Hyperion--TRA Level 3 Build

Exactimator said:

FWIW, at 0:29 there’s a glimpse in the top left corner of the nose cone. If you pause it, you can clearly see the shoulder and harness. So whatever caused the nose to eject (and I’m assuming the main laundry to deploy) happened at or immediately after the first event. I agree the audio isn't very good, but the apogee charge sounded like a pretty good whallop.

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Wow. Good eye! I went back and grabbed a clear view of the shoulder at a fraction over 0:29. Nice catch.

blackbrandt said:

Well, the theory I came up with is busted. Bill took apart my avionics bay, and figured out that the main and drogue on the RRC3 were reversed.

The ONE thing I did not redo on my checklist was the problem.


Oh well. Learning lesson. New thing on checklist: If ANYTHING on the checklist has to be redone, the entire checklist gets redone.

-insert lots of angry yelling-


On the bright side, the only damage is a bit of water damage to the tubes, a stuck avionics bay, and the dent in the nose cone coupler. All of which are easily fixable or replaceable.

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Oops. Reversing seems to bit a lot of people; either reversing connections or reversing the payload bay direction. It bit me once, but I got lucky and spotted it before screwing everything together. Good luck next time. You got this.

mccordmw said:

Oops. Reversing seems to bit a lot of people; either reversing connections or reversing the payload bay direction. It bit me once, but I got lucky and spotted it before screwing everything together. Good luck next time. You got this.

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What I did on this was use keyed connectors for the cwires to the euro terminal blocks for the charges. They are keyed in reverse- so for example the drogue side has male ends, and the main has female. This way when I disconnect my av bay, it will stay configured in the right way, assuming I don't pull the wires out of the terminal blocks on the altimeters. If you do this and have a keyed av bay in some way, it should hopefully eliminate some potential sources for failure.

blackbrandt said:

Thinking back, when I grabbed my receiver after I lost track of the rocket, it had already been 60+ seconds since the last mark. Furthermore, the last known point was on the launch pad. This means that I lost the signal before launch even occurred.

I'm also sad to say that my transmitter is AWOL. Keep an eye on the yard sale, I'll be selling the rest of my Egg____ stuff soon to get an RF tracking device.

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If you are going with RDF, what are you thinking of? It would be a reasonable alternative for your project to 7k'. It will take higher dollar investment in hardware so beware. Will need the tracker, Yagi antenna, receiver and outboard attenuator if the
receiver doesn't have one.

Also, make sure if you go that route you put bare, contained ematches on your deployment devices, turn everything on for a bench test and let the rocket sit upright for 30 to 60 minutes. If nothing shuts down or recycles, you should be good to go. Sometimes Rf can interfere with deployment devices. It is dependent on Rf power and frequency.
Better to be safe than sorry. Kurt

mccordmw said:

Oops. Reversing seems to bit a lot of people; either reversing connections or reversing the payload bay direction. It bit me once, but I got lucky and spotted it before screwing everything together. Good luck next time. You got this.

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When prepping ejection charges I always check continuity on both circuits by powering up the altimeter while connecting igniters and before loading any powder. First with only apogee igniter connected and then with both igniters connected. This prevents the possibility of reversing the wiring. I do this EVERY time, even if I have not messed with the altimeter wiring since the last flight.

Nathan said:

When prepping ejection charges I always check continuity on both circuits by powering up the altimeter while connecting igniters and before loading any powder. First with only apogee igniter connected and then with both igniters connected. This prevents the possibility of reversing the wiring. I do this EVERY time, even if I have not messed with the altimeter wiring since the last flight.

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I do something similar. I have terminal strips on each bulkhead. I short one connector at a time (by touching the screws with pliers or scissors), power up the altimeter, and confirm the # of beeps.

The main goal is to confirm the internal connections are still good. But the last time I found I had reconnected my leads wrong when doing some rewiring and I had swapped the main with the drogue. Saved me from a main deployment at apogee and a long walk.

Matt,

I'd recommend keeping your GPS and using both GPS and RF. GPS will walk you right to your rocket and the RF is a good backup. It's what I did on my L3 flight. I actually borrowed the tracker from Warnerr, who also offered to operate the system for me. He left it on while I went out to retrieve my rocket based on the GPS (which was working fine). He said he could tell when I got to my rocket and picked it up because he could hear the beeps change.

Wow, what a story!! Glad you got your rocket back, and good luck with your next attempt!
(Also as someone who's just done L1 and is eyeing L2, there's a lot to digest here in terms of lessons learned)

ActingLikeAKid said:

Wow, what a story!! Glad you got your rocket back, and good luck with your next attempt!
(Also as someone who's just done L1 and is eyeing L2, there's a lot to digest here in terms of lessons learned)

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Coming from my experience, and from reading over the forums, take a break at L2. There's a massive gap between L2 and L3 that you can't just half-@ss.

This is what I'll be doing, hanging in at L2, flying my L3 rocket on some big K's and small L's, and really honing down my techniques so I can be a successful L3 flier.

blackbrandt said:

Coming from my experience, and from reading over the forums, take a break at L2. There's a massive gap between L2 and L3 that you can't just half-@ss.

This is what I'll be doing, hanging in at L2, flying my L3 rocket on some big K's and small L's, and really honing down my techniques so I can be a successful L3 flier.

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This is exactly my plan. I was L1 for six months, then went to L2. I've been L2 for a year now. I'm really liking where I'm at for the moment. I have bigger kits in the build pile and I'll gradually work my way up to L's. Absolutely no plans on trying L3 anytime soon.
Matt, I'm glad you got your rocket back. I think this has been a lesson learned from everyone who's been reading this thread. Have fun and enjoy L2 and I'm sure your next L3 attempt will be flawless.

blackbrandt said:

Coming from my experience, and from reading over the forums, take a break at L2. There's a massive gap between L2 and L3 that you can't just half-@ss.

This is what I'll be doing, hanging in at L2, flying my L3 rocket on some big K's and small L's, and really honing down my techniques so I can be a successful L3 flier.

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Thanks!
And no danger of jumping the gun - I'm HOPING to get my L2 this year (gotta find some time to study FAA and fire codes); IF that goes well I may try a DD bird this winter. L3 isn't even near the horizon for me. It's "yeah if someone dropped $5000 in my lap and 20 hours a week of magic free time, maybe?"

The rocket I had planned to do L2 with (probably at the June launch with my club) fell over as I was prepping it for launch; the 3d printed transitions BOTH snapped in half.

One of the things I've learned in the short time I've been in the hobby is stoically accepting when things go sideways. Sounds like you've got that lesson down

I tried to fly a DD flight at each of the launches before my L3 ..just to stay sharp .

That and building and rebuilding different AV-Bays helped me find what fit my style and what was field friendly..now fly my Raven last instead of first because of the wiring .

They weren't all big rockets , I even started adding electronic deployment to some old paper rockets I had like a 2.6" LOC kit and a 4 inch V2 . Destroyed my daughters Mega Der Purple for a 2nd time when a delay blew out from motor chuff ... now wish that one had flown with a Quark in its nose .. even had a couple in my range box (hanging head in shame) .

Kenny

Arrows Mr.Brandt Arrows...

I put arrows on all my Av-Bays and Sleds that way all the pointy things go the same direction as the nose cone. As for wiring I mark the sled with the same labeling as the electronics since I wire the ematches directly to the altimeters, getting a L3 cert flight rocket IMO should be done on the field day of the launch, getting there nice and early. When I flew my L3 last year I arrived about the start of the launch, began assembly (after tracking down my L3CC), had a second set of eyes to go over every step, my checklist (very carefully run through multiple times at home, before the test flight, and before/during the L3 cert), all told it took nearly 3 hours to assemble the rocket, another 1/2 hour with the RSO, 30 minutes pad time and 35-45 minutes for recovery.

I color code the ends of my ebays for drogue (blue) and main (red). I did start using Ethernet wire with 4 pairs. Same 2 colors went to drogue, same 2 for main in the case of a redundant setup. These went to the terminal blocks, so I set them up the same.

I started switching to pre-wired JST connectors to the drogue cap to detach it. The main cap is not as easily removable. Having an altimeter dedicated to an ebay is a big help. If not, find a pattern you like and start using the same pattern on all rockets. Color coding, different connectors types, and plug gender (male plug on drogue, female on main) are a few options.

The problem happened when I took apart my avionics bay at the field because a switch buggered out. I disconnected my charges from the altimeter and powered it on to test it, then screwed then in backwards.

ksaves2 said:

Hmmm, A victim of a low camera angle. Always a good idea to have the camera angled out at 15 degrees or so for a better field of view. Seems to be a lesson here about expediently proceeding through the certification cycle. Nothing wrong with that per se but some time/years flying before an L3 attempt might allow the acquisition of skills to avoid the main at apogee, the low camera angle and the usage of the wrong battery in the tracker.

Bottom line though is the rocket is recovered and with some work could be re-prepped for another attempt. I doubt the same issues will crop up next time except fix that camera angle! :wink: Kurt

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Matt,
I've been following along this thread and keeping quiet. But I completely agree here. I even mentioned to the near-wife how fast you went through your certs. I take longer designing, re-engineering and building one rocket than you took to breeze through all your certs. Nothing wrong with that...but again, Kurt summed it up best. I won't mention the borrowed equipment, except to say that I wont mention it. LOL

Apparently you have been flying for a quite a while. Things will be much better when folks realize experience doesn't always equal wisdom and just because you have been doing something for years doesn't mean you have been doing it right. The rocket held together just fine and did what it thought it was supposed to do. You simply didn't take the time to double check your connections, it happens. I have nearly done the same thing. My level 1 bird Danger Close is my only DD rocket so far and I always check which end is drogue and which is main using my Fluke. Then put a piece of tape to mark them both. I have the bay marked with tick marks anyway but I always double check. I had a RRC2+ go bad before launch day and I had to rebuild a sled on the field, and forgot some jumpers which resulted in a 1 sec delayed deployment, but no damage done. So I (as do most folks here I would imagine) know how frustrating it is to have something go awry at the wrong time.

I use a cheap camera just like that. I had to shim it out to get a good angle; it took some playing around to get it right. Only to have it freeze up sometime after the first event. It recorded audio but video was froze. I vacuum formed me a shroud. Looked pretty good until I had to shim it.

What kind of switch were you using that went bad?

Lots of learning points here. Seems the big ones are:
Always double check connections.
Secure your dadburn wires.
Use the correct batteries.
TAKE YOUR TIME.

I am working on my level 2 build and this just highlights things that can go wrong. Seems like that pesky human element is our worst enemy. I hate to admit, I chuckled a bit when you said you had the wires hooked up wrong. You were dead set sure that they were correct the whole time.

So, yeah, just step back and enjoy the level 2 motors. Repair it and try it again later. Seriously, why the rush? Level 3 is just bigger motors. After my level 2 is checked, I plan on hitting clusters and air starts in a LOC Viper IV. Something different other that just a big motor. I'll get there, it'll just be a while.

Good luck on the refit.

Mikey D

Hey... It happens.

I flew my WAC Corporal, and popped the main at apogee for three flights until I finally realized the instructions said that the jumper pin configuration was dependent on the orientation of the altimeter (altimeter is supposed to be horizontal, WRT to the jumper configuration). Once I realized that and fixed it, I never touched it again. That's what I get for having altimeter whores (sharing altimeters between rockets). My last flight on the M3464 proved to be the most awesome flight ever, and the picture perfect recovery made it that much more perfect.

I was once a young rocketeer, wanting to go fast and do everything in short order. It took me going to college and realizing I was a poor college kid and couldn't afford rockets so much anymore (that, and rediscovering another hobby), to realize that I needed to enjoy the hobby more. I got back into it when I moved back to NY and got my first job. I moved within 10 mins' drive of the Geneseo field and joined MARS. It was then that I decided I wanted to enjoy the hobby and learn more about it. Also become more successful. I had one close call (forgot to close the quick link on the main) of a 2.6" bird. Let's just say it was a good thing it popped at apogee and kept tension on that open quick link. It may have shaken loose during a proper main-free descent had it not shaken loose.

I'm glad you learned a few things. Enjoy the hobby. It does suck you weren't able to secure L3 this time, but as you say, you can fly some K's and L's and make sure you are confident for L3. I was going to fly my WAC on a L1120W, but once I found out that it had been re-rated to the M1297, I decided -- what the heck. Glad I did. I had a great team supporting me at MARS and certainly miss flying with those guys.

You obviously have a great team supporting you, as evidenced by the guys pooling together to help offset the cost of the lost hardware. Make sure you pay it forward.

Mike

djs said:

What I did on this was use keyed connectors for the cwires to the euro terminal blocks for the charges. They are keyed in reverse- so for example the drogue side has male ends, and the main has female. This way when I disconnect my av bay, it will stay configured in the right way, assuming I don't pull the wires out of the terminal blocks on the altimeters. If you do this and have a keyed av bay in some way, it should hopefully eliminate some potential sources for failure.

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Brilliant in its simplicity. I haven't thought of that. All mine are male connectors on the electronics side and female for the charge wells. Easy to change, so I will be doing that before I finish my L3.

Exactimator said:

I do something similar. I have terminal strips on each bulkhead. I short one connector at a time (by touching the screws with pliers or scissors), power up the altimeter, and confirm the # of beeps.

The main goal is to confirm the internal connections are still good. But the last time I found I had reconnected my leads wrong when doing some rewiring and I had swapped the main with the drogue. Saved me from a main deployment at apogee and a long walk.

Matt,

I'd recommend keeping your GPS and using both GPS and RF. GPS will walk you right to your rocket and the RF is a good backup. It's what I did on my L3 flight. I actually borrowed the tracker from Warnerr, who also offered to operate the system for me. He left it on while I went out to retrieve my rocket based on the GPS (which was working fine). He said he could tell when I got to my rocket and picked it up because he could hear the beeps change.

Click to expand...

2nd this recommendation to use both types of units.

Glad you got it back, figured things out, and are able to fly it again.

Well, I'm home from fall break for the weekend. I finally got around to powering up the altimeters and seeing how high I went.

I'm proud to say I achieved my new personal best, 7,666 feet at a velocity of 815 feet per second.

Also, you didn't hear it from me, but there's a chance a certain large green rocket may make an appearance in Huntsville to be worked on and completed in the coming months for a redo on my certification.

blackbrandt said:

Well, I'm home from fall break for the weekend. I finally got around to powering up the altimeters and seeing how high I went.

I'm proud to say I achieved my new personal best, 7,666 feet at a velocity of 815 feet per second.

Also, you didn't hear it from me, but there's a chance a certain large green rocket may make an appearance in Huntsville to be worked on and completed in the coming months for a redo on my certification.

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Nice. What kind of battery are you going to be using with the EggFinder or are you going RDF this time?:wink::eyeroll: Beeeeeeeeee careful. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Nice. What kind of battery are you going to be using with the EggFinder or are you going RDF this time?:wink::eyeroll: Beeeeeeeeee careful. Kurt

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Still debating. I'm thinking about selling my EF stuff and going towards a BRB.

Have you followed the news with Missileworks' T3 tracker? Looks like a convenient little system.

Or do you have a Ham license and have graduated beyond such toys? Lol

+1 Take a look at MissleWorks ! I have the MissleWorks Telemantic system and love it. I have two and plan to get the T-3 soon Simple to use straight out of the box. With the new T-3 system, all you need is an Android based phone and the app. . Good luck on your next attempt Matt. Also, RDF is a good back up to any tracking system.

captbk said:

+1 Take a look at MissleWorks ! I have the MissleWorks Telemantic system and love it. I have two and plan to get the T-3 soon Simple to use straight out of the box. With the new T-3 system, all you need is an Android based phone and the app. . Good luck on your next attempt Matt. Also, RDF is a good back up to any tracking system.

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That actually looks like a very interesting idea... I'm seriously considering that option now. Only thing is I'd need to pick up a cheapy android phone for use with the system.

I'm out in my workshop right now looking at what I need to order to fix Hyperion. Right now, I'm thinking about replacing the upper body tube as well as the altimeter bay. Both of those suffered a decent amount of water damage, and I'd prefer not to risk it.

Doh, I keep forgetting that I technically already have the "pricy base station" as a result of my phone choice.....

blackbrandt said:

That actually looks like a very interesting idea... I'm seriously considering that option now. Only thing is I'd need to pick up a cheapy android phone for use with the system.

I'm out in my workshop right now looking at what I need to order to fix Hyperion. Right now, I'm thinking about replacing the upper body tube as well as the altimeter bay. Both of those suffered a decent amount of water damage, and I'd prefer not to risk it.

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If you can make MWP, bring it there and get a ton of feedback on repairs and tracking. I'm sure lots of people would love to look at it.

mccordmw said:

If you can make MWP, bring it there and get a ton of feedback on repairs and tracking. I'm sure lots of people would love to look at it.

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That would be great except it's a 9 hour drive from Huntsville

blackbrandt said:

That would be great except it's a 9 hour drive from Huntsville

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Sounds like you need to do a road trip!

blackbrandt said:

Still debating. I'm thinking about selling my EF stuff and going towards a BRB.

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Why? Eggfinder works fine. I have used it several times. Only time I had a problem is when it appears my system was powered up for far too long and sat on the pad at Airfest for far too long, just like yours. Lost track near landing but someone else found it thankfully. Else, works just fine. You've got a good system, just need to learn to properly use it and get the proper batteries for it. I have actually had more problems with my BRB 70cm system than the Eggfinder. I lose signal from the BRB every time I fly it for some reason. But usually I fly it in tandem with eggfinder so I get it back.

-Mike

I'll second that my Eggfinder works perfectly fine. I use it all the time; even on launches that are in sight the whole flight. It's just fun to track.