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Using a fiberglass sleeve is probably the most simple and easiest layup you will ever do.

I am talking from experience when I say DO NOT apply epoxy first then the sleeve afterwards. It is a royal pain to place a sleeve after epoxy is applied.

Apply the sleeve first and zip tie the ends. Then mix your epoxy and either brush or roll on your epoxy. After that apply peel ply, wet it out and your done.

No fuss no muss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
carry a wreath into Washington's tomb? that is amazing!

kcobbva said:
I'm quite a lucky guy! My daughter had heard me mention the Tyrannosaur many times in the past and remembered to tell my wife, "Daddy would really be excited to get that for his birthday"! Love my girl!

Anyway, so initially I had plans to boost this on a 75mm motor with the option of a 54mm adapter and ordered the extra parts along with a dual deploy kit. Since that time, I've had a few discussions here and there and have decided to keep this one with the 54mm mmt. However I've also decided to add on an AeroPack Tailcone, so I've gotten a full length Loc Precision 54mm MMT on the way so I can extend past the upper fins with the extra lower required tubing for the tailcone. With some great advice by Dave A and rharshberger, I've also decided to try out the Soller Composites Fiberglass Sock with a veil layer over the top. I've never fiberglassed before, so it's something that's been on my "TO DO" list and figure now is the time to learn, although w/o a garage it's going to be a real pain!

Here's the unveiling. This is a very well made rocket from my initial inspection! I can't wait to see what it can do!
View attachment 305056

A few days later I got to dry fit the pieces and see what it's going to look like. Took a shot out back, and then let my son and his buddy have a cool shot before taking my pack out to Mount Vernon. (Side note: Awesome time. These two boys got to carry a wreath into the George Washington Memorial Tomb last Saturday. One day I think my boy will understand how rare an opportunity that was).
View attachment 305057View attachment 305058

Another few days and I got it down into the basement and began peeling off the Glassine layer. Now once the MMT arrives, I'll begin the build. Hopefully I'll get a chance to bevel the fins this weekend and begin building out the fin can.
View attachment 305059

My thoughts on the glassing are: Cut out foam to the proper diameter to support the tube ends with PVC through the middle. On the tube with the precut fin slots place tape on the inside of the tube to catch any stray epoxy. Stretch the fiberglass sock over the tube and tie down at both ends and hit it with the West Systems 105 and 206 hardener. Then with a plywood board setup on a few stools, layout some butcher block paper, place the veil on it and then the epoxy and then roll it onto the tube as John Coker shows in his video. Of any of the steps, this is the one I'm most worried about getting right, then I'm planning to put preforated peel ply over this with breather material and saran wrap (Thanks for the tips Rich!)

Hopefully more work will get done this weekend.
Click to expand...
 
SinfulDarkLord said:
Using a fiberglass sleeve is probably the most simple and easiest layup you will ever do.

I am talking from experience when I say DO NOT apply epoxy first then the sleeve afterwards. It is a royal pain to place a sleeve after epoxy is applied.

Apply the sleeve first and zip tie the ends. Then mix your epoxy and either brush or roll on your epoxy. After that apply peel ply, wet it out and your done.

No fuss no muss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I've been wondering about that. Really appreciate the advice.
 
I thought I posted earlier, but maybe I didn't save. Anyway, after returning from our Thanksgiving Trip, I got busy and cut the rest of the fiberglass and peel ply. Really hoping it'll go well with my first venture.

fiberglass prepare 1.jpgfiberglass ready 1.jpg

Later this evening before running off to scouts, I was able to finally glass my first fins. I only used two layers vs 3 as in TFISHs video, but using his techniques with a chip brush, it went really well. I initially added a small piece that sits right above the outer shell of the body tube and then lay a full sheet across the entire upper and lower fin sets. Since it was connecting to the mmt and not the body tube, I cut each piece in half to make it easier to lay, not worried about a seam down the mmt. I also added 1/32 crushed fiberglass to the west systems initially to create fillets that the fiberglass could lay against and not have to make a sharp curve. Then with a new batch I lay all the fiberglass and peel ply. I first taped off areas to lay the first piece and then removed them and lay the second. Next time I'll make that area a little larger as I peeled edges of fiberglass removing the tape, but was able to smooth it out.
fins taped 1.jpg fins inner epoxy 1.jpg
Final covering and then peel ply applied and a small heater keeping it warm
fins covered fiberglass 1.jpg finished 1.jpg

After getting back from Scouts tonight I peeled off the peel-ply and trimmed the excess. I can see I need to do better there, but I figure I can sand the remaining edge bits smooth once it's fully hardened. Back in front of the heater for the evening. they came out pretty smooth so I am happy with the first set. Overall, the fin can has gone from 26.3oz to 27.8oz with one of three sides complete. Don't know how that relates to what others are doing, but I think that's ok and again seem pleased with the feel. One peeling which was really easy. another closeup of the finished fin, and a shot of the completed side.
remove Peel Ply 1.jpg smooth 1.jpg peeled and slightly trimmed 1.jpg
 
Binder Design said:
It saved, you posted it to the wrong thread.
Click to expand...

And I commented on it without even noticing that it was posted to the wrong thread! I agree with Mike: too many dinosaurs, too little time.
 
Question: On the second side and tonight final side of the fin can I small airpockets under the fiberglass after removing the peel-ply. I don't know what might be causing that. The fin is fully wetted out. I lay one small piece of fiberglass and wet using a chipping brush press it in until it's basically invisible. Then I lay the second fully covering piece over that and again fully wet it out until it's again basically invisible. Then put the peel ply on, tapping it down with the chipping brush as well. Obviously somewhere in that I'm making a mistake I didn't make on the first side. Maybe I'm tapping with the chipping brush too hard after putting on the peel ply and causing too much epoxy to pull out? Don't know if that's a dumb question or not since this is my first fin layup. Sure would be interested in opinions. I'm about to do the body tubes and would love to know what's causing this before I go to that.

Thanks.
 
kcobbva said:
Question: On the second side and tonight final side of the fin can I small airpockets under the fiberglass after removing the peel-ply. I don't know what might be causing that. The fin is fully wetted out. I lay one small piece of fiberglass and wet using a chipping brush press it in until it's basically invisible. Then I lay the second fully covering piece over that and again fully wet it out until it's again basically invisible. Then put the peel ply on, tapping it down with the chipping brush as well. Obviously somewhere in that I'm making a mistake I didn't make on the first side. Maybe I'm tapping with the chipping brush too hard after putting on the peel ply and causing too much epoxy to pull out? Don't know if that's a dumb question or not since this is my first fin layup. Sure would be interested in opinions. I'm about to do the body tubes and would love to know what's causing this before I go to that.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Can you post a picture please


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
SinfulDarkLord said:
Can you post a picture please


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Wish I had taken some. Was so focused on what I was doing at the time I never dug out my phone. I ended up slicing open the air bubble area and injecting epoxy under and then putting peel ply back over it for a few more hours. Still not sure what would have caused it but I obviously did something different on that set of fins vs the 1st and second because I didn't have those issues.
 
Well. Some folks do things right. and some folks don't. I think I'm going to call this one a FAIL! :bang: I worked so slow and methodically to get it all right. Oh well, now I have to decide if I just get another upper tube, well shoot I already peeled the glassine off both, so that stops me there. I guess it can be sanded but sure isn't going to come out nice and round. I used the Soller Composites heavy sock vs light sock and it seemed a little bigger than the tube even though I'd ordered it for a 4" tube. Pulled both ends as tight as I could and zip tied it in place. It seemed nice and smooth when I finished and then put a 2oz veil layer over the top and again seemed nice and smooth. Then I put the peel ply over it and well, 4 hours later. crap. I wonder if the light would come out any better. HEAVY - went from about 9 oz to 30.7 oz. Definitely at a loss here.
dryfit.jpg

fail 2.jpg
fail1.jpg
 
kcobbva said:
Well. Some folks do things right. and some folks don't. I think I'm going to call this one a FAIL! :bang: I worked so slow and methodically to get it all right. Oh well, now I have to decide if I just get another upper tube, well shoot I already peeled the glassine off both, so that stops me there. I guess it can be sanded but sure isn't going to come out nice and round. I used the Soller Composites heavy sock vs light sock and it seemed a little bigger than the tube even though I'd ordered it for a 4" tube. Pulled both ends as tight as I could and zip tied it in place. It seemed nice and smooth when I finished and then put a 2oz veil layer over the top and again seemed nice and smooth. Then I put the peel ply over it and well, 4 hours later. crap. I wonder if the light would come out any better. HEAVY - went from about 9 oz to 30.7 oz. Definitely at a loss here.
View attachment 306585
View attachment 306586
View attachment 306587
Click to expand...
Kevin, is the last picture the cured epoxied veil layer over the heavy sock - after peel ply is removed?

How much time interval was between the sock and the veil layer?
 
MaxQ said:
Kevin, is the last picture the cured epoxied veil layer over the heavy sock - after peel ply is removed?

How much time interval was between the sock and the veil layer?
Click to expand...

I wet out the sock and once completely wet out, I then laid the veil over and ensured it was smooth. Once that was fully wet out and in place I put the peel ply over. Put a breather material over that and wrapped saran wrap over that. it spun slowly on a rotisserie for the entire time. Finished about 3:45 and peeled off the peel ply at 8:45 tonight The bottom two pictures are of the peel ply removed and ends cut. The ONLY think I can think of is I used a small roller brush putting down the peel ply. May that messed everything underneath up.
 
I see lots of sanding and Bondo in your future. Sorry.
 
BDB said:
I see lots of sanding and Bondo in your future. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Indeed.
But what is the best way to sand this and yet keep it rounded properly? I guess If I had a workshop and a lathe maybe, but I'm affraid hand sanding will have flat spots all over. Palm sanders work on this stuff?
 
kcobbva said:
I wet out the sock and once completely wet out, I then laid the veil over and ensured it was smooth. Once that was fully wet out and in place I put the peel ply over. Put a breather material over that and wrapped saran wrap over that. it spun slowly on a rotisserie for the entire time. Finished about 3:45 and peeled off the peel ply at 8:45 tonight The bottom two pictures are of the peel ply removed and ends cut. The ONLY think I can think of is I used a small roller brush putting down the peel ply. May that messed everything underneath up.
Click to expand...

With the sock, veil, peel ply, breather and saran wrap - seems like you had a lot of things going on here while undergoing the initial cure.
I 've done a lot of fiber glassing - but not with a sock...so I can't say for sure what transpired here.
I've gotten great results over the years with one layer at a time and no fancy peel plys breathers etc.
I only went to peel ply with the recent Saturn 1 since it was a big CF tube.


You guys that have used a sock, have you always laid the veil layer over the uncured sock?

Not sure why the small roller on peel ply would cause this...but maybe it moved the uncured veil layer around the uncured sock base layer - allowing some epoxy build up in places...and make an uneven finish?

Don't toss it. Wait till it is fully cured - then take a look...maybe it can be smoothed out with a belt sander and knock down the uneven epoxy build up w/o getting into the fabric.

You have the other BT with fin slots...try it with just the sock and let it cure.
I'll bet a veil layer on that and peel ply will give a good result....
 
Last edited:
kcobbva said:
Indeed.
But what is the best way to sand this and yet keep it rounded properly? I guess If I had a workshop and a lathe maybe, but I'm affraid hand sanding will have flat spots all over. Palm sanders work on this stuff?
Click to expand...

Sometimes sanding is like sculpture.....and getting a perfectly round surface is an art.

The first step here is to knock down the high points.
After that I think you will be able to see small depressions on the tube (in the light) and use some filler to raise those up and even up the surface - it will be an iterative process, but you can do it.
Then you can do a veil wrap on that and get a reasonably good finish.
Don't ask me how I know this. :wink:
 
Wow. Sorry to see the results there. First the sock is far too heavy--crap that looks like it was made for a radial tire. Second measure your epoxy. You should never use more than 20% over the weight of your matrix (fiberglass or CF weight for the cylindrical layer). Third, I didn't catch it, what type/material did you use for peel-ply? Looks extremely non-porous to result in that much epoxy weight. Overall, this takes practice, but yes, I'd throw that tube out and try again.
 
dixontj93060 said:
Wow. Sorry to see the results there. First the sock is far too heavy--crap that looks like it was made for a radial tire. Second measure your epoxy. You should never use more than 20% over the weight of your matrix (fiberglass or CF weight for the cylindrical layer). Third, I didn't catch it, what type/material did you use for peel-ply? Looks extremely non-porous to result in that much epoxy weight. Overall, this takes practice, but yes, I'd throw that tube out and try again.
Click to expand...

IIRC Kevin got advice on that sock from others that had used it.

Not sure who he got the peel ply from.
As you pointed out....that significant weight gain does indicate it retained a hell of a lot of epoxy.

I'd try again on the next section but I wouldn't toss this first one.
I've recovered from some bad overlaps in early FG layups...sure it will take time, but he's invested already here.
If money is no object...and time is of the essence, well, that's another story.
 
Thanks guys. It did take a LOT of epoxy to wet out that sock. It was a lot heavier than I had envisioned from other conversations and a phone conversation with Soller Composites. I'm seriously considering getting the "light" version and making a go of that. So, I had been led to believe that once I started, I needed to do all the layups at the same time. It's ok for the tube to cure fully and then go back and lay a veil layer over the top of that? I'd had folks, including Mike from Binder recommend hanging the tube with a weight holding the sock tight, but I wasn't sure how I would get the veil layer on it, so I opted to go with the rotisserie. If it's ok to come back later and do that..or do it at the green stage? maybe that would allow me to do the hang which I think would do a good job of keeping the sock tight. Those tie wraps were tight, but I needed two or three per side to really wrench it down without the edges peeling up. Anyway, I'll bring the tube out to the next launch on the 10th so you can take a look at it Jim. Might even bring another fun item that's not launched in about 12 years. I've been fixing some damage from years of storage but believe that one is ready to fly.

Thanks everyone for the input. Believe me I'm reading it and taking it to heart.
 
kcobbva said:
Question: On the second side and tonight final side of the fin can I small airpockets under the fiberglass after removing the peel-ply. I don't know what might be causing that. The fin is fully wetted out. I lay one small piece of fiberglass and wet using a chipping brush press it in until it's basically invisible. Then I lay the second fully covering piece over that and again fully wet it out until it's again basically invisible. Then put the peel ply on, tapping it down with the chipping brush as well. Obviously somewhere in that I'm making a mistake I didn't make on the first side. Maybe I'm tapping with the chipping brush too hard after putting on the peel ply and causing too much epoxy to pull out? Don't know if that's a dumb question or not since this is my first fin layup. Sure would be interested in opinions. I'm about to do the body tubes and would love to know what's causing this before I go to that.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Man o Man I wished I had kept on following this. I am almost 100% positive reguardless how much stippling you did to get rid of the air, with that much epoxy on the layup it will actually begin to exotherm tiny bubbles. Without placing perforated film over the peel ply then breather and bag (if pulling vacuum) you really need to tend to the layup for at least an hour. A contact layup can become heavy with too much epoxy.
kcobbva said:
Well. Some folks do things right. and some folks don't. I think I'm going to call this one a FAIL! :bang: I worked so slow and methodically to get it all right. Oh well, now I have to decide if I just get another upper tube, well shoot I already peeled the glassine off both, so that stops me there. I guess it can be sanded but sure isn't going to come out nice and round. I used the Soller Composites heavy sock vs light sock and it seemed a little bigger than the tube even though I'd ordered it for a 4" tube. Pulled both ends as tight as I could and zip tied it in place. It seemed nice and smooth when I finished and then put a 2oz veil layer over the top and again seemed nice and smooth. Then I put the peel ply over it and well, 4 hours later. crap. I wonder if the light would come out any better. HEAVY - went from about 9 oz to 30.7 oz. Definitely at a loss here.
View attachment 306585

View attachment 306586
View attachment 306587
Click to expand...

Easy way to avoid it is to lay one layer, wet it out removing air bubbles, not so much the epoxy. Then lay a second layer and stipple it down into the epoxy below to soak up excess epoxy. Add a little epoxy to dry spots, check for air pockets and you are done unless adding peel ply. Matter o fact when we used to do quick n dirty layups for non flight material we would slop a bunch of epoxy on a table and throw 5 layers on it soaking the epoxy up like a sponge. Another way to sop up excess resin is to just use shop towels and hand stipple with them.
I used to work for Scaled Composites so in my mind I would leave peel ply off everywhere besides where I'm bonding a fin/fillet to leave it glassy smooth. Then come back strong with a clean wet sand and resin wipe once more and squeegee off excess and streaks until glassy.

kcobbva said:
Indeed.
But what is the best way to sand this and yet keep it rounded properly? I guess If I had a workshop and a lathe maybe, but I'm affraid hand sanding will have flat spots all over. Palm sanders work on this stuff?
Click to expand...
I would not even consider a palm sander. MAYBE an orbital DA.
As for how to fix your dilemma with the tube, because I would to not waste all of the material, I'd stick down sand paper to a flat work table and rock the tube on it at alternating 45 and 90 degree angles to body work it down just to the top layer of glass. Then resin wipe a clean layer on top again or if peel plying just add a layer to remove later.

Not to sure where the pull the sock tight and zip tie it came into play but composites generally like to lay comfortably flat from what I know. If those zip ties moved at all at all before it fully cured it most likely sucked air into the layup. If they didn't move I would think pulling them so tight would create stress on the fibers before stress from the launch was ever introduced.

That's my 2 pennies for what its worth. Hope it helps in the future.
 
Last edited:
It appears to me your resin was retained. If I am not mistaken you used a perforated plastic film as your peel ply? This would have been most likely the cause of so much resin still being in it and causing it to lump up like that.

I would obtain the lighter version of the sock to reduce weight.

I recommend getting either the shrink sleeve or the blue peel ply that Soller Composites has.

Hopefully this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
SinfulDarkLord said:
It appears to me your resin was retained. If I am not mistaken you used a perforated plastic film as your peel ply? This would have been most likely the cause of so much resin still being in it and causing it to lump up like that.

I would obtain the lighter version of the sock to reduce weight.

I recommend getting either the shrink sleeve or the blue peel ply that Soller Composites has.

Hopefully this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

BINGO! No peel ply appears to have been used. The perf was used. Which looks like non perf instead of P3 or 6. B-I-N-G-O
 
Sorry to hear your build problem.

Second measure your epoxy. You should never use more than 20% over the weight of your matrix (fiberglass or CF weight for the cylindrical layer).
Click to expand...
Agree with you on this. I measure the cloth, then add 10% (mainly to allow for loss in the container and brushes etc) and that is how much resin I mix. Need to work it in to wet out properly.

Good luck with whatever you choose to fix it.
 
kcobbva said:
Thanks guys. It did take a LOT of epoxy to wet out that sock. It was a lot heavier than I had envisioned from other conversations and a phone conversation with Soller Composites. I'm seriously considering getting the "light" version and making a go of that. So, I had been led to believe that once I started, I needed to do all the layups at the same time. It's ok for the tube to cure fully and then go back and lay a veil layer over the top of that? I'd had folks, including Mike from Binder recommend hanging the tube with a weight holding the sock tight, but I wasn't sure how I would get the veil layer on it, so I opted to go with the rotisserie. If it's ok to come back later and do that..or do it at the green stage? maybe that would allow me to do the hang which I think would do a good job of keeping the sock tight. Those tie wraps were tight, but I needed two or three per side to really wrench it down without the edges peeling up. Anyway, I'll bring the tube out to the next launch on the 10th so you can take a look at it Jim. Might even bring another fun item that's not launched in about 12 years. I've been fixing some damage from years of storage but believe that one is ready to fly.
Thanks everyone for the input. Believe me I'm reading it and taking it to heart.
Click to expand...

Kevin...sure...I'll check it out...are you going to the next Battlepark on Saturday only? (I think the wife and I have a dinner date with a friend...I can probably make it if I leave the event in time to get back)
 
Last edited:
dford said:
I used to work for Scaled Composites so in my mind I would leave peel ply off everywhere besides where I'm bonding a fin/fillet to leave it glassy smooth. Then come back strong with a clean wet sand and resin wipe once more and squeegee off excess and streaks until glassy.
Click to expand...

Wow...I'd like to hear more about that.

Rutan has done some really interesting things over the years.
Were you there when Space Ship One was being made?
 
MaxQ said:
Wow...I'd like to hear more about that.

Rutan has done some really interesting things over the years.
Were you there when Space Ship One was being made?
Click to expand...

Not to thief a thread but resin wiping is the same as prepping a foam tool to layup in. Lots of body work to make it perfect and lots and lots of layers. WestFAST makes easier work if one moves fast. Paint brush it on relatively smooth and squeegee off. We used an eraser like rubber I couldn't find online to squeegee. This is what I did find though it isn't really it.
 

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