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  1. #1
    Join Date
    21st January 2009
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    Massachusetts
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    998

    Boris Katan flights 2017 -> Clusters + 3D Printing Fun <-

    For 2017 will post all my projects and flights in one annual thread as in previous years.
    This makes is easier for me to post, and easier to follow for anyone who subscribes.
    Also avoids having threads for some projects and not others.

    My Winter goal is to prep for LDRS April 6-9.
    Looking forward to flying at MDRA for the first time.

    Planning three pairs of flights: speed, spinning and clustered+staged.

    Speed:
    Carbon Weasel on CTI J530 Imax. 38mm minimum diameter 16oz rocket, should do Mach 2+
    Carbon fiber body tube with LOC Weasel NC and fins. Previously flown 3 times Mach 1.5+

    SkyHook 2 on CTI K1440 White Thunder. 54mm minimum diameter / flying case. Build in progress.
    Goal is for the rocket to add <1.5lbs to the 4.1lb motor and break Mach 2.5. Bonus points for breaking 2000mph

    Spin - a couple seasoned fliers:
    Turbine Rocket Saucer on 6x D11-P
    Spinning Saucer of the Apocalypse on 8x D11-P + 2x G - maybe skids??

    Clustered and staged:
    Nitro Fireball 7ft x 4in first stage on a cluster of 7x 29mm + 16x 24mm.
    Second stage 6x smaller rockets FlisKits ShadowLords on D12 engines
    Has flown in a modified version of this setup 4x previously.

    HellBoy 2 staged 70 motor flight. Repeat of a flight done successfully in 2012.
    stage 1: 51x C11 to stage 2: 19x D11-P
    pic 1: stage 1 motor pack bonded with fast epoxy
    pic 2: motor pack and inter-stage bits

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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  2. #2
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    21st January 2009
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    Massachusetts
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    998
    Stage 2 of the Nitro FireBall:

    pic 1 and 2: 6x cool FlisKits ShadowLord kits

    pic3 and 4: ShadowLords, a (black) fin guide I designed and 3D printed, plus the assembled HellBoy stage 1 (minus fins)

    pic 5: hardened balsa NCs and fins with slow epoxy thinned with alcohol

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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    21st January 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    998
    For the SkyHook 2 54mm speed project:

    pic 1: 3D printed several test rings, varying size 0.1mm to get ideal fit for NC shoulder, before printing the shoulder itself

    pic 2: using thin wall FG nose cone, cut out hole for keychain video camera mount. 3D printed NC shoulder and alt bay sled - located in NC. Chemically welded sled and shoulder with a slurry of acetone and ABS.

    pic 3: the very lovely carbon fiber over Nomex honeycomb fins. Custom made by Robert at AMW.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  4. #4
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    21st January 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    998
    Stage 1 of the Nitro FireBall staged cluster:

    pic 1: 7x 29mm starting point

    pic 2: more motor tubes. 24mm LOC cardboard tubes covered with thin fiberglass and black tinted epoxy.

    pic 3: some of those motor tubes plus 4in x 1/8in basswood

    pic 4: wrapped in more thin FG and black tinted epoxy
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    Last edited by delta22; 5th March 2017 at 04:24 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  5. #5
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    21st January 2009
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    Massachusetts
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    998
    Had to repair / upgrade my SeeMeCNC RostockMax 3D printer over the winter.

    Tried to tighten the plastic travelers that are moved up and down the rail by the toothed belt. These in turn move the upper part of the arms that move the print head.

    Found that after a year of use, there were many fractures in the plastic. Replaced them with the very nice (pictured) aluminum traveler and pulley assemblies from TrickLaser.
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    Last edited by delta22; 5th March 2017 at 04:25 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  6. #6
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    21st January 2017
    Location
    Wichita KS
    Posts
    40
    Uh, WOW. Guess I'll stay tuned....

  7. #7
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    14th July 2015
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    Randolph, NJ
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    Now I'm even more bummed I can't make it to LDRS. Oh well, I'll just look forward to the reports in this thread....
    Recently completed: upscale Quinstar and APRO Lander II; in progress: Starship Avalon; next up: Accur8-skinned Trajector and Ragnarok Orbital Interceptor
    My photo albums: fleet pics and OR Models

  8. #8
    Join Date
    6th March 2010
    Location
    Amesbury, MA
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    1,918
    There's a man who's made good use of his winter.
    Boris, save something for the home fields or just fly more and more.
    KENN BLADE
    NAR #80160
    CMASS President
    MMMSC Ambassador-at-Large
    NAR S&T Member

  9. #9
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
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    2,629
    opcorn:

  10. #10
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    18th January 2009
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    Maryland
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    Darned good start to your 2017 thread!
    Dick Stafford
    The member formerly known as the Pointy-Haired Moderator.
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  11. #11
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    22nd August 2015
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    Rhode Island
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    942
    How do you invite the sustainer for these huge cluster 2-stage rockets? Is there going to be a mid-flight BP flashpan?
    NAR #100940, RIMRA & CMASS
    L1 - 4/17/16, Tyrannosaur (by Binder Design), Loki H144
    Dual Deploy - 11/12/16, Tyrannosaur + Eggtimer TRS, Loki I405

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDB View Post
    How do you invite the sustainer for these huge cluster 2-stage rockets? Is there going to be a mid-flight BP flashpan?
    For the HellBoy two-stage flight, there will be a flashpan for each stage.
    First stage triggered by LCO, second stage fired one second later by the same Raven that triggers the ejection charges.
    Second stage will only fire at one second if first stage launch has achieved a minimum level of accelerometer calculated speed, assuring that there will be no second stage ignition if the first stage fails to get the rocket off to a fast start.

    For the Nitro FireBall, there will be a flashpan for the central cluster of first-stage BP motors only.
    The 6x small second stage rockets each are powered by one D12. These will be fired by C11-0 first stage motors, located in the black tubes pictured above in the fin ring. Those first stage C11's will each have their own igniter, as they are 4+ inches away from any other first stage motors.

    This is different from previous Nitro FireBall flights, which had used electronic ignition for the 6x second stage rockets. This proved to be unreliable and a huge PITA to set up.

    Pictures of previous flights on the website in my signature and past TRF threads.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  13. #13
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    18th January 2009
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    Maryland
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    If there is any way to guesstimate which day the Hellboy will go up please let us know. I'm going visit LDRS for one day and would like to see it if possible. I know it's hard to plan firmly and on-site plans can change (heck I might not be able to make it that day). But any guess is better than none. TIA!
    Dick Stafford
    The member formerly known as the Pointy-Haired Moderator.
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstaff3 View Post
    If there is any way to guesstimate which day the Hellboy will go up please let us know. I'm going visit LDRS for one day and would like to see it if possible. I know it's hard to plan firmly and on-site plans can change (heck I might not be able to make it that day). But any guess is better than none. TIA!
    Tentatively planning speed flights for Thursday, spinners for Friday, and clusters for Saturday.
    Very dependent on weather.

    Traveling home Sunday. That one is more firm, as I am dependent on working Monday
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  15. #15
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    18th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    Tentatively planning speed flights for Thursday, spinners for Friday, and clusters for Saturday.
    Very dependent on weather.

    Traveling home Sunday. That one is more firm, as I am dependent on working Monday
    Thanks, Saturday is likely the day I will go over to watch. Weather is a big wild card.
    Dick Stafford
    The member formerly known as the Pointy-Haired Moderator.
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  16. #16
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
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    652
    I thought my cluster was big, gotta get a good video of the midair on yours. Very cool
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  17. #17
    Join Date
    18th August 2012
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    Athol,Ma.
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    970
    Boris's cluster flights are legendary. Check out the link at the bottom of his sig. There's some awesome stuff there.
    Mike L.
    NAR #97175
    CMASS & MMMSC
    L1, LOC Cyclotron
    L2, Madcow Areobee Hi

  18. #18
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    28th June 2016
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    PA
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    Boris, this looks awesome. I got the parking spot next to you for LDRS. If you need help getting things into the air just stop on by. We'll be there Thursday-Saturday.
    TRA #10518 ---- MDRA #106

    L1, 6/25/2016: Modified MadCow Super Batray, CTI I236 BS
    L2, 9/17/2016: Modified RW Patriot, CTI J280 SS
    L3, 4/8/2017: RW Formula 200, CTI M1810 RL

    Max Altitude: 4,978', L3 Cert flight
    Max Speed: Mach ???, L3 Cert flight

  19. #19
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    Thanks all for the kind words.

    Mike and Nate, LDRS will be a whole lot of fun, looking forward to being neighbors.

    Nate, I'll gladly accept any available help setting up my cluster flights, tentatively planned for Saturday.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  20. #20
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    21st January 2009
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    pic 1: Put a drop of thin slow epoxy under each capacitor on 2 new Ravens. Helps them hold up to high Gs. The Carbon Weasel hit a max of 84 Gs on an I 540 in a previous flight.

    pic 2: Started adding more 24mm motor tubes to the central cluster, because - hey more motors

    pic 3: Sanded and then coated with thinned and pigmented epoxy to (fire and surface) harden the ring fin
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  21. #21
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    21st January 2009
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    pic 1: Cut 3 small pieces of 1oz glass to make the NC to camera transition.
    Started by applying the smallest so each piece covered the edges of the piece below it.
    pic 2 and 3: After this cured, sanded and brushed over a thin layer of epoxy to smooth.
    Thinwall FG nosecone started at 4.75oz, with camera glassed in now weighs 5.25oz.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  22. #22
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    21st January 2009
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    pic 1: Following Robert at AMW's recommendation, using Cotronics high heat epoxy for bonds directly to motor case.
    Their room temp cure 4461 epoxy will stand up to 500F, CTI motor cases designed not to exceed 300F externally.
    Pricey at just over $100 a pint, but its heat resistance is remarkable.

    To prep the case, sanded the hard anodized surface aggressively with 80 grit sandpaper. Literally was barely able to scratch the surface. Then wiped with alcohol.
    Did a test with a 1 inch wrap of FG. Had to cut and sand every bit off, never did any of the FG lift off the hard surface of the case.

    pic 2: Applied a double layer wrap of 1oz FG to the case where the fins will be attached to provide a good underlayment for the fin fillets and tip-to-tip build up.

    Pic 3 and 4: Sanded the edges of the carbon fiber over Nomex honeycomb fins.
    Made to order by AMW. As strong as steel and light as Basswood. Amazing stuff.

    <shameless plugs>
    >> Order some custom work from AMW today!
    You will be delighted with the results.

    >> Top Flight Recovery parachutes and recovery accessories are the best.
    Order some today!
    </shameless plugs>
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  23. #23
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    21st January 2009
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    Been adding a pair of additional motors tubes each day.
    Got the last pair on today, for a total of 10 more 24mm motor tubes.
    Not adding tubes to the last inter-fin gap as that is where the rail buttons are located.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  24. #24
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    6th March 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    pic 1: Cut 3 small pieces of 1oz glass to make the NC to camera transition.
    Started by applying the smallest so each piece covered the edges of the piece below it.
    pic 2 and 3: After this cured, sanded and brushed over a thin layer of epoxy to smooth.
    Thinwall FG nosecone started at 4.75oz, with camera glassed in now weighs 5.25oz.
    Boris,
    Have you mounted a camera that far forward before or seen one like that? It seems that, in that position, it could impact the aerodynamics of the bird more than one mounted further down the body tube.
    Just wondering.
    Kenn

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KennB View Post
    Boris,
    Have you mounted a camera that far forward before or seen one like that? It seems that, in that position, it could impact the aerodynamics of the bird more than one mounted further down the body tube.
    Just wondering.
    Kenn
    Kenn,
    I really like downward facing on-board video. The best I can do with the 808 camera without doing surgery on it, is to recess and taper its placement into the body of the rocket.

    As far as the location of the camera in/on the rocket, options are very limited. If the camera was any further back in the rocket it would impinge on the chute compartment or the motor, or it would have to be entirely surface mounted. To keep weight very low, the camera, altimeter and tracker are all located in the NC, there is no separate alt bay.

    The bottom of the camera is resting against the bulkhead at the top of the chute compartment. This is the same setup as the 38mm MD Carbon Weasel, which has proven to be a stable flier, and makes for some fun videos of crazy fast flights
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  26. #26
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    6th March 2010
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    Cool. I can't wait to see the results.

  27. #27
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    21st January 2009
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    pic 1: Designed and 3D printed a couple custom fin alignment guides. Marked out fin locations and tacked fins in place with CA.

    pic 2: Taped out fillet borders. Poured fillets of more Cotronix 4461 high heat epoxy, this time thickened with colloidal silica.

    pic 3: Formed fillets using spent 13mm motor case

    pic 4: Mounted altimeter - Featherweight Raven in a Power Perch, and tracker (under yellow masking tape). NC and NC shoulder/alt sled unit shown side by side as they will fit into each other.

    Total weight of all parts in pic 4: thin wall fiberglass NC with glassed in camera + 3D printed ABS NC shoulder/alt sled with altimeter and tracker = 8.2oz
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  28. #28
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    28th June 2016
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    PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    pic 1: Designed and 3D printed a couple custom fin alignment guides. Marked out fin locations and tacked fins in place with CA.

    pic 2: Taped out fillet borders. Poured fillets of more Cotronix 4461 high heat epoxy, this time thickened with colloidal silica.

    pic 3: Formed fillets using spent 13mm motor case

    pic 4: Mounted altimeter - Featherweight Raven in a Power Perch, and tracker (under yellow masking tape). NC and NC shoulder/alt sled unit shown side by side as they will fit into each other.

    Total weight of all parts in pic 4: thin wall fiberglass NC with glassed in camera + 3D printed ABS NC shoulder/alt sled with altimeter and tracker = 8.2oz
    Very nice job. What are you expecting altitude and velocity wise?
    TRA #10518 ---- MDRA #106

    L1, 6/25/2016: Modified MadCow Super Batray, CTI I236 BS
    L2, 9/17/2016: Modified RW Patriot, CTI J280 SS
    L3, 4/8/2017: RW Formula 200, CTI M1810 RL

    Max Altitude: 4,978', L3 Cert flight
    Max Speed: Mach ???, L3 Cert flight

  29. #29
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    21st January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateLowrie View Post
    Very nice job. What are you expecting altitude and velocity wise?
    By keeping SkyHook 2 very light it will be optimized for speed and sacrifice altitude.
    Expecting 11-12Kft apogee and hoping for 2000+mph.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  30. #30
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    pic 1: Tip-to-tip 2x layers of 4oz S glass plus a 1oz veil. Was not able to get glass to close and form a tapered edge at the edges of the fins.

    pic 2: Trimmed and sanded fiberglass.
    Fin assembly weight 6.0oz (3.0oz CF+Nomex fins + 3.0oz fiberglass) and rock hard.

    pic 3: 5 inch section of thin wall fiberglass airframe overlapping top of motor tube by 1.5 inches. NC sitting on top for the pic.

    pic 4 and 5: Cut a number of FG strands from some 6oz fg cloth. Wetted them with epoxy and put them on leading edge of fins, with folded wax paper to help form tapered edge.

    Using high-heat Cotronics 4461 epoxy for all bonds to the motor case including all the fin assembly.

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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

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