after it was begun, for "security"?

    Just ridiculous.
    Last edited by georgegassaway; 23rd March 2017 at 05:35 AM.

    Contest flying, Sport flying, it's all good.....
    2016 Bike Mileage total: 1843 miles. 5 Miles a day for the year!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    The deletion must have been changed by the owner as he was changing things to increase security and he usually has forums set to have no deletion by members. The reason is that deleting a post or thread can disturb the flow of a conversation. And as another has said, it has happened where a person that did not get their way will start at the first post and delete them all before blowing up and being banned or just leaving.

    The only update to this is that the original only mods and admins can delete is returned and I do not know which previous admin may have allowed the delete by member for their own posts. The forum was security audited and the deletion was found no set to the setting the owner thought it was set at.

    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).

    These are the reason and the settings.
    Angie,

    When it comes to editing posts, I can assure you that this 28 days is a change to the norm.

    I've been editing changes to my .ork files thread ever since it first got started. I was able to routinely go back into my old posts and delete old outdated .ork files and replace them with newer versions that included corrections, refinements, and improved imaging from the beginning. I frequently accessed my 2nd post in that particular thread to update the index to reflect the newest additions to the list. If this alteration doesn't get undone, errors that I have recently discovered cannot be corrected in a way that would prevent someone from continuing to use them, improved images cannot be substituted in, and with the upcoming improved OpenRocket release, altitude robbing tricks cannot be changed into accurate aerodynamic simulations.

    Whatever was done needs to be undone. The types of blowups you've pointed out for the deleting are rare. Perhaps if there is some kind of backup where the forum is archived, you could use that to restore the posts edited or deleted by an angry exploding ex-member's posts after you lock that person out.
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    The deletion must have been changed by the owner as he was changing things to increase security and he usually has forums set to have no deletion by members. The reason is that deleting a post or thread can disturb the flow of a conversation. And as another has said, it has happened where a person that did not get their way will start at the first post and delete them all before blowing up and being banned or just leaving.

    The only update to this is that the original only mods and admins can delete is returned and I do not know which previous admin may have allowed the delete by member for their own posts. The forum was security audited and the deletion was found no set to the setting the owner thought it was set at.

    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).

    These are the reason and the settings.
    Angie, Thank you very much for tracking this stuff down. This editing rule, old or new, has caught many of us by surprise. Nevertheless your effort to provide some clarity is appreciated as always.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    As to editing your own posts. It is good for 28 days (40400 minutes if I remember correctly). That is longer than other forums have and it explains the mid February date we are seeing on your editing experiments. This settings was not changed by the owner during the audit, so it has been this way for some time. Usually it would be set by 1440 minutes (1 day).
    As mentioned before, it has been possible on TRF to edit old posts for a very long time.

    FWIW - I tested out in a couple of forums I have been in for awhile, whether I can edit old posts on those forums.

    RCGroups, first post September 2010.

    Can still edit the first post

    KSP forums (Kerbal Space Program) - First post April 2013 after their forum crashed and most previous posts were lost due to terrible site back-up files (webmaster fired). Every post I made before then was lost.

    Can still edit the first post after KSP forum got back online in April 2013.

    The Rocketry Forum. First post 2004. Used to be able to edit all old posts until some point recently (of course not the TRF archive but that is a frozen in time archive of mostly resurrected files after a huge website crash in late 2008).
    Last edited by georgegassaway; 23rd March 2017 at 04:15 PM.

    Contest flying, Sport flying, it's all good.....
    2016 Bike Mileage total: 1843 miles. 5 Miles a day for the year!

  15. #45
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    xxx
    Last edited by mpitfield; Today at 03:04 AM.

  16. #46
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    Guys, I do appreciate you giving me information about the editing feature and the time and why it is best for you to have it longer. If anyone would like to add more information or put your nickle worth in (2 cents is so out of date), I'd appreciate it. No promises but the better I understand the better I can talk with the owner/tech.

    So, do any others want to chime in?

  17. #47
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    At a minimum, there are several places that are maintained as "bulletin boards" of various things (such as a vendor list). Often, the volunteers that maintain these areas are not mods. The change will effectively lock them out. Of course, we could make them mods, but for security, that probably isn't a great plan either.
    Blessings,

    John
    NAR#87984
    L1 - Airfest - September 6, 2015

    It can't be my second childhood, I haven't finished my first one yet.

    "If I were giving a young man advice as to how he might succeed in life, I would say to him, Pick out a good father and mother, and begin life in Ohio." - Wilbur Wright, January 10, 1910

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  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    Guys, I do appreciate you giving me information about the editing feature and the time and why it is best for you to have it longer. If anyone would like to add more information or put your nickle worth in (2 cents is so out of date), I'd appreciate it. No promises but the better I understand the better I can talk with the owner/tech.

    So, do any others want to chime in?
    The one more nickel I'll throw in is just to echo what others have said. There are *many* occasions when it is useful to edit older posts, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I understand what security benefits are to be had by limiting editing in this way. Did it ever cause a problem in the past? I'm still struggling to understand the motivation for the change.
    My photo albums: fleet pics and OR Models

  19. #49
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    This little "catastrophe" has me thinking somewhat philosophically about Internet forums in general, forum threads, cost of bandwidth, cost of storage, the Nazca Lines, crop circles ...


    Full disclosure: I don't pay for access to this place.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil_w View Post
    The one more nickel I'll throw in is just to echo what others have said. There are *many* occasions when it is useful to edit older posts, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I understand what security benefits are to be had by limiting editing in this way. Did it ever cause a problem in the past? I'm still struggling to understand the motivation for the change.
    I can't speak to any of the security issues, but since I became a mod, there have been a couple of folks who wanted to "take their ball and go home" who, post-by-post, went through their entire history and erased everything they had ever written. It left a few threads that are difficult to read because they look a bit like Swiss cheese.
    Blessings,

    John
    NAR#87984
    L1 - Airfest - September 6, 2015

    It can't be my second childhood, I haven't finished my first one yet.

    "If I were giving a young man advice as to how he might succeed in life, I would say to him, Pick out a good father and mother, and begin life in Ohio." - Wilbur Wright, January 10, 1910

    _____________________________________

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  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peartree View Post
    I can't speak to any of the security issues, but since I became a mod, there have been a couple of folks who wanted to "take their ball and go home" who, post-by-post, went through their entire history and erased everything they had ever written. It left a few threads that are difficult to read because they look a bit like Swiss cheese.
    While it has happened, the number of hotheads that have pulled that little stunt has been pretty low considering the number of posts that this forum generates. Locking the edit/delete feature for the .0002% of the times that occurs is a tad overkill IMHO. And if anybody is serious about finding out about what happened, there's always the option of asking another active member about what happened.

    I'd suggest a forum rule where anybody who is caught deleting or editing their posts in a rage quit situation be banned immediately, and using a backup of the forum the lost posts be restored.
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peartree View Post
    At a minimum, there are several places that are maintained as "bulletin boards" of various things (such as a vendor list). Often, the volunteers that maintain these areas are not mods. The change will effectively lock them out. Of course, we could make them mods, but for security, that probably isn't a great plan either.
    This is what I tried to say earlier. I don't know why editing would be limited but that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason. Other solutions could exist. For instance, the list updates could be posted. A mod assigned to that list would monitor for updates, and then fold the changes in. Or the non-mod list owner could keep a local copy, edit that, and then just put it in a reply to the thread. The latest would be at the bottom instead of the top.

    I don't know how many mods there are but you could always enlist one more.
    Dick Stafford
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  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peartree View Post
    I can't speak to any of the security issues, but since I became a mod, there have been a couple of folks who wanted to "take their ball and go home" who, post-by-post, went through their entire history and erased everything they had ever written. It left a few threads that are difficult to read because they look a bit like Swiss cheese.
    That would be a reason to not allow editing of old posts I guess. But that assumes there are any threads that are really that important in the big picture. I don't like swiss cheese that much but will eat it on occasion. The forum existed for years with no ability to delete but infinite ability to edit. Some people bitched about that back then, but TRF persisted despite mass "deletions" due to manic editing.
    Dick Stafford
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  24. #54
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    Perhaps a deletes per day limit? Unless doing a mass deletion most don't delete many posts in brief periods if time.

  25. #55
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    I will say that is I were managing a ton of forums, I'd want them to operate pretty much the same so the admins and techies don't have to keep track of a bunch of unique configurations. I am curious about the 'why' behind the change. Not that anyone owes me an answer.
    Dick Stafford
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  26. #56
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    Thank you for your input. I'll try to summarize these issues to owner/tech and see what happens. I may not have an answer until Monday as most of us in the background are not on as much during the weekend. But, we do still pop in and out to help with issues as they arise.

  27. #57
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    I went and tried to edit a couple of things from for sale to sold and had to quote my first post and add the changes there..

    info only

    Tony


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