Ultimate Wildman Level Three Certification Build

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Does anyone know the dimensions (OD & ID) of the fiberglass motor-mount and airframe tubes used in the ultimate wildman? I was going to order a custom thrust plate and need the dimensions to send.

Thanks!
 
Does anyone know the dimensions (OD & ID) of the fiberglass motor-mount and airframe tubes used in the ultimate wildman? I was going to order a custom thrust plate and need the dimensions to send.

Thanks!

No, but I'm pretty sure Tim Lehr would know....
 
SC Precision already has those dimensions- I gave him dimensions also but didn't need to, just said Wildman FG, it might even say on his website, but when I get home I'll measure mine. Always good to be thorough.


SC Precision thrustplate - part number is 113-130-098 (6" airframe) - here is the website info area

https://www.scpconcepts.com/rocket-accesories.html

Airframe
OD - 6.19"
ID - 5.996"

Motor tube - 98mm
sorry - can't get to it and my OR file looks a little off for the ID of the motor tube.
 
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Hey, pro-tip for next time.

West Systems Colloidal silica and Aerosil-Cabosil from US Composites are basically the exact same thing (from my experience), but the Aerosil cabosil is about a third of the price. It's what I've used on all of my builds, and I've never had any issues with it.
 
Why are you using both micro balloons and colloidal silica? Don't they serve the same purpose?
 
SC Precision already has those dimensions- I gave him dimensions also but didn't need to, just said Wildman FG, it might even say on his website, but when I get home I'll measure mine. Always good to be thorough.


SC Precision thrustplate - part number is 113-130-098 (6" airframe) - here is the website info area

https://www.scpconcepts.com/rocket-accesories.html

Airframe
OD - 6.19"
ID - 5.996"

Motor tube - 98mm
sorry - can't get to it and my OR file looks a little off for the ID of the motor tube.

I am not getting the thrustplate from SC precision, but through binder design.

I PM-ed Tim yesterday, but haven't heard anything back. I'm sure he's still busy with black Saturday orders.....

Thanks for the measurements, it seems that your measurements match the performance rocketry tubes (6.000" ID & 6.170" OD) with paint, so I will send those in. Thanks!

I was reading on the black Saturday thread and saw that ultimate kits were ready to ship except for nosecones, so I contacted wildman Wednesday and asked him to ship without the nosecone so I'll have a bit more time to work on the kit before I go back to school. I got my tracking number Thursday and according to UPS it will be delivered this coming Wednesday:)
 
Why are you using both micro balloons and colloidal silica? Don't they serve the same purpose?

They both thicken the epoxy, but lend it slightly different properties. The biggest one is the silica's anti-sag property. Refer to post #19 in this thread for a more in-depth explanation.
 
I got (part of) the kit in the mail Tuesday! I knew it wasn't coming with a nosecone, but it also didn't come with a mmt. One quick call to Tim and everything was sorted! They are great to work with.

I gave everything a quick rinse to get all the dust off and let it dry:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483028138.675629.jpg

I didn't bother with any detergents or the like at this point because I knew that I'd be handling them a bit before I would get to epoxy.

Yesterday I went and bought a bunch of hardware for the AV bay and drilled out the bulkheads to accept:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483028468.625275.jpg

Next I cleaned (with detergent) and lightly sanded the inside of the switchband and outside of the bay coupler and epoxied those together.

I also 3D printed two alignment guides for the fins:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483028668.398902.jpg
ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483028703.407486.jpg

I will use these when I epoxy the fin roots in after I receive the mmt. I've used something similar for all of my rockets and they make for very straight flights.

I have also ordered a thrustplate from binder design, so hopefully that will arrive within the next week.

Over the next few days I will be designing and building the AV bay sled to hold a stratologger, RRC3, and a GoPro.

I will keep y'all updated!
 
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Is the fin guide a public design? I'm starting an Ultimate Darkstar for my L3 build and would like one. I could likely design my own, but if there is already something that works well, might as well use it. :)
 
How do you like the SeeMeCNC Rostock? That thing is pretty massive compared to my Monoprice Maker Select and the price is approachable (albeit for a kit).
 
Is the fin guide a public design? I'm starting an Ultimate Darkstar for my L3 build and would like one. I could likely design my own, but if there is already something that works well, might as well use it. :)

It's public now:) Enjoy!

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2003335/#files

How do you like the SeeMeCNC Rostock? That thing is pretty massive compared to my Monoprice Maker Select and the price is approachable (albeit for a kit).

I love it. I've been able to print a 3" nosecone among other difficult things with it. It's no more complicated than building a rocket and is incredibly rewarding. With a 10.5" radius and a 14" build height it's pretty amazing for the price. It will also do very high resolution prints too, but it takes a while.

IMG_6172.jpgIMG_6184.jpgIMG_6195.jpg

Pretty cat!

That's Rosie. She tends to make rockets stronger by adding cat-fur composites.
 
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I've made a lot of progress!

I've mostly finished construction of the AV bay. All that remains are to drill vent holes lined up with switches and dremel out a hole to put a small square of acrylic in for a GoPro. Any suggestions or experiences are welcome here...

I saw a bay similar in design to this on here a few weeks ago and liked it, so...

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483500126.385967.jpg

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483500160.195326.jpg

I'll attach altimeters in the morning and do some wiring. More, better quality pics soon.

I have also received my mmt and nosecone, so I've sanded and test-fitted (gawked at) everything put together.

I've attached u-bolts for the Kevlar harness to my fore centering ring and will epoxy that on sometime tomorrow. Speaking of, anyone know a good, affordable source of Kevlar for this beast? I'm thinking 30ft on each side.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483500587.163540.jpg

After that there's not much I can do until I receive my thrustplate from binder design and can align the mmt with fins and centering rings to match the plate.

I am going to drill the upper airframe and AV bay together tomorrow to accept these little rivets I got from apogee today. I've used plastic expanding rivets from giant leap before, but wasn't fond of using plastic for this rocket, so I bought these:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483501031.438849.jpg

Anyone got any experience with them? Also, I'm torn between JB weld or rocketpoxy for attachment. Suggestions?

I go back to college Sunday afternoon, so progress will slow, but I do have access to the rocketry lab, and will work the rocket when I have spare time. (If such an elusive beast exists.) It will be a challenge to lug this thing across campus, (not to mention getting it down there first) but I've also got bring it down for TAPs to check out.

Let me know of any comments, concerns, or suggestions! Especially in the AV bay window department, as that's something new for me.

Current status:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483501899.788287.jpg

It kind of makes everything look small.
 
I finished wiring the altimeter bay (except switches) and epoxied the rivet inserts in place.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483712932.916299.jpg

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483712972.338989.jpg

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483713006.823975.jpg

I also epoxied the fore centering ring on the mmt and did a rocketpoxy fillet on each side.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483713122.597502.jpg

I want to align the thrustplate so it's butted up against both the mmt and aft airframe, so I'm going to have to wait until I receive that to do any more on that section. Till then I can just drill vent holes and figure out how I'm going to mount a tracker in the nosecone.
 

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Not much of an update, but I did prime the nosecone to keep from getting a fiberglass splinter every time I touched it and stacked the whole thing outside (it won't fit in the house) to get a picture:

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483827896.236998.jpg

Anyone got any good recommendations for shock cord? I was thinking the 25ft 7/16 onebadhawk harnesses. Thoughts?
 
Large rocket like yours, I use 45-50ft of 1in. tubular nylon for apogee & same for main.

I fly around trees.....more is always "mo better"

If I did not, I still would use same for apogee....to guarantee scrubbing off speed of separated parts & only 25 for main.....I count shroud-line length as part of recovery.

Use whatever you like...kevlar, TN but I would still go with lengths mentioned.
 
I agree with Jim.
More=better

And for more reasons than just trees. The length of the shock cord will also help you with successful by allowing the "bleeding off" of the speed and energy.

I use 60' in the booster and 40' in the main.
 
Large rocket like yours, I use 45-50ft of 1in. tubular nylon for apogee & same for main.

I fly around trees.....more is always "mo better"

If I did not, I still would use same for apogee....to guarantee scrubbing off speed of separated parts & only 25 for main.....I count shroud-line length as part of recovery.

Use whatever you like...kevlar, TN but I would still go with lengths mentioned.

Cool, not something I want to skimp on.

I came to the same conclusion on lengths. I hadn't thought much on it previously.... I'm liking the looks of the onebadhawk 3/4" tubular Kevlar, but at $2.30 a foot, it's going to put a large dent in the wallet. Any suggestions?

Also, while I'm at it, is there some numerical way to choose shock cord strength? Anything similar to the 3 to 5 times rocket length baseline?
 
Not much of an update, but I did prime the nosecone to keep from getting a fiberglass splinter every time I touched it and stacked the whole thing outside (it won't fit in the house) to get a picture:

View attachment 308797

Anyone got any good recommendations for shock cord? I was thinking the 25ft 7/16 onebadhawk harnesses. Thoughts?

Cade,,
25 ft,,, no way...
A big statement,, means everything,,
"A harness doesn't have to be crazy strong if it is long enough"
It's a harness,, not a shock cord,, if it is taking a "shock" load there is something fundamentally wrong with your set up,,
more likely the harness is too short, but could also be the separation charge is too energetic...
The harness must be long enough to allow the kinetic energy of separation to naturally dissipate
before the separating parts reach the end of the harness..
This is even more critical with the boosters harness then with the payload sections harness,,
if the payload sections harness is a bit too short you'll be "shocking" everything when the 2 separating parts reach the end of it..
If the boosters harness is too short your likely to have the nosecone separate from the payload section
when the booster and the payload section complete reach the end of that harness..
Deploying a main at apogee is IMHO an absolute anomaly from your flight plan and a fail on a cert flight..
Yes I know some will not be too happy that I said that,, but I think everything is supposed to work the way you intended it to work,,
or it failed...

Tell me a few things about the rocket..

It's a 6" airframe..
It's a 98mm motor mount ..
What is the projected weight ??
What is the distance from the top centering ring to the top edge of the booster ??

I've set up many of these,, I just want to be certain you don't get too crazy with the weight
before I make a suggestion for material and lengths...

Teddy
 
Cool, not something I want to skimp on.

I came to the same conclusion on lengths. I hadn't thought much on it previously.... I'm liking the looks of the onebadhawk 3/4" tubular Kevlar, but at $2.30 a foot, it's going to put a large dent in the wallet. Any suggestions?

Also, while I'm at it, is there some numerical way to choose shock cord strength? Anything similar to the 3 to 5 times rocket length baseline?

My 3/4" Tubular Kevlar is too heavy for this rocket,, that's for over 100 lbs...
It will fly nicer on a relatively lighter harness...

What's the projected weight ??

Teddy
 
Cade,,
25 ft,,, no way...
A big statement,, means everything,,
"A harness doesn't have to be crazy strong if it is long enough"
It's a harness,, not a shock cord,, if it is taking a "shock" load there is something fundamentally wrong with your set up,,
more likely the harness is too short, but could also be the separation charge is too energetic...
The harness must be long enough to allow the kinetic energy of separation to naturally dissipate
before the separating parts reach the end of the harness..
This is even more critical with the boosters harness then with the payload sections harness,,
if the payload sections harness is a bit too short you'll be "shocking" everything when the 2 separating parts reach the end of it..
If the boosters harness is too short your likely to have the nosecone separate from the payload section
when the booster and the payload section complete reach the end of that harness..
Deploying a main at apogee is IMHO an absolute anomaly from your flight plan and a fail on a cert flight..
Yes I know some will not be too happy that I said that,, but I think everything is supposed to work the way you intended it to work,,
or it failed...

Tell me a few things about the rocket..

It's a 6" airframe..
It's a 98mm motor mount ..
What is the projected weight ??
What is the distance from the top centering ring to the top edge of the booster ??

I've set up many of these,, I just want to be certain you don't get too crazy with the weight
before I make a suggestion for material and lengths...

Teddy

Thanks for the in-depth and knowledgeable response.

My TAPs have made sure that I know that a main deploy at apogee is a failed cert, and I agree with them/you 100%. If I can't make a parachute deploy at the right time, then how can I be sure of the rocket's behavior at all.

Currently the rocket weighs 35lbs dry. With paint and epoxy weight it will probably end up being ~40lbs, then motor.

It is 27" from the top of the booster tube to the fore centering ring.

Thanks!
 
I bet cha it's closer to 50 then to 40,, lol..

First what's simple..
The boosters harness..
Either 7/16" Tubular Kevlar ( more common and my preference as you don't have to protect it )..
Or 1" Tubular Nylon.. Make 100% sure you protect this material,, this is strong great material,,, as long as you don't expose it to excessive heat...
A 3rd loop on the booster's harness at 4 ft from the av bay for the drogue,, this will freely allow the drogue bundle to be shoved down into the booster by the separation charge and not hinder separation,, the payload section / av bay can still move away,, the instant after separation the mass of the payload section / av bay will easily drog the drogue bundle out of the booster..
40 ft as a minimum for the booster,, 45 better....
30 ft as a minimum for the payload section,, 35 better..
Payload sections harness is a 2 loop,, the main is connected directly to the nose cone..

The boosters attachment..
A "Y" is best,, I commonly make them for this size rocket out of 7/16" Tubular Kevlar..
I can put a 24" leg on the bottom of the boosters harness..
But you're much better off with a 5/16" swivel at the top of the "Y"..
This makes the harness easily removable..
This "y" must also be shorter the the distance from the top centering ring to the to edge of the booster
so that when something wears against the sharp top edge of the booster it will be the easily serviceable harness
and not the difficult to access and remove "Y"...
In this case the "Y" must be kept down to about 24" overall...

Lastly,,
Especially on a rocket this big and heavy,,
I recommend fixing the blankets to the harnesses..
It's quite common to see a blanket ride up the harness and foul the chute..
This is less common on the main because the main on a rocket this big usually has very long shroud lines,,
so the blanket can't reach it canopy..
For sure let me fix the blanket to the boosters harness for the drogue..
I fix it under the 3rd loop,, pointed at the 3rd loop,, far enough down from the 3rd loop so it doesn't reach it...

I also downsize one size the boosters blanket from the payload sections blanket
because you don't need that big of a blanket in the booster for the drogue...

I run very small drogues,, just enough to control the 2 falling parts so they aren't flailing around...
I'd start with a 12" Cato on this beast...

Teddy
 
I bet cha it's closer to 50 then to 40,, lol..

First what's simple..
The boosters harness..
Either 7/16" Tubular Kevlar ( more common and my preference as you don't have to protect it )..
Or 1" Tubular Nylon.. Make 100% sure you protect this material,, this is strong great material,,, as long as you don't expose it to excessive heat...
A 3rd loop on the booster's harness at 4 ft from the av bay for the drogue,, this will freely allow the drogue bundle to be shoved down into the booster by the separation charge and not hinder separation,, the payload section / av bay can still move away,, the instant after separation the mass of the payload section / av bay will easily drog the drogue bundle out of the booster..
40 ft as a minimum for the booster,, 45 better....
30 ft as a minimum for the payload section,, 35 better..
Payload sections harness is a 2 loop,, the main is connected directly to the nose cone..

The boosters attachment..
A "Y" is best,, I commonly make them for this size rocket out of 7/16" Tubular Kevlar..
I can put a 24" leg on the bottom of the boosters harness..
But you're much better off with a 5/16" swivel at the top of the "Y"..
This makes the harness easily removable..
This "y" must also be shorter the the distance from the top centering ring to the to edge of the booster
so that when something wears against the sharp top edge of the booster it will be the easily serviceable harness
and not the difficult to access and remove "Y"...
In this case the "Y" must be kept down to about 24" overall...

Lastly,,
Especially on a rocket this big and heavy,,
I recommend fixing the blankets to the harnesses..
It's quite common to see a blanket ride up the harness and foul the chute..
This is less common on the main because the main on a rocket this big usually has very long shroud lines,,
so the blanket can't reach it canopy..
For sure let me fix the blanket to the boosters harness for the drogue..
I fix it under the 3rd loop,, pointed at the 3rd loop,, far enough down from the 3rd loop so it doesn't reach it...

I also downsize one size the boosters blanket from the payload sections blanket
because you don't need that big of a blanket in the booster for the drogue...

I run very small drogues,, just enough to control the 2 falling parts so they aren't flailing around...
I'd start with a 12" Cato on this beast...

Teddy

Thanks for the knowledgeable and detailed response. If anyone would know.....:)

I share your affinity for Kevlar, so it sounds like 7/16 tubular for me. I will be contacting you via your website to place an order in the near future...

About the "Y" harness: The kit comes with a 1" Kevlar strap for this purpose. Here it is dry fitted.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483901238.196521.jpg

Per your advice it will be shortened to avoid rubbing the top of the booster because it will be nearly impossible to replace. I've been looking for a suitable swivel to attach here, but have came up empty so far. Any idea on where to look for one?

About the blankets, I always attach them to the quicklink I use to connect the parachute. That way they don't go anywhere. Sounds about like what you recommend.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1483901661.292451.jpg

Thanks again for the info! I've always heard bits and pieces of this and applied them accordingly, but I've never heard this all in one spot so nicely organized. This will not only be applied to this rocket, but to several others I've already built.
 
Boosters attachment point..
I am not a fan of epoxying Kevlar into the motor mount..
In my minds eye right where the epoxy stops it will make a sharp edge and the Kevlar will be cut or fracture...
To be honest, I just like a cleaner install, like eye bolts or U bolts on the top centering ring...
I don't know,, there have been so many of these glue in strap methods done without any problem though..
For me,, if you build in eyes or U bolts on the top centering ring you have something to work with for the life of the rocket...
In a 3" airframe with a 54mm mount you only have room for one of my 3/16" eyes.. ( this is the reason I got these eyes )..
In a 4" airframe with a 75mm mount you have room for 1 or 2 ( 180 degrees apart ) 1/4" long shank eyes,,
but you can't use a split link on these eyes.. The split link won't allow the motor case to come up past it.. It is for this reason it is important to dry fit and also mount your eye's or U bolts on the top centering ring at a 45 degree angle, so the split link ( if used ) will also be at a 45 allowing more room for the case to come up past it..
On this build you have a full inch on either side of the motor mount...
You could put small U bolts there if you wanted..
There certainly does come a point that overkill on top of overkill becomes a lot of unnecessary work though..

I'm going to see if I can get Jerry B to post some pics of his motor mount for me..

The blanket on the quick link may be ok on the main but it will surly be too close for the drogue..
Just for your knowledge,, if I'm making a custom harness I don't charge to attach a blanket,, you'd just have to buy the blanket...

Teddy
 
Cade,,
I'm not looking to drum up business,, I don't need to..
To each his own,, because were disagree doesn't mean I'm right,, we're just different,, that's why tolerance is so important..
I like what I do,, that's why I do it,, there are plenty who do what you've done and say they like it,, it works,, and they have no probs with it..
It's knot for me.. ( get it,, get it,, lol..)

There is one important ting I want to point out.. You must be aware of this before you move forward..
Again, I'm not looking to make you go with my method. My method have evolved over a long time and a lot of rockets..
It is critical that you dry fit a quick link on those U bolts before you glue anything in place..
Put 2 quick links on the U bolts and slip the assembly into the airframe..
See if you can get a motor case to come up past the quick links..
If not,, then changing things later will be more difficult.. Maybe not impossible though...

Teddy
 
Does anyone have any experience mounting a camera (GoPro session) on the inside of an altimeter bay?

I'm trying to think of a good way to make a window through the switchband. Has anyone done anything similar?

My thought now is to cut a hole though the band and epoxy a piece of acrylic on the inside and somehow weigh it down to conform to the curve while the epoxy cures. The window would be a 40mm square. Suggestions?
 
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