E12-0s blow up

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The hobby shops here do not carry Es due to Hazmat, and I don't want to pay Hazmat charges to mail order them, plus I read these reports often enough to just say "No".

I've just acquired some Estes E/F 29mm BP motors. Makes me wonder if I'll see the same ...
Did you mean to say something other than "Es" in your first sentence? There are no Es that I know of that require hazmat shipping in the US.
 
At Holtville this weekend somebody flew a cluster of 7 E12's... with predictable results. It probably didn't make it more than 100' in the air, but it was a pretty spectacular cato... however many of the 7 failed was hard to tell from a distance, and I didn't have a chance to ask the flyer.
 
All Estes E motors have over 30 grams of propellant.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf
Hobbylinc ships Estes Es and Fs via 3rd class ground, no hazmat:

https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-f15-8-model-rocket-engines-2-29mm-pro-series-ii-rocket-motor-16553

https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-e16-8-model-rocket-engines-2-29mm-pro-series-ii-rocket-motor-1698

Also, I've seen the way that Hobby Lobby transports their Estes Es and Fs as I've seen them being added to stock coming out of the transport boxes used by Hobby Lobby from their distribution centers. Definitely not marked or handled as hazmat, just thrown in with a lot of other stuff ordered for stocking and not even all rocket stuff in the same box, so there is some confusion about this situation somewhere.

Just checked a very trustworthy source, Apogee, and they DO require hazmat for Estes Es and Fs. Looks like Hobbylinc is violating the rules and maybe Hobby Lobby, too.
 
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I don't believe hobbylinc is doing due diligence.

From the estes website, all of their bp E and F motors have this note, I would think if Estes can't do it, then others can't either, they are the manufacturer:

ATTENTION: Additional Hazardous Materials shipping and handling charge of $35.49 will be applied at checkout.

ATTENTION: Some restrictions may apply, see full product page for details.

This also applies to their F and larger composite motors but not to their E motors which are less than 30 grams of propellent, those are listed as mailing usps to physical address.

BTW some but not all composite F SU motors and some lms up through g can go usps, but some F and all G SU motors are still hazmat.
 
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From the estes website, all of their bp E and F motors have this note, I would think if Estes can't do it, then others can't either, they are the manufacturer:

ATTENTION: Additional Hazardous Materials shipping and handling charge of $35.49 will be applied at checkout.

ATTENTION: Some restrictions may apply, see full product page for details.
You beat me to it as I just came back to add that I checked Estes, too. Also, I checked on the non-hazmat APCP Fs and they are all below 30g propellant. Hobbylinc DOES follow that 30g rule with APCP motors they sell.
 
At Holtville this weekend somebody flew a cluster of 7 E12's... with predictable results. It probably didn't make it more than 100' in the air, but it was a pretty spectacular cato... however many of the 7 failed was hard to tell from a distance, and I didn't have a chance to ask the flyer.

That was mine. Three of seven catoed, both E12-0 and E12-8. The date codes were from 2011 and 2012, I'll check the exact codes tonight.
 
That was mine. Three of seven catoed, both E12-0 and E12-8. The date codes were from 2011 and 2012, I'll check the exact codes tonight.

E12-0 A 11 15 11
E12-8 A 04 02 12

Were any of the bad lots officially recalled?
 
AFAIK, there are no recalls, hence these anecdotal threads where we share experiences.

The 11 15 11 is known risky.

The other lot was just a couple posts earlier noted as successfully flown.

Since we have a high under reporting of good E flights, we can't really judge the failure rates. Estes might know rate vs lot size - but they aren't forthcoming.
 
Hobbylinc is in violation.


Hobby Lobby ships from a local warehouse to the stores and can do so in a normal box in their own truck. Just like you can buy them at the store and drive them home in your car or drive them to a launch in your car.

Estes ships to the Hobby Lobby warehouse legally, using the proper boxes, labels and HAZMAT fees/carriers.

Dr. Bob K can fill in the specific legal shipping terminology and explain interstate and common carrier.




Hobbylinc ships Estes Es and Fs via 3rd class ground, no hazmat:

https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-f15-8-model-rocket-engines-2-29mm-pro-series-ii-rocket-motor-16553

https://www.hobbylinc.com/estes-e16-8-model-rocket-engines-2-29mm-pro-series-ii-rocket-motor-1698

Also, I've seen the way that Hobby Lobby transports their Estes Es and Fs as I've seen them being added to stock coming out of the transport boxes used by Hobby Lobby from their distribution centers. Definitely not marked or handled as hazmat, just thrown in with a lot of other stuff ordered for stocking and not even all rocket stuff in the same box, so there is some confusion about this situation somewhere.

Just checked a very trustworthy source, Apogee, and they DO require hazmat for Estes Es and Fs. Looks like Hobbylinc is violating the rules and maybe Hobby Lobby, too.
 
E12-0 A 11 15 11
E12-8 A 04 02 12

Were any of the bad lots officially recalled?
I had a number of 11-15-11 fail, but none from 2012. They've been reliable for me since then, though I've been reluctant to use them in my 7x24mm cluster Hydra VII upscale.
 
Hobbylinc is in violation.

Hobby Lobby ships from a local warehouse to the stores and can do so in a normal box in their own truck. Just like you can buy them at the store and drive them home in your car or drive them to a launch in your car.

Estes ships to the Hobby Lobby warehouse legally, using the proper boxes, labels and HAZMAT fees/carriers.

Dr. Bob K can fill in the specific legal shipping terminology and explain interstate and common carrier.
Yeah, the only places I've ever bought Estes Es and Fs have been from Hobby Lobby and from Hobbylinc for the ones Hobby Lobby doesn't carry, so I was surprised by the hazmat qualification. Hobbylinc is now out of the picture on those because I won't order if I'm aware of violations.

However, even though I believe what you say on the Hobby Lobby warehouse to store and self transport issue which are hazmat documentation and marking waivered, since hazmat and non-hazmat rocket motors are all shipped via ground transport by default, the hazmat motors are no less of a hazard (an overblown "hazard" IMO) to me, the general public, and to first responders while being carried in my vehicle or in Hobby Lobby's trucks than they are when carried by a commercial carrier so long as they are transported as they are via ground transport. Actually, with self-transport they are more of a hazard since they are not marked as hazmat and I might not be conscious to warn first responders.

The only requirement should be that they are properly marked as a hazard in the same manner as "Toy Propellant Device" which I think should actually be marked as "Model Rocket Motor" in order to give everyone including first responders a better a better idea of the projectile hazard in the event of a fire. The extra and far too high fee for tracking is ridiculous. Tracking is a good idea, but the fee is ridiculous. I think it's just price gouging just like baggage fees on aircraft.

But the core problem deals which which orifice they pulled that tiny 30g figure out of without even considering the TYPE of propellant and its unique hazard? The stupidity is shown to be even greater with the ridiculous "igniter" issue.

Every reg should have proof of a problem to be fixed before being allowed especially when dealing with a supposed "hazard" presented by items with long, pristine safety records.

Just a few of my beefs on over-regulation.

Anyway, I sure am glad they got these regs in place considering all of the horrendous accidents that have occurred due to violations by Hobbylinc and the shipping of how many millions of those deadly "igniters" of previous formulations over many decades. As Bannon as said, they are working toward the deconstruction of the vast, (unelected) administrative state. I wish them the best of luck, but I think that, unfortunately, "the swamp" is far too deep and armored to make much of an impact on.
 
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Yeah, the only places I've ever bought Estes Es and Fs have been from Hobby Lobby and from Hobbylinc for the ones Hobby Lobby doesn't carry, so I was surprised by the hazmat qualification. Hobbylinc is now out of the picture on those because I won't order if I'm aware of violations.

However, even though I believe what you say on the Hobby Lobby warehouse to store and self transport issue which are hazmat documentation and marking waivered, since hazmat and non-hazmat rocket motors are all shipped via ground transport by default, the hazmat motors are no less of a hazard (an overblown "hazard" IMO) to me, the general public, and to first responders while being carried in my vehicle or in Hobby Lobby's trucks than they are when carried by a commercial carrier so long as they are transported as they are via ground transport. Actually, with self-transport they are more of a hazard since they are not marked as hazmat and I might not be conscious to warn first responders.

The only requirement should be that they are properly marked as a hazard in the same manner as "Toy Propellant Device" which I think should actually be marked as "Model Rocket Motor" in order to give everyone including first responders a better a better idea of the projectile hazard in the event of a fire. The extra and far too high fee for tracking paperwork is ridiculous. And what orifice did they pull that 30g figure out of without even considering the TYPE of propellant and its unique hazard? The stupidity is shown to be even greater with the ridiculous "igniter" issue.

Every reg should have proof of a problem to be fixed before being allowed especially when dealing with a supposed "hazard" presented by items with long, pristine safety records.

Just a few of my beefs on over-regulation.

Anyway, I sure am glad they got these regs in place considering all of the horrendous accidents that have occurred due to violations by Hobbylinc and the shipping of how many millions of those deadly "igniters" of previous formulations over many decades. As Bannon as said, they are working toward the deconstruction of the vast, (unelected) administrative state. I wish them the best of luck, but I think that, unfortunately, "the swamp" is far too deep and armored to make much of an impact on.

Hazardous materials regulations and labeling were created to protect the public and to communicate that hazard to the public and emergency response personnel.
 
Hazardous materials regulations and labeling were created to protect the public and to communicate that hazard to the public and emergency response personnel.
Which is exactly what I said. I also asked why they then don't have to be marked when I'm carrying them cross country to a launch or when Hobby Lobby is transporting them from their warehouse to a store. Doesn't wash. If they're dangerous in one ground transport mode, they're dangerous in all. Also, where'd the 30g limit come from? Someone's orifice?
 
Which is exactly what I said. I also asked why they then don't have to be marked when I'm carrying them cross country to a launch or when Hobby Lobby is transporting them from their warehouse to a store. Doesn't wash. If they're dangerous in one ground transport mode, they're dangerous in all.

For the same reason professionals are allowed to transport hazmats as "materials of trade", the quantities are not expected to be at dangerous levels. The MoT exemption allows somthing like 200kg to be transport not in commerce without placarding. Commercial carriers routinely carry far more quantity than a person or even a company is likely to use.
Explosives 1.4 is a Table 2 hazardous material and as such does not require placarding ( hazard communication) below 1001 lbs.
 
For the same reason professionals are allowed to transport hazmats as "materials of trade", the quantities are not expected to be at dangerous levels. The MoT exemption allows somthing like 200kg to be transport not in commerce without placarding. Commercial carriers routinely carry far more quantity than a person or even a company is likely to use.
Explosives 1.4 is a Table 2 hazardous material and as such does not require placarding ( hazard communication) below 1001 lbs.
Yes, I made a long post previously griping about this issue and specifically addressed "materials of trade" and some of the far more hazardous than 30g of compressed BP hazardous items that can be shipped via the mail without hazmat tracking. Like cans of spray paint.

Once again, this makes no sense other than those items have a far larger voting constituency who simply wouldn't stand for it, which as I also pointed out was the reason that nonsensical (due to ineffectiveness or addressing a statistical non-problem) firearm regulations are prevented by the size of the NRA membership.

I'm all for safety, but I think the 30g limit is ridiculous as are the fees required when it is exceeded.
 
This is the list of date codes that I have for bad E motors. I have not seen an update in a while.

E9
09-04-12
06-28-11
06-14-01 A
A 01 12 16
A 09 15 14
A 1-12-16

E12
A 08-18-11
A 11 15 11


I rigged up a test stand and fired off the remaining E12s and they all blew up. The date code on them is 05-15-12. btw, What does CATO stand for?

Regards,
MDR
 
I rigged up a test stand and fired off the remaining E12s and they all blew up. The date code on them is 05-15-12. btw, What does CATO stand for?

Regards,
MDR

CATO stands for CAn (T)of wOrms (the T is silent.)
 
OK, so the new list is

C11
A 11 08 10
A 06 28 11

E9
09-04-12
06-28-11
06-14-01 A
A 06 28 11 1
A 01 12 16
A 09 15 14
A 1-12-16

E12
A 08-18-11
A 11 15 11 (E12-0 & others?)
A 04 02 12 (E12-8 & others?)
05-15-12
 
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