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  1. #1
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    propellant colors and effects

    Several people have asked about searching for motors by color, so I was thinking of how to categorize the various propellants by color and effect. Please help fill out this table. Also, if you think of a better method of organization, please suggest it.

    Manufacturer Propellant Color Effect
    AeroTech Blackjack smoke
    AeroTech Blue Thunder blue
    AeroTech Classic
    AeroTech Dark Matter smoke
    AeroTech Fast Blackjack smoke
    AeroTech Metalstorm sparks
    AeroTech Mojave Green green
    AeroTech Propellant X
    AeroTech Redline red
    AeroTech Super Thunder
    AeroTech Warp-9
    AeroTech White Lightning
    AeroTech White Thunder
    AMW Black Bear
    AMW Blue Baboon blue
    AMW Green Gorilla green
    AMW Red Rhino red
    AMW Scalded Tiger
    AMW Skidmark sparks
    AMW Super Tiger
    AMW Tamed Tiger
    AMW White Wolf
    AMW Wild Wolf
    Cesaroni Blue Streak blue
    Cesaroni C-Star
    Cesaroni C-Star (FAST)
    Cesaroni C-Star (SLOW)
    Cesaroni Classic
    Cesaroni Green3 green
    Cesaroni Imax
    Cesaroni Mellow
    Cesaroni Pink pink
    Cesaroni Red Lightning red
    Cesaroni Skidmark sparks
    Cesaroni Smoky Sam smoke
    Cesaroni Vmax
    Cesaroni White
    Cesaroni White Thunder
    Gorilla Black Lightning
    Gorilla Blue Typhoon blue
    Gorilla Green Tornado green
    Gorilla Red Twister red
    Gorilla White Cloud
    Loki Loki Blue blue
    Loki Loki Cocktail
    Loki Loki Ice
    Loki Loki Red red
    Loki Loki White
    Loki Spitfire sparks

    AERO-PAC, ROC, LUNAR (TRA & NAR)
    jcrocket.com thrustcurve.org

  2. #2
    Join Date
    13th August 2014
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    805
    It would be helpful if this could be a multiple select so that I could for example compare skidmarks to dark matters to spitfires.

    -Brian Schwartz
    LiquidFyre Rocketry
    https://www.LiquidFyre-Rocketry.com
    TRA #15327 L2



    If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
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    Some motors have more than one color or effect, so it may be useful to be able to attribute more than one characteristic.

    For instance, Loki Ice Blue could show up under both blue and white since it has grains of each, Cocktail similarly. Some of the sparky loads are also smokey loads, etc.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    21st April 2010
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    dark matter(dm) black smoke w/ sparks, metal storm(ms) white flame white smoke w/ sparks. black jack(J) & blackmax(FJ) black smoke (no visible flame). didn't know that AT had a 'classic', had thought that was CTI(could be mistaken).
    Rex
    L2-competitor 3, AT J350W, 8/27/2016, Bong, 2557'
    my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0gB...?feature=watch

  5. #5
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    A picture is worth a thousand words!
    _______________________
    Jeff - NAR #76531 -L2

  6. #6
    Join Date
    13th June 2014
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    Cocoa Beach, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words!
    AT Dark Matter
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Tim
    L3 NAR 98225

  7. #7
    Join Date
    1st September 2010
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    Tucson, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words!
    Agreed! CTI motors, especially, since they aren't very well documented on their website. Having some consistent photos (like in a test stand) would be ideal, I think!
    NAR 96681
    L1 - May 29, 2014 LOC Norad ProMax, H120
    L2 - Feb 21, 2015 Fiberglassed Madcow Frenzy, J280

  8. #8
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex R View Post
    dark matter(dm) black smoke w/ sparks, metal storm(ms) white flame white smoke w/ sparks. black jack(J) & blackmax(FJ) black smoke (no visible flame). didn't know that AT had a 'classic', had thought that was CTI(could be mistaken).
    Rex
    It's a new release of an old propellant. Available currently is a K400 classic DMS motor.
    Christopher Short
    TRA #10247 L3 TAP
    NAR #83000 L3CC
    Prefect #38
    Chris' Rocket Supplies, LLC
    www.csrocketry.com
    sales@csrocketry.com
    850-554-6531

  9. #9
    Join Date
    15th March 2016
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    322
    Loki White is white smoke, ice is white smoke and blue flame, cocktail is red and blue flame.

  10. #10
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    21st April 2010
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    new and 54mm would explain why I hadn't heard of it (of course being new to L2 I haven't really looked at 54mm stuff yet). thanks for the info,
    Rex
    L2-competitor 3, AT J350W, 8/27/2016, Bong, 2557'
    my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0gB...?feature=watch

  11. #11
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    12th April 2015
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    I'd say you ought to have a "flame color" and "smoke color" column, and maybe even a "smoke amount" column. E.g. both White Lightning and Redline produce white smoke, but WL makes a lot more - a good thing to know. I'd say "Sparks" would go in the "flame color" column since the flame / spark color of most sparkies is pretty similar - it's the color and amount of smoke that differentiates e.g. Metalstorm and Dark Matter.

    If you really wanted to get fancy, a general category of "burn rate" would also be helpful (to diffentiate e.g. Black Jack vs. Fast Jack vs. Smokey Sam, which look similar but perform quite differently).
    I aim at the stars. But sometimes I hit London.

    NAR #99868
    L1: MDRM on CTI H175, 7/26/2015 @ NARAM 57
    L2: "Flugel der Freiheit", AT J420R, 11/4/2017 @ GHS Memorial

  12. #12
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    All good suggestions, but I'm wondering how much value this all has. It seems to me that if there are only a few motors in a category, it's not worth it. I've attached a CSV file with all the distinct propellant names and the number of motors that use them. Note that this could use some cleanup (consistency of naming).

    If someone wants to take a shot at filling the a spreadsheet, I'll see what I can do.

    propellant.txt
    AERO-PAC, ROC, LUNAR (TRA & NAR)
    jcrocket.com thrustcurve.org

  13. #13
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    30th January 2016
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    If you pull out the six records marked "composite" I'll see what I can dig up.

    Same with "rapid" and "rapid propellant"

    There's a "While Lighting" which is probably a typo of "White Lightning"

    "Roadrunner propellant" should probably just be "Roadrunner"

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing for anybody who wants to help fill in missing values.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    15th October 2015
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    I have a spreadsheet that I've created to analyze the heck out of motor choices to see which ones were really worth the cost.
    I've spent months working on it and it's a lot of data, there might be a number here or there that's off but I'd say over 99% accurate(aside from pricing which fluctuates often).

    I've included my interpretation of flame & smoke color under the "Color" column. Just take a look and see if it can be useful. Feel free to modify it to fit your needs...

    m_comp3.xls
    NASA success rate since 2000: 94.7%
    SpaceX Falcon 9 success rate: 95.5%
    My personal success rate: 91.1%
    My YouTube channel

  15. #15
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    8th December 2009
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    Chris,
    Looking at your chart....

    Aerotech's DMS motors look to be a good ($ per n/S) bang for your buck...pun intened.

    Tony

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhbarr View Post
    If you pull out the six records marked "composite" I'll see what I can dig up.

    Same with "rapid" and "rapid propellant"
    The AT motors sold by Estes are labeled "composite". "Rapid" is Roadrunner (and now OOP). I've attached a spreadsheet including manufacturer names.

    Yes, there are mistakes and inconsistencies since the propellant is entered manually. If there is a column for "corrected name", I can write a script to update the values in the database.

    propellant.txt
    AERO-PAC, ROC, LUNAR (TRA & NAR)
    jcrocket.com thrustcurve.org

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabernut View Post
    I have a spreadsheet that I've created to analyze the heck out of motor choices to see which ones were really worth the cost.
    Wow, that is a lot of info. Where did you get prices? I've thought about adding cost to ThrustCurve.org, but don't have a reliable way of getting or updating prices. Also, there's the issue of retail vs actual price.
    AERO-PAC, ROC, LUNAR (TRA & NAR)
    jcrocket.com thrustcurve.org

  18. #18
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    15th October 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCoker View Post
    Wow, that is a lot of info. Where did you get prices? I've thought about adding cost to ThrustCurve.org, but don't have a reliable way of getting or updating prices. Also, there's the issue of retail vs actual price.
    I got prices from wherever I could find them: Apogee($$), buyrocketmotors.com, allrocketengines.ca, etc. Prices seemed to fluctuate quite often and vary a lot from one source to another. Waaay too much to update manually so I considered it once-a-year "ballpark" pricing. I also had another version that calculated $ per N with an amortized case cost factored in, but again, too hard to keep updated manually as case pricing also fluctuates.
    NASA success rate since 2000: 94.7%
    SpaceX Falcon 9 success rate: 95.5%
    My personal success rate: 91.1%
    My YouTube channel

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabernut View Post
    I got prices from wherever I could find them: Apogee($$), buyrocketmotors.com, allrocketengines.ca, etc. Prices seemed to fluctuate quite often and vary a lot from one source to another. Waaay too much to update manually so I considered it once-a-year "ballpark" pricing. I also had another version that calculated $ per N with an amortized case cost factored in, but again, too hard to keep updated manually as case pricing also fluctuates.
    The AeroTech thread just recently mentioned upcoming availability of a spreadsheet that I should include prices (the PDF version had them, so they should be in the Excel 'source' also), so at least for AT it should be a one-shot download from their website (for retail prices, obviously), once the link is provided. See this post.
    Will Ferry (Launches & Videos) NAR #96512 (L2) / TRA #15328 (L2) / LUNAR #2759
    L1: 9/2013 @ XPRS, GLR T-Bolt "Thunderbolt" (R.I.P.), H148R
    L2: 4/2016 @ TCC Helm, Binder Design Excel w/DD "dd2.xls", J315R
    Impulse flown (flights): 2013: 767Ns (2), 2014: 4298Ns (8), 2015: 7486Ns (16), 2016: 11693Ns (18), 2017: 11138Ns (16)

  20. #20
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    15th October 2016
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    Speaking of Aerotech, how do you order Hi-power motors/cases directly from them?
    Their webstore looks like it only has up to Mid-power stuff.
    I've seen the "Order Sheet", do they require a phone call or *shudder* fax?......
    "I'm at least 70% confident about whatever I say (90% of the time)"- college me

    NAR 101195
    Level 1: Big SAM, 9/10/16

  21. #21
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    26th October 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nytrunner View Post
    Speaking of Aerotech, how do you order Hi-power motors/cases directly from them?
    Their webstore looks like it only has up to Mid-power stuff.
    I've seen the "Order Sheet", do they require a phone call or *shudder* fax?......


    They only sell their Hobbyline motors, the ones that do not require certification to buy. You will find much cheaper prices going thru the vendor of your choice anyway.
    _______________________
    Jeff - NAR #76531 -L2

  22. #22
    Join Date
    15th October 2016
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    That makes sense, thanks.
    Just to be clear, those LMS motors aren't being produced anymore right?

    What about the Single Use Metalworks?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nytrunner View Post
    That makes sense, thanks.
    Just to be clear, those LMS motors aren't being produced anymore right?

    What about the Single Use Metalworks?
    LMS motors are still available as is the 29mm G75 Metalstorm Sparky (which is a Level 1 motor despite being <G80)

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  24. #24
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    Hmm, my mistake. I guess the last time I looked at your page and others, they were always Out of Stock.

    I see you've got some of the LMS in at the moment


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