Estes Super Alpha

Bunsen Honeydew said:

I'll throw my Super Alpha in. The paint is dry and it's ready to fly.

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Looks great, nice job!

BEC said:

Here are a couple of shots of a bunch of Alphas including my just-completed SuperAlpha.

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Bernard, those are some nice looking modrocs. They all look like they are very well built and finished. Thanks for sharing those pictures.

Seeing some of those NC shapes reminds me that, over the years, Estes has used several NC designs in the various Alpha kits. And the shape (original?) I remember from "the olden days" was a lot more rounded and full than the NC shape that is currently in the new Super Alpha kits. I think all the Alpha NCs were identified as -50K, even if there were two or three different shapes.

So, qstn #1 is: Does anyone have a good mathematical description of the old original contour? (such as ogive NN:1 with nose radius = MM)

My qstn #2 is: Do we know of anyone currently making a BT60-upscaled equivalent?

I don't know the answer to the first question, but the cone with the closest to correct shape that I know of that is currently available is the BNC-50K from Semroc (which you can see on the Alpha II in the group shot).

Semroc is where I would look for a BT-60 sized upscale, but I don't see one in their current line. They have upscaled 50X and 50Y to BT-60....so maybe all it would take is a request.....

I got a BT-80K from Semroc with the old classic shape. Semroc has made a 60K for other kit manufacturers, and the shape is correct. In fact, I almost substituted a 13" BT-60 tube and one of the nose cones from a Hawks Hobby Super Trident, for the 12" tube and nose in the Super Alpha.

BEC,

That Semrock BNC-50K shape is definitely one of the shapes that Estes used on the Alpha (I remember it, and I think I have a few unbuilt kits with that NC) but the shape I associate with the "original" Alpha was fatter and more rounded. I think it was the same NC that Estes used to provide with the Astron Sprint. Does anybody else remember this or am I imagining things?

If you check in the 74 catalog:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes74/74est18.html
you can see that the shape of the NC on the Alpha III is fatter. And right next to that is a pic of the Alpha, with a pointy shape like the current 50K shape. I think that at the time the NC for the III was plastic, and the NC for the original was balsa.

Adding to the confusion, in the 67 catalog:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes67/67est10.html
the original Alpha is shown with the fat NC.
But then if you look in the old "Model Rocketry Manual" on the page for "your first rocket" the Alpha is shown with the pointy NC
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69estp50.html
Seems like Estes picked just about any old NC that they had laying around and threw it into the kit?

powderburner said:

BEC,

That Semrock BNC-50K shape is definitely one of the shapes that Estes used on the Alpha (I remember it, and I think I have a few unbuilt kits with that NC) but the shape I associate with the "original" Alpha was fatter and more rounded. I think it was the same NC that Estes used to provide with the Astron Sprint. Does anybody else remember this or am I imagining things?

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Alpha, Drifter, Farside, X-Ray, Cobra, top of the Trident. All these used the BNC-50K.

Constellation, Sprint used BNC-50X

Starlight, Orbital Transport, Shrike, Avenger, bottom of the top part of Trident used BNC-50Y

Midget, and bottom of Trident used BNC-50J.

The grinder that was used to make the nose cones had a certain amount of slop, depending on the grinding wheels being used and how old they were, so there could be a bit of variation in diameter of nose cones.

But their shapes were basically the same for all those years.

The injection-molded PNC-50K (Alpha III, Citation Quasar, BT-50 Phantom) was based on BNC-50K, but was NOT the same. The main difference was the tip was rounded.

The original blow-molded PNC-50K, which existed from early 80's to late 90's, retained the classic shape, as did the blow-molded versions of the X and Y shapes. The J shape never made it into plastic.

Shortly after Tunick took over as GM, the wood shop at Estes was closed (after the Trident II, and Collector's Edition Mars Snooper) and the equipment was discarded. That effectively ended the J shape, and the X shape was abandoned as well.

In the late 90's, both the Y and the K shapes underwent a revision, probably due to molds wearing out. The Y shape ended up injection-molded instead of blow-molded. Both appear more mathematically defined.

If you check in the 74 catalog:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes74/74est18.html
you can see that the shape of the NC on the Alpha III is fatter. And right next to that is a pic of the Alpha, with a pointy shape like the current 50K shape. I think that at the time the NC for the III was plastic, and the NC for the original was balsa.

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As I noted above, don't confuse the Alpha III shape as having anything to do with the Alpha shape, except for being somewhat similar. At least it was closer to the original than the current nose cone.

Adding to the confusion, in the 67 catalog:
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes67/67est10.html
the original Alpha is shown with the fat NC.
But then if you look in the old "Model Rocketry Manual" on the page for "your first rocket" the Alpha is shown with the pointy NC
https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69estp50.html
Seems like Estes picked just about any old NC that they had laying around and threw it into the kit?

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Never, ever go by artist's renditions or photo-enhancements. See the actual photographs. They all agree with each other.

I'll defer to Roy's detail knowledge. Some more photo comparisons are in this post on YORF.

I certainly concur that both of those pages from the 1967 catalog (I remember that catalog!) don't have the actual BNC-50K shape drawn accurately.

RoyAtl said:

Shortly after Tunick took over as GM, the wood shop at Estes was closed (after the Trident II, and Collector's Edition Mars Snooper) and the equipment was discarded. That effectively ended the J shape, and the X shape was abandoned as well.

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For the 50J, the BMS version is spot on. I sent Bill at BMS an original 50J, after I asked him to make me a scale-up for a 2.3X Trident. The upscale was WAY off, so I sent him the 50J. He returned it, along with one he made, plus a redo of my upscaled 50J. I am not sure why, but I always liked that nose cone. It ended up on most of my BT50-based 3FNCs as a kid.

RoyAtl,

Thanks for sharing all that background.

You may be right, the more rounded, less pointed NC shape I am remembering for the Alpha might have been due to worn tooling, but what I had was more than just a little bit round. Again, I have a clear memory of having an Alpha and Sprint side by side, and noting that the NC shapes were almost the same. The Estes NCs looked a lot more like the Semroc 50KP shape shown in BEC's pictures.

I also remember pestering my jr high science teacher about why the NCs were round. Not having any aerodynamics training at that time, I thought (like many) that pointy NC shapes were more streamlined, and lower drag. It took some digging to find out that subsonic aerodynamics like round shapes better. After that, all my rockets had round noses for quite a while. It wasn't until some time later that I learned the quantitative difference just isn't that much, at least for model rockets.

And I know I am remembering the basic Alpha (not the III) because back in those days (68-69-70-71) the Alphas had balsa fins, full-length BT, and balsa NCs. Ah, the good ol' days.

And the first time I saw a "pointy" NC on an Alpha, I remember thinking 'That just doesn't look right' (and it still doesn't, at least to me)

My super
Only thing I changed was kevlar shock cord. It's still 18mm

Okay, it appears that everything is copacetic between Semroc and Estes so I'm back to the Super Alpha.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, as an old Free Flighter I weigh everything on a digital scale. Turns out the balsa nosecone in my Super Alpha kit weighed a whopping 38 grams! A similar but not identical Semroc BNC-60AC I was using on another project weighed only 11 grams. Well, that sealed the Wildman deal for me and I installed a 24mm motor mount as I would already have some ballast up front.

Here's a picture of the Wildman Super Alpha getting it's first fin. That's the kevlar shock cord tether hanging out the back.

Here is my Super alpha, with my alpha ready for paint, just waiting on an order from semroc for the 3/16th launch lug. I built it with a 24 MM mount. I can not wait for the next launch to see how it flies. It is a neat looking rocket.

Finally had a few days with lower humidity so I was able to get the paint job done. Turned out nice, and I'm hoping to fly it this week. The silver is Duplicolor, and the black is Rustoleum Metallic.

Boosterdude said:

Finally had a few days with lower humidity so I was able to get the paint job done. Turned out nice, and I'm hoping to fly it this week. The silver is Duplicolor, and the black is Rustoleum Metallic.

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Very nice! Very pretty rocket model, too!

Not a Raiders fan but the silver and black look very nice on your rocket.

Did you overcoat with Future?

Here is my super alpha - Short video, we had an amazing day for flying. I Think next time I will try a D-12-7. I do not know what the "pfff" sound was as it was going up, the ejection charge went off after the end of this clip.

[YOUTUBE]fzYZRnh_3hI[/YOUTUBE]

Flew mine three times today in perfect conditions. I tired a Estes C6-3, 5 and a Quest C6-3. All flights were perfect, with the exception of the nose cone hitting the BT on the Quest motor. Very minor damage that is already fixed.

All flights were arrow straight and easily reached over 600ft as advertised. It performs very well on 18mm motors, actually better than expected. The next one gets a 24mm mount.

Boosterdude said:

Flew mine three times today in perfect conditions. I tired a Estes C6-3, 5 and a Quest C6-3. All flights were perfect, with the exception of the nose cone hitting the BT on the Quest motor. Very minor damage that is already fixed.

All flights were arrow straight and easily reached over 600ft as advertised. It performs very well on 18mm motors, actually better than expected. The next one gets a 24mm mount.

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Awesome looking rocket and great photo! I love the paint scheme!

qquake2k said:

Awesome looking rocket and great photo! I love the paint scheme!

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Thanks, the stock color scheme just didn't do it for me. I use this color scheme all of the time, it looks good on everything.

Boosterdude said:

Thanks, the stock color scheme just didn't do it for me. I use this color scheme all of the time, it looks good on everything.

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Yeah, I like it a lot better than the stock scheme, too. Is that silver or gray?

Built mine completely stock with almost nonexistent fillets and flew
on a D24 in windless conditions to Rocksim 1220 ft. Vid

[YOUTUBE]I53srQ8X3Sc[/YOUTUBE]

qquake2k said:

Yeah, I like it a lot better than the stock scheme, too. Is that silver or gray?

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Duplicolor Silver

mIcahel said:

Built mine completely stock with almost nonexistent fillets and flew
on a D24 in windless conditions to Rocksim 1220 ft. Vid

[YOUTUBE]I53srQ8X3Sc[/YOUTUBE]

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Nice, leaves in a hurry.

Here's my just completed Estes Super Alpha.

I built it almost stock, I just replaced the kit shock cord with one that was longer.

Looks great Bob, very nice looking job!

I just finished a Super Alpha myself. A nice kit and a pretty impressive amount of rocket for the money.

I too installed a longer shock cord and instead of a balsa NC, my particular kit included a plastic "Mean Machine" style NC which to me looked very Un-Alpha like so I swapped it out for a "Stormcaster" style one.

Haven't flown it yet. I hope to just as soon as the grass around here turns somewhat green again.

Thanks for the reminder.

My Super Alpha is done save for the decals and there's a launch this weekend.

Not quite stock in that I went with a 24mm motor mount, kevlar, improved shock cord, nomex shield, TF chute, AND I painted the nosecone red. Not a big fan of airframe and nosecone painted the same color.

Say...I've got a couple of E30 single use motors...hmmmm....

I was surprised to see that a major sacrilege had been committed against the Estes Alpha.....by Estes. The bagged kits of the Super Alpha that were hanging on the peg all had plastic nose cones, and they were NOT the right shape (or even close). The kits have the Estes PNC-60AH nose cone, the same shape used in the Mean Machine, Blue Ninja, Red Max, and others.

I thought Estes had shifted to balsa NCs for their current kits because of problems with possible lead contamination in the Chinese plastic parts, and it was easier for Estes to just go with "natural" wood. It doesn't matter to me what the NC is made of, it just needs to be a scale (or near-scale) shape, as has been discussed in the rest of this thread. This NC (the PNC-60AH) is waaay too long, and not even a visual match for the original Alpha shape.

Did they do this on purpose, or did they screw up? (I wonder if I have a collectible.)

My Super Alpha came with a balsa nose cone. I got it 2 or 3 months ago.

I seem to recall another thread where Estes was substituting Plastic nosecones due to the rising costs and shortages of balsa.

The redmax nosecone was probably substituted since it was the closest in terms of shape that was currently in production. The Big Bertha type nose cone would be silly looking.

While it is not faithful to the Alpha design, it would probably look pretty cool.