Red Arrow Hobbies stealing money

Why does this hobby have so many shady Vendors?
The ones that are good are usually more than good, they are great, like Apogee and Balsa Machining Service just to name a couple, but there seems to be a lot of threads like this one where a Vendor takes the money and does not deliver the goods.
In my experience with my other hobbies, that does not seem to happen.
What gives?

Just an observation, not really anything useful to add.

TopRamen said:

Why does this hobby have so many shady Vendors?
The ones that are good are usually more than good, they are great, like Apogee and Balsa Machining Service just to name a couple, but there seems to be a lot of threads like this one where a Vendor takes the money and does not deliver the goods.
In my experience with my other hobbies, that does not seem to happen.
What gives?

Just an observation, not really anything useful to add.

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I think a lot is poor inventory management. You can go online and buy 10 of each motor, but only 1-5 of each are in stock. Then the waiting game begins. Order comes from supplier - instead of it filling your order, it gets sold at a launch, etc. Some vendors handle the launch vs. warehouse inventory tracking better than others. Others simply do not care.

richh said:

OK, I have to chime in to support Apogee.
First, they have a huge amount of info on their website and keep adding to it.
Second, I have never had problems with ordering or shipping.
Third, for skilled craftspeople who live in the electronics/woodworking world, there may be a point where you can "get it cheaper". But for my purposes, reliability is key. When I need all the parts, plus video instructions, for my students to build an avionics bay, I go with the Apogee kit. When I want to make sure the rail buttons come with t-nuts AND screws, I go with Apogee.

Are there items I get from other vendors? Well, The Motorman comes to my high power launches, so I buy my motors from him (no shipping), and sometimes I buy 1 thing from Hobby Lobby with my 40% coupon, or HobbyTown if I need it NOW. But for consistent, reliable, reasonably priced and support that cannot be topped, I have to go with Apogee.

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I agree this, he is a great shop- except reasonably priced. He's over the top, but nature of that style operation. I've gotten the same reliability from other vendors... it's just a matter of finding people you trust. If I email Scott at Loki or Mike at MAC, I typically get a phone call reply before I finish my beer.

DavidMcCann said:

I agree with all of this- except reasonably priced. He's over the top, but nature of that style operation. I've gotten the same reliability from other vendors... it's just a matter of finding people you trust. If I email Scott at Loki or Mike at MAC, I typically get a phone call reply before I finish my beer.

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Another thing about Apogee - one stop shopping. You can find just about everything you need there from LPR to HPR. That saves on my time and shipping as compared to multiple orders from various vendors. Not many other vendors come close to that. Perhaps Wildman.

Agreed that Apogee is the Estes of today. I mentioned this once before: Estes was a business man first and foremost. His rocketry interest was secondary. Van Milligan is a rocket man through and through. I can appreciate that and look past his cheesy gimmicks and writing style.

A good friend of mine runs a used car lot, auto repair shop and tire store. He's been quite successful with his little business and busts his ass rain or shine, six and sometimes seven days per week. One time he told me that a good measure of health for any small business was whether or not it had employees. I couldn't agree more regardless of the type of business involved. If one pays wages to employees, that cost becomes overhead which must be passed on to the consumer along with acquisition costs, shipping and everything else. It is what it is and ultimately, selling cheap is a recipe for failure.

cavecentral said:

I think a lot is poor inventory management. You can go online and buy 10 of each motor, but only 1-5 of each are in stock. Then the waiting game begins. Order comes from supplier - instead of it filling your order, it gets sold at a launch, etc. Some vendors handle the launch vs. warehouse inventory tracking better than others. Others simply do not care.

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To keep that quantity in each reload. Say AT has 6 different propellants in one case. Multiply by diferent cases and add other companys (CTI and or Loki) that is a lot of cash tied up. And as a vendor it is a guessing game on what will sell next month. If you want say 25 k550's I will order them. for you and ask for a deposit. But if you ask for something not in stock, let's say a N2000. No deposit unless you want to. And I will keep you updated on the status. Just my 2 cents as a small but up and coming vendor.

It is not hard to e mail a customer back if he ordered item x and the vendor sold out of them at yesterdays launch. and give the customer the option of wate or refund. Most dealers get the communication thing. Unfortunately not all of them.

I think a lot of flyers think the rocketry vendors have this huge warehouse full of rocketry items just waiting to be shipped. Its just not that way with all dealers or vendors. Like Bob said its kind of a guessing game as what flyers will order. Example we have over 100 12" chutes in stock last week a guy wanted a white one well we not no white chute made up. It didn't take long at all to make it up but that's now it goes once in awhile. But vendors should not take money from someone if they are out of stock on an item until order is shipped. Its up to vendor to keep good communication with the customer. I can see a vendor asking for a deposit on a high priced item if it needs to be ordered by the vendor. As far as RA they have been around for a long time not sure what's going on with them. Dave has always been a very nice guy and good for the hobby.

TopRamen said:

Why does this hobby have so many shady Vendors?
The ones that are good are usually more than good, they are great, like Apogee and Balsa Machining Service just to name a couple, but there seems to be a lot of threads like this one where a Vendor takes the money and does not deliver the goods.
In my experience with my other hobbies, that does not seem to happen.
What gives?

Just an observation, not really anything useful to add.

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Maybe it's something like this. BTW, I have no experience with RAH and am not targeting them. This is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.

Suppose a guy doesn't like his day job, but really does like rocketry. He thinks, "Man, I wish I could make my living doing rocketry." Then he thinks, "I know ... I'll sell stuff!"

He dives into business enthusiastically at first. But then one day he realizes, "Man, all I ever do is pack boxes and go to the post office." And this starts to seem as lousy as his day job was. And eventually all the fun goes out of it. But he still has this inventory, and he doesn't quite want to give up the business just yet, and....

Bat-mite said:

Maybe it's something like this. BTW, I have no experience with RAH and am not targeting them. This is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.

Suppose a guy doesn't like his day job, but really does like rocketry. He thinks, "Man, I wish I could make my living doing rocketry." Then he thinks, "I know ... I'll sell stuff!"

He dives into business enthusiastically at first. But then one day he realizes, "Man, all I ever do is pack boxes and go to the post office." And this starts to seem as lousy as his day job was. And eventually all the fun goes out of it. But he still has this inventory, and he doesn't quite want to give up the business just yet, and....

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As a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question... Absolutely! But as soon as the "Customer Service" suffers and the word gets around, you might as well give it up. A large corporation can overcome bad word of mouth, but a small "Mom & Pop" or "Cottage Industry" is typically doomed to failure.

tomsteve said:

I sent a message today about this little order. it doesn't seem like trying to call is worth it. not sure how long I should wait to put it in paypals hands.

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I was pretty surprised to see I got a reply from dave last night. I can understand the possibility of needing a storage unit for excess product, but was a little discouraged to read a payment had to be made to get into the storage unit to get the product I ordered. I hope big time dave can get the problems straightened out.

bob jablonski said:

To keep that quantity in each reload. Say AT has 6 different propellants in one case. Multiply by diferent cases and add other companys (CTI and or Loki) that is a lot of cash tied up. And as a vendor it is a guessing game on what will sell next month. If you want say 25 k550's I will order them. for you and ask for a deposit. But if you ask for something not in stock, let's say a N2000. No deposit unless you want to. And I will keep you updated on the status. Just my 2 cents as a small but up and coming vendor.

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I try to keep at least 6 of each 38mm reload in stock...I had 11 H550 dms motors in stock this morning, now I have 2. I also have the N2000 in stock(next to the N1000 and N3300 )

We can tell who has been a vendor longer. What I carry us multiple times more then last year. but not quite to the point of keeping N motors in stock. Thistime next year that may be different.

We can tell who has been a vendor longer. What I carry us multiple times more then last year. but not quite to the point of keeping N motors in stock. This time next year that may be different. Your model is one of the vendors I watch and learn from

bob jablonski said:

We can tell who has been a vendor longer. What I carry us multiple times more then last year. but not quite to the point of keeping N motors in stock. Thistime next year that may be different.

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I know how it is, I did rapid product adding this year since this is about to be my full time career.

I have to say, the growing number of serious vendors gives me hope the hobby is getting quite healthy.

DavidMcCann said:

I have to say, the growing number of serious vendors gives me hope the hobby is getting quite healthy.

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Yup, except there is going to be a limit. Hpr will not be attractive to those in geographical areas that can't support the launches. There will be the hardcore that build and are able to travel but it's easier if a compatible launch site is
located close to ones backyard. Kurt

Yep, I'm a member of the latter part of that statement. LPR/MPR is where I'll have my fun.

I've noticed Loki and AT paying more attention to F/G sized motors.

DavidMcCann said:

I've noticed Loki and AT paying more attention to F/G sized motors.

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E through H motors will always be the biggest sellers. As not every one can drop hundreds on one reload kit. But the good vendors try and keep every one happy, No matter if they fly 1/2A or M's No one is wrong.

Maybe we need to move the last few posts over to a new thread, I believe RAH has been sufficiently beaten at this point (at least until another TRFer gets shafted).

K&S was just as bad if not worse! Vendors like this need to just step away from doing business if they can't conduced business in a professional manner. Sad to hear the news, but happy the OP got his money back,

Buckeye said:

Another thing about Apogee - one stop shopping. You can find just about everything you need there from LPR to HPR. That saves on my time and shipping as compared to multiple orders from various vendors. Not many other vendors come close to that. Perhaps Wildman.

Agreed that Apogee is the Estes of today. I mentioned this once before: Estes was a business man first and foremost. His rocketry interest was secondary. Van Milligan is a rocket man through and through. I can appreciate that and look past his cheesy gimmicks and writing style.

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I think Apogee does offer outstanding service, but I'm selective what I buy from him. He prices on kits and other items, not all but a good percentage are above MFSR. Not sure why exactly? His shipping cost are also ridiculous on some items. He's always more. If you bought say a couple center rings you still are going to pay $7-9 to have them shipped. Why? It seems I can get the same rings shipped for a few dollars elsewhere. IDK guys I'm not cheap and I don't mind paying for quality items, but I also try to be practical.

When I build a rocket, I always try to throw an order for some part at apogee as payback for all the time and effort he put into those videos that helped me along the way. Say what you will about the pricing, the videos saved me from making some costly mistakes early on. Just trying to keep the sport's ecosystem healthy.

So why has this turned into a bashing Apogee post. Tim and his helpers do a great job. I have no problem paying a little extra for shipping. Apogee has great service and ships fast.

Apogee is a premium vendor. You pay a premium for faster service and extra features like their videos and newsletters. If you need it without any hassles, need it quick, want communication throughout the whole process, then Apogee is a good choice.

I have never had any second thought doing business there. I do shop around and I do spread my $$$ around so that just about every reliable vendor gets a piece. If I can get something cheaper somewhere else, I buy it there. But for items where the MSRP is the same for all vendors or Apogee has an exclusive item, Apogee gets the business. I recently purchased the Chute Release from them. The price is the same everywhere, so why not?

It's sort of counter productive to mention Apogess in some questionable fashion, in a thread that is bashing another vendor that has earned the bad press. I have gotten everything that I every ordered from RAH, but certainly not quickly enough to where I didn't have to buy the same product from someone else to get it in time. If you can't do it right, it's best not to do it.

I didn't mean to come across as bashing Apogee. I simply stated that he sells some of his items above MFSR and his shipping cost are high for items that could be placed in an envelope. I understand he spends time making videos and has a nice lay out on his website and product description is more detail and he offers a wide variety. I just don't feel obligated to spend my money there. I agree if his prices are the same elsewhere I'll gladly give him my business. I'm about the best deal and the best shipping rates. That's all I care about. I have no special interest in any vendor.

My intention was not to offend anyone and if have well I guess that we all have different views.

Anyway have s great day

He's a good guy, but lets not make him a saint here. I wouldn't bash him, but an honest evaluation is he's giving away some pretty basic info thats widely available here for free with a little searching. I wouldn't avoid him, but the cult marketing BS like " would you watch all my videos for free and then not support me? you're not that type of person are you?" is a little over the top. Guilting people into buying from you is just.... yea not my style.


The service is good, but I've gotten better from people charging much much less.

DavidMcCann said:

He's a good guy, but lets not make him a saint here. I wouldn't bash him, but an honest evaluation is he's giving away some pretty basic info thats widely available here for free with a little searching. I wouldn't avoid him, but the cult marketing BS like " would you watch all my videos for free and then not support me? you're not that type of person are you?" is a little over the top. Guilting people into buying from you is just.... yea not my style.


The service is good, but I've gotten better from people charging much much less.

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I feel what you wrote is an honest assessment.

+1 for Chris' Rocket Supplies, LLC
www.csrocketry.com

A live web inventory is the way to go.

TA