Oroville Dam Auxiliary Spillway Failure

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Atterbery...what does that have to do with anything?

I deleted my "political" posts over hurt feelings. Delete yours.
 
For what it's worth...today's rainfall has been minimal as it was yesterday. Sunny at the present time an hour and a half south of the dam.

Repair work on the emergency spillway has continued. Drones have been banned from the area as they were putting construction helicopters at risk. Some people have zero common sense.

Water level behind the dam has continued to drop and the main spillway has been releasing 100,000 cfs continuously. Release water has been clear for several days indicating the erosion of soil underneath the spillway has reached bedrock ( it's built on a mountainside).

Keeping our fingers crossed.
 
Its hard for me to even understand the stupidy here. Why did they build towns in a flooding area??? My mind set is even if you have a reservoir with a dam the engineers should think and the towns people should think "if the dam would ever break would it flood here" Even at the remote possible possibility it could flood if dam broke then do not build a town anywhere close. IDK understand. Plan for the worst hope for the best. How I see it is if no communities where in the danger zone then who cares. Erosion is apart of life. It is the engineers fault. I have an engineer friend and in his engineering class 101 they taught him to design things to fail not last forever or a long time. The idea is if it only lasts a decade or so just an example then no one is making money. If engineers could build a car that could last 50 years easy then no one would make much money.
 
There has been a settlement there for over 150 years. The dam is only 50 years old.

For years I asked the same question every time people got flooded out along the Mississippi. The short answer is that's were the jobs are.

How about something closer to your home, like places where there are tornados. Who in their right mind would want to live there?

ColumbiaNX01 said:
Its hard for me to even understand the stupidy here. Why did they build towns in a flooding area??? My mind set is even if you have a reservoir with a dam the engineers should think and the towns people should think "if the dam would ever break would it flood here" Even at the remote possible possibility it could flood if dam broke then do not build a town anywhere close. IDK understand. Plan for the worst hope for the best. How I see it is if no communities where in the danger zone then who cares. Erosion is apart of life. It is the engineers fault. I have an engineer friend and in his engineering class 101 they taught him to design things to fail not last forever or a long time. The idea is if it only lasts a decade or so just an example then no one is making money. If engineers could build a car that could last 50 years easy then no one would make much money.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisAttebery said:
There has been a settlement there for over 150 years. The dam is only 50 years old.

For years I asked the same question every time people got flooded out along the Mississippi. The short answer is that's were the jobs are.

How about something closer to your home, like places where there are tornados. Who in their right mind would want to live there?
Click to expand...

And it snows here...who would want to deal with that?
 
ChrisAttebery said:
There has been a settlement there for over 150 years. The dam is only 50 years old.

For years I asked the same question every time people got flooded out along the Mississippi. The short answer is that's were the jobs are.

How about something closer to your home, like places where there are tornados. Who in their right mind would want to live there?
Click to expand...

Your right. We live in tornado alley. But tornadoes happen all over the usa. Just more so in tornado alley. I just know that if I buy a house or build a house I make sure it is not in a flood plain, what I mean is a 100 flood or 500 year flood area. I would not live down stream from a lake and in the event it broke i would not be flooded out. If I lived near or on a lake I would live up stream.
 
Just about everywhere in CA is in some kind of flood plain. Otherwise you're in wildfire or mudslide territory.
 
ColumbiaNX01 said:
Its hard for me to even understand the stupidy here. Why did they build towns in a flooding area??? My mind set is even if you have a reservoir with a dam the engineers should think and the towns people should think "if the dam would ever break would it flood here" Even at the remote possible possibility it could flood if dam broke then do not build a town anywhere close. IDK understand. Plan for the worst hope for the best. How I see it is if no communities where in the danger zone then who cares. Erosion is apart of life. It is the engineers fault. I have an engineer friend and in his engineering class 101 they taught him to design things to fail not last forever or a long time. The idea is if it only lasts a decade or so just an example then no one is making money. If engineers could build a car that could last 50 years easy then no one would make much money.
Click to expand...

When I was an engineering student, we did not have classes on how to design things to fail as a way to make money. Maybe I just didn't get to that particular class before changing majors.

Are you saying the dam was not built to last so that people can make money? I doubt it. I think it's more likely the dam was not maintained properly as a short-sighted way to save money, much the way that a lot of our infrastructure is allowed to fall into disrepair.
 
o1d_dude said:
For what it's worth...today's rainfall has been minimal as it was yesterday. Sunny at the present time an hour and a half south of the dam.

Repair work on the emergency spillway has continued. Drones have been banned from the area as they were putting construction helicopters at risk. Some people have zero common sense.

Water level behind the dam has continued to drop and the main spillway has been releasing 100,000 cfs continuously. Release water has been clear for several days indicating the erosion of soil underneath the spillway has reached bedrock ( it's built on a mountainside).

Keeping our fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

All good news. I hereby suggest a new law that if one's drone interferes with emergency services in any way, law enforcement agencies will be permitted to track you down and connect the drone's battery leads to a tender part of your anatomy. Possibly with an amplifying transformer. Yeesh, people.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
When I was an engineering student, we did not have classes on how to design things to fail as a way to make money. Maybe I just didn't get to that particular class before changing majors.

Are you saying the dam was not built to last so that people can make money? I doubt it. I think it's more likely the dam was not maintained properly as a short-sighted way to save money, much the way that a lot of our infrastructure is allowed to fall into disrepair.
Click to expand...


yes and no. if engineers built something to last it would be built that way. they dont because if they did things would not have to fixed after a period of time. they would be out of a job. they design things to fail after a certain period of time. period. for the cost of a new vehicle it should last som much longer then they do. Why do u think automotive warranties only last 5 yrs? after that point things start to break. if they designed it to last long long time then they would trust their product more then the warranty would be longer.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
When I was an engineering student, we did not have classes on how to design things to fail as a way to make money. Maybe I just didn't get to that particular class before changing majors.

Are you saying the dam was not built to last so that people can make money? I doubt it. I think it's more likely the dam was not maintained properly as a short-sighted way to save money, much the way that a lot of our infrastructure is allowed to fall into disrepair.
Click to expand...

I'm 20 years out of engineering school, so maybe mine was old-fashioned. We certainly talked about service life, but not planned obsolescence. Primary dam structure would be planned to be permanent, although mechanical parts (gates, winches, turbines, etc.) would all have planned service lives.

I'm currently sitting on fill at the water's edge looking 200 yards offshore at a major fault which is about due for a 7 or 8 magnitude quake. If that happens while I'm at work, I'll almost certainly get taken out by soil liquefaction, tsunami, or the building falling in. Why am I here? Because that's where my job is. They're here because it's hard to dock a tug in Washington without being in a seismic zone.
 
Outflow has been reduced to 67,000 cfs this afternoon to permit clearance work to be done on the power plant outflow area at the foot of the actual dam. Now that dam is full, it's again feasible to re-activate the power plant.
 
boatgeek said:
I'm 20 years out of engineering school, so maybe mine was old-fashioned. We certainly talked about service life, but not planned obsolescence. Primary dam structure would be planned to be permanent, although mechanical parts (gates, winches, turbines, etc.) would all have planned service lives.

I'm currently sitting on fill at the water's edge looking 200 yards offshore at a major fault which is about due for a 7 or 8 magnitude quake. If that happens while I'm at work, I'll almost certainly get taken out by soil liquefaction, tsunami, or the building falling in. Why am I here? Because that's where my job is. They're here because it's hard to dock a tug in Washington without being in a seismic zone.
Click to expand...

Exactly, there is a difference between the engineering concept of service life and the marketing concept of planned obsolescence.
 
ColumbiaNX01 said:
Why do u think automotive warranties only last 5 yrs?
Click to expand...

So that you have the option to purchase more warranty for extra cash.

Why do you think rocketpoxy has a shelf life of 18 months compared to over 10 years for Bob Smith? It's obviously since rocketpoxy wants you to use it up quick and get more so they make it deteriorate faster... engineering 101... (It's actually because of the fillers)
 
ColumbiaNX01 said:
yes and no. if engineers built something to last it would be built that way. they dont because if they did things would not have to fixed after a period of time. they would be out of a job. they design things to fail after a certain period of time. period. for the cost of a new vehicle it should last som much longer then they do. Why do u think automotive warranties only last 5 yrs? after that point things start to break. if they designed it to last long long time then they would trust their product more then the warranty would be longer.
Click to expand...

We balance requirements versus cost, not with an intent to fail but a compromise between what's affordable and what's ideal. Nobody ever can afford perfect, but I've never had anyone specify a maximum life.
We do consider how something might fall when it does however.
 
Last edited:
Incongruent said:
Food companies do it all the time.
Click to expand...

That's an acknowledgment of how long something may retain its taste or for ensuring safety, not a must spoil date. Same for medications, medical equipment, etc. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/drug-expiration-dates-do-they-mean-anything

In fact many things that are past their optimal use life are sent elsewhere rather than being destroyed.
The only exception I know of is items intended to decompose when placed in a landfill.
We really try to make things last as long as possible given a budget or price point. We know that they won't last forever though so that becomes a constraint for the user, such as a "best before" date.
Sorry to be outspoken about this. Here are other examples of planned obsolescence, which I don't dispute.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/planned-obsolescence-460210?
 
Last edited:
Steve Shannon said:
That's an acknowledgment of how long something may retain its taste or for ensuring safety, not a must spoil date. Same for medications, medical equipment, etc. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/drug-expiration-dates-do-they-mean-anything

In fact many things that are past their optimal use life are sent elsewhere rather than being destroyed.
The only exception I know of is items intended to decompose when placed in a landfill.
We really try to make things last as long as possible given a budget or price point. We know that they won't last forever though so that becomes a constraint for the user, such as a "best before" date.
Sorry to be outspoken about this. Here are other examples of planned obsolescence, which I don't dispute.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/planned-obsolescence-460210?
Click to expand...

Very interesting, thanks.
 
WOW- The sad part is , I read it all- :facepalm:
Fortunately there was a lot of deleted goodies I didnt have to wade through :yawn:
 
ColumbiaNX01 said:
Its hard for me to even understand the stupidy here. Why did they build towns in a flooding area??? My mind set is even if you have a reservoir with a dam the engineers should think and the towns people should think "if the dam would ever break would it flood here" Even at the remote possible possibility it could flood if dam broke then do not build a town anywhere close. IDK understand. Plan for the worst hope for the best. How I see it is if no communities where in the danger zone then who cares. Erosion is apart of life. It is the engineers fault. I have an engineer friend and in his engineering class 101 they taught him to design things to fail not last forever or a long time. The idea is if it only lasts a decade or so just an example then no one is making money. If engineers could build a car that could last 50 years easy then no one would make much money.
Click to expand...

Actually, the location makes perfect sense.

The colossal mismanagement of the dams maintenance does not.

I hope that wasn't too political.

Water supplies are often stored well above the heads of residents either on towers or on hillsides - which I assume is the main purpose of this reservoir; a water supply. Elevating the water at "x" feet above the users creates predictable and usable pressures throughout the system and makes distribution limited only by the friction loss from the piping itself. All this talk about the dam lifespan is a little silly. Provided the resources are available there is no reason in the world a feature like this cannot be maintained for many lifetimes. Sure the mechanicals will have to be replaced regularly but the earthen part - so long as its monitored and maintained - should last almost forever.

Sure, in this case there are tremendous risks involved having such large volumes of water perched so high above a large population center. Obviously, there is tremendous risk vs. reward here. No matter where we live in this country we face a lot of risk vs. reward all the time. Every time you get on the roadway and drive over a bridge you are relying your life on the latest inspection done by a certified engineer that was done at some point during the last two years. You're also relying on the safety of the utilities being delivered RIGHT INTO YOUR HOUSE. Several years ago, my parents house almost burned to the ground due to the negligence on the part of the power company. Unmaintained sewers cause sinkholes. Neglected water mains can not only cause property damage but also make people very ill. That's why I get my dander up a little when I see infrastructure not being maintained because someone has deemed it not needed or the money unavailable. Inexcusable either way.

This isn't political.

People could have died.

We desperately need to pay better attention to all the infrastructure all around us and Oroville dam situation is a perfect example. I don't want to see anymore innocent people like hball55 evacuated - ever.
 
I have seen items that are designed to fail once a certain limit has been reached, electrical fuzes are one such. trailer brakes (surge brakes) have a cable to active the 'break-away' system, they have a link designed to fail once the emergency system is activated.
Rex
 
DAllen said:
Actually, the location makes perfect sense.

The colossal mismanagement of the dams maintenance does not.

I hope that wasn't too political.

Water supplies are often stored well above the heads of residents either on towers or on hillsides - which I assume is the main purpose of this reservoir; a water supply. Elevating the water at "x" feet above the users creates predictable and usable pressures throughout the system and makes distribution limited only by the friction loss from the piping itself. All this talk about the dam lifespan is a little silly. Provided the resources are available there is no reason in the world a feature like this cannot be maintained for many lifetimes. Sure the mechanicals will have to be replaced regularly but the earthen part - so long as its monitored and maintained - should last almost forever.

Sure, in this case there are tremendous risks involved having such large volumes of water perched so high above a large population center. Obviously, there is tremendous risk vs. reward here. No matter where we live in this country we face a lot of risk vs. reward all the time. Every time you get on the roadway and drive over a bridge you are relying your life on the latest inspection done by a certified engineer that was done at some point during the last two years. You're also relying on the safety of the utilities being delivered RIGHT INTO YOUR HOUSE. Several years ago, my parents house almost burned to the ground due to the negligence on the part of the power company. Unmaintained sewers cause sinkholes. Neglected water mains can not only cause property damage but also make people very ill. That's why I get my dander up a little when I see infrastructure not being maintained because someone has deemed it not needed or the money unavailable. Inexcusable either way.

This isn't political.

People could have died.

We desperately need to pay better attention to all the infrastructure all around us and Oroville dam situation is a perfect example. I don't want to see anymore innocent people like hball55 evacuated - ever.
Click to expand...



Well duh! That is how water pressure works. The water supply is higher then where it needs to go. What I am saying is the population does not need to be in direct direction under the dam. community could be off set a ways and still have good water pressure and still not get flooded if the unthinkable happens.

Well I am not and engineer because if I was things would be different. lol
 
ColumbiaNX01 said:
Well duh! That is how water pressure works. The water supply is higher then where it needs to go. What I am saying is the population does not need to be in direct direction under the dam. community could be off set a ways and still have good water pressure and still not get flooded if the unthinkable happens.

Well I am not and engineer because if I was things would be different. lol
Click to expand...

You can't set the community away from the dam, the community was there first.
 

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