Estes "Small Smoke" build...

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John, for some reason I always have troubles viewing about half of the images you post at full resolution. I'm not sure why some will expand and some won't, but it's frustrating. Anyhoo... Is the first image you posted of a 1:1 Nike Smoke? There's a lot of good details in that image. Do you have other detail images that you could share?

Well I've noticed this problem also. Alas I believe it has to do with when the photo was taken and altered to fit the size requirement at the time. I used to have to keep all photos below 100kb to upload to TRF. When TRF-2 came along somehow the photo size problem went away. Alas many of my early photos still haven't been resized. As my files are fairly extensive resizing them takes time, Only If I know which photos are a problem. As for the full size nike-apache photo in my earlier post
they were all take in the early 90's at Wallops Island Visitors Center in Virgina. I'll have to go into my scale data files to find and resize those particular shots, Sorry I'll see of I can find them shortly.
 
Hi John,

I don't recall ever saying the fins were solid. If I did I apologize, I know better! The fins on the Smoke rounds were hollow cast magnesium, according to the Atlantic Research Corporation "catalog" of Nike fin configurations (PDF attached below).

The fin in the pic is not the same fin type as typically used on the Smoke rounds. The diamond type were called "Standard Nike fins" by ARC and are very typical for the Nike when used for a booster stage. The one in the pic is the first stage of a Nike/Apache combination. The Standard fin was made in three versions, Lightweight Standard, Standard and Heavy Duty Standard. All of the Standard fins were, as you pointed out, constructed of an inner structure with aluminum or magnesium skin. There were also various means of mounting for the Standard fins, and different shrouds and sleeves.

The Smoke rounds typically use what the catalog calls a "modified diamond" type that were used when a lower drag configuration was required. They were made of cast magnesium (hollow) and also used a different shroud configuration than the standard Nike fin. They were available in several sizes and the catalog even talks about custom sizes of this fin being available. These are the ones I was trying to model. I thought about using the cardstock methd, but chickened out because I had ideas about flying this model on mid-power motors and wanted to make sure the fins were up to it. From what you are saying it sounds like I could have gone heavy cardstock and been okay. I'll have try it next time!

Below is the ARC fin catalog in PDF form. I thought it was really interesting. There are lots of drawings and pics that give an idea of the variety of tail feathers that were used on the various types of Nike rockets. The one disappointment for me was that the military fin types (Ajax and Herc) are not included.

The problem with this info is that, if you are like me and get all OCD when it comes to scale stuff, you now have all this data on the various fin sets but still have to figure out which type was used on the rocket your wanting to model! The airfoil shape of the modified diamond used on the Smokes is a give away, but it is hard to tell with the standard fins.

I especially enjoy your work and look forward to seeing what you are working on, John. The X-7 was one of my particular favorites! how did it fly?

Thanks for posting!

Mike

Hi Mike:
Yes the ARC pdf is in my data files. I've used it in many a scale project over the years. In much of my research with the Atlantic Research Corp folks. They confirmed most of the "Standard Nike fins" were indeed fabricate Aircraft grade aluminum sandwiches. Particularly the Nike Smoke series. Those extremely expensive Cast Magnesium fins were used in later Staged very High Speed sounding rockets as can be seen in the later part of the pdf.
Generally speaking and with our OCD tendencies in mind; Earlier Nike sounding rockets can be assumed to have been fabricated aluminum skins. with the larger heavier multi stage Nike-Nike, Nike-HoJo and Nike-Orion and up could be the "Diamond" series in various sizes.

Yes. The X-7a flew surprisingly well. I launched it from a 9" x .049" Stainless Steel Launch rod tilted to about 45degrees hoping to get a little lift from the huge booster wing/fins. I Ripped off the pad so quickly I not only didn't catch the lift-off I missed the in-flight shot getting only smoke trails. MMX-II motor have a really High initial thrust. Hope to try again, perhaps using the photo burst mode to catch a liftoff and inflight shots.

Haven't built the launcher for my Tiamat Scale model yet, been busy with family stuff the last month or so.
 
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Thanks John, that's great info! Would the aluminum Smoke fins have been riveted or were they welded? I have only seen the original military versions of the Nike booster in person and all of the Ajax fins seem to have been riveted along the leading and trailing edge as well as to the inner structure. This pic kind of shows what I'm talking about:

just_do_it___nike_ajax_missile__by_davidkrigbaum-d9cuba1.jpg
 
Thanks John, that's great info! Would the aluminum Smoke fins have been riveted or were they welded? I have only seen the original military versions of the Nike booster in person and all of the Ajax fins seem to have been riveted along the leading and trailing edge as well as to the inner structure. This pic kind of shows what I'm talking about:

View attachment 304894

It all depends on the specific round or prototype YOU plan on scale modeling. If your research on a specific round can be documented with riveted fins then model them that way. If on the other hand you do not have comformation photos. Most of the Sounding rocket fins were fabricated using solid welded seams and spot welded internal stiffener Z braces. To be pefectly honest; the riveted fins in your photo would be a bear to accurately scale but could be done with a Tooth-pic sanded into a small diameter white glue dotter.

Keep in mind; The rocket or missile being scaled intended end use. Most Nike-Ajax were mass produced still using the Skin and Sturt method but not intended to be all that aerodynamic as they are interceptor missiles rather then High performance sounding rockets. A bit of excess surface Drag on the booster really was not a major concern. Whereas; looking to get the absolute most altitude from a particular Booster -sustainer combination with a scientific payload those little draggy rivets would be the very first thing changed.
Hope that makes some sense.
 
Forgot the launch lugs... :facepalm:

Maybe you could try making loops of wire (mini paperclips have thick enough wire) and form it into a ' c=( ' shape (lug goes into the 'c', '=' is standoff, '(' is in the tube where the wire goes out to make a larger footprint (each side bends out, the middle is separated), and (not shown) the wire bends forward so the "lug" doesn't wobble up and and down.
 
Mike - Sorry to bother you, but I'm finally getting around to doing a little work on my Nike Smoke, and was wondering of you ever got around to writing down the dimensions of your fins? Also, have you flown yours yet?
 
The dimensions are from the Atlantic Research Corp. document. He has a link on post #28.
 
Hey TJ! Bother me any time you like! I'm sorry that I forgot to get that data to you. I've been really busy with other stuff (Some of them other rocket projects, if I am honest...) and the Smoke has been sitting in the shop feeling lonely. Your post prompted me to go get the poor thing off of the shelf and put it back on the bench.

I'll dig out the fin dimensions and drawings tonight or tomorrow and shoot it over to you. I saved the patterns for the built up fins I made, so I'll post those as well.

I'm building the particular round from the vid that I posted above, so the fins are the smaller set that is described in the "fin catalog". I need to do a bit more filling and priming, then I'm going to use Testors Metallizers to try and get that slightly brassy color on the fin can.

Don't forget to post pics of your build!

Mike
 
Thanks Mike. I've got plenty of other projects going on myself, so even my Smoke may not see the finish line anytime soon. I'm trying to get some competition models built and tested before mid June. I haven't been to a competition in over 30 years and I need to brush up. Should be fun though.
 
Best of luck at the contest! I've never been to a real contest, though my club has had a few. Always seems I'm out of town at the time.

Here are the patterns, dimensions and a rough assembly drawing of the fins I made for the Nike Smoke. If I've left anything out or something isn't clear, let me know. Making sure the fins are square is a bit fiddly, but not too difficult. They come out really strong and lighter than you would expect.

Be sure to keep us posted when you get back to the Smoke!

Mike

Nike fin pattern.jpg
 
Awesome! Thanks Mike!

Wow! I haven't seen anyone draft such precise drawings with pencil in a long, long time. Very nicely done; especially the oblique! Thank you. The only question I have is, what kind of ruler are you using to get tenths of an inch when you're building? Usually, if I can't use fractions of an inch, I switch to using Metric.
 
Thanks TJ! I'm a bit of a Luddite I suppose, but I still prefer pencil and paper!

I use flexible steel engineer scales for building. I have several lengths and couldn't do without them. They come graduated in 10ths or 64ths, some have both. Check at HL, they have them in the drafting section. I also have a set of Harbor Freight digital calipers that I use when I'm feeling particularly fiddly...

This is what the steel rulers look like:

engscale.jpg

As a bonus they are great for cutting since you can't gouge the steel!
 
Where did you get the data for the fin sleeve?

The ARC does not mention the seam that I know of. I did find some pictures of the Nike Cajun sleeve in another thread, but there were no dimensions.
 
If you haven't done the lugs yet you could use cut sections of the giant leap conformal rail guides. They're slightly oversized but approximately match the profile of the launch shoes.
 
Mike, I have a question, the paper wrap you added on the fin can, was that just regular printer paper, Kraft paper, or what? I want to mimic your work, but I don't know what to use.

I used the cardstock from a filing folder. Could be thinner but I wouldn't go much thicker.
 
Where did you get the data for the fin sleeve?

The ARC does not mention the seam that I know of. I did find some pictures of the Nike Cajun sleeve in another thread, but there were no dimensions.

Hi Inc,

To tell the truth I interpreted the sleeve dimensions from a picture in the ARC catalog. In the section that refers to the "modified diamond fin" there is a pic that shows the fins, fin mount and sleeve sections (just below the chart listing the various sizes of fin). The forward sleeve section ends where the flat bit of the fin begins (the end of the forward bevel), so I based the join line of the sleeve sections entirely in reference to the fin. The two sleeve sections cover the area between the end of the cylindrical motor and the nozzle skirt, and this dimension can be found here:

https://meatballrocketry.com/nike-motor-data/

Lots of good reference material there!

Mugs
 
If you haven't done the lugs yet you could use cut sections of the giant leap conformal rail guides. They're slightly oversized but approximately match the profile of the launch shoes.

Funny you should mention it, Inc! I really like the GL rail guides and have a bunch for the different tube diameters. I was looking at one the other day and it occurred to me that a short section would bear a passing resemblance to a real launch shoe. Seems a bit of overkill for an LPR, but I'll probably do it that way anyhow just because it will look cool!
 
Turns out about this thick.

You can see that my craftsmanship is significantly worse than Mugs914's.
Having not found any dimensions in my cursory search, I began to extrapolate from overly grainy pictures (many of which were not even of the Nike Smoke but of other Nike boosted rockets). This soon advanced to the replacement of meaningful data hunting by meaningless but satisfactory (at the time) guesswork.
It all went downhill from there. Perhaps I am not the best person the receive advice from; after all, I chose the filing folder because it was lying around and had a nice surface finish and flexibility.


IMG_3201.jpg
 
Hi Inc,

To tell the truth I interpreted the sleeve dimensions from a picture in the ARC catalog. In the section that refers to the "modified diamond fin" there is a pic that shows the fins, fin mount and sleeve sections (just below the chart listing the various sizes of fin). The forward sleeve section ends where the flat bit of the fin begins (the end of the forward bevel), so I based the join line of the sleeve sections entirely in reference to the fin. The two sleeve sections cover the area between the end of the cylindrical motor and the nozzle skirt, and this dimension can be found here:

https://meatballrocketry.com/nike-motor-data/

Lots of good reference material there!

Mugs

Thanks for the link.

I did see see the picture but I didn't know whether the tab on the front piece connected to a common support underneath or overlapped and bolted to the bottom piece. The diagram at the top left of the page has some kind of a transition or something... not sure what to make of that.
I guessed the position of the longitudinal weld seam at ~60° from the fin with a ruler, a photo (of the Nike Cajun (insert interrobang) booster) and trigonometry.

But the confirmations, corrections and other data are invaluable. I will probably build another more accurate one later on as fixing the mistakes will be difficult at best. Oh well; still flies.

On that note, will I have to shield the inside of the tube with something if I sink the end of the motor in about 1/2in - 3/4in down from the end? Also, does braided stainless steel wire such as this work for flameproof shock cords (connected to elastic or rubber)?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HCFUM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


How did you finish your model? Did you use primer (and if so, did it detract from the detailing)?
 
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From the film it appears that at least one of the plates on the nose cone is painted green. Does anyone know whether the other two are?
 
This picture could probably be measured to find the approximate dimensions of the fin can. It appears to match that on the Nike Cajun which means possibly more data.

IMG_3217.jpg
 
Hi there Inc... Great pic. Never have seen that one.

Haven't had much time to get back to your questions, been pretty busy around here!

As for the location of the weld seam, I really don't think there is a specific orientation for the seam relative to the fins/fin can. If you look at the reference material and how the fin can is attached to the motor tube there are several holes around the periphery of the nozzle where the various bits are bolted and they are distributed symmetrically around the nozzle. The fin assembly could fit in one of dozens of possible radial positions relative to the motor casing. Beyond that, I don't think there was any specific requirement for the longitudinal weld seam to be in any particular position relative to the mounting holes on the nozzle assembly. So unless you are modelling a particular round and have data that indicates where the weld should be on that particular rocket just put it anywhere. That's what I did!

If you decide to recess the motor mount it wouldn't hurt to put some aluminum tape around the inside of the main tube. Recessed as little as you are talking about (1/2" - 3/4") it probably isn't needed, but it adds no weight and it looks cool! I set the motor tube flush with the main tube on my Smoke.

I've used steel wire on several models, but never one this small. Usually reserve the steel for larger mid-power to high power. On this Smoke I used Kevlar cord and elastic.

The finish did start with primer, though it was a "normal" Rusto primer as opposed to sandable or high build type. In the past I have applied the rivet/screw details after primer if they were small or delicate.

As for the plates on the nose cone, I believe that what you are seeing in the vid are the open holes where the plates have yet to be installed. If you look at the vid, when they are elevating the rocket to firing position the plates are in place and are white.

Mugs
 
I reviewed the footage, it shows them screw in (seems like the hexagonal insert type of screw based on the tool used) the top plate, presumable where the TiCl4 entered, but it looks (not clear while raising but shown clearly while loading rocket onto rail, presumably after prep work on the cone- after all, if they would do it they'd probably do it on the transportation thing) like the other two are still green.

In the aforementioned picture gallery there appear to be plates in the lower positions on the round in the film. There's even a rectangular plate in nike_smoke-0001.
 
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