Red Arrow Hobbies stealing money

I wish a shake up at RAH would occur as my Saturn V was just a damn mess. I'm pretty pissed with the poor quality of this kit to say the least! The wrap around fin guide was worthless off setting my fins, three out of four fin shrouds were warped and I trashed them, the wraps were not cut to shape for the lower end between the fins as photos and instructions had shown, the resin detail pieces are adequate but not very detailed for my expectations for this kit, I trashed the second to third stage two piece adapter as it gave me a 3/16" inch gap, the CM would not fit in the body tube so I got a more detailed piece from Shapeways along with the LES tower.
So all in all I'm just bloody ticked at the sloppy quality for this $449.00 model.

JJSR said:

https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

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Aaaaaannnnnd we'll get right on that

Hi guys. Sorry to make this my first post here on TRF, but I can also confirm that dealing with Red Arrow Hobbies should be avoided at all costs.
Over a month after my order was placed, nothing shipped, not one email, and the only phone calls have been placed by me. I've been 100% unsuccessful in getting anywhere, so I'm pursuing recovering my $$$ through PayPal. Sad

roc_boy said:

Hi guys. Sorry to make this my first post here on TRF, but I can also confirm that dealing with Red Arrow Hobbies should be avoided at all costs.
Over a month after my order was placed, nothing shipped, not one email, and the only phone calls have been placed by me. I've been 100% unsuccessful in getting anywhere, so I'm pursuing recovering my $$$ through PayPal. Sad

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Sorry to hear that and welcome. I had also asked Dave if he could send me a copy of the written instructions to me of Sheri's Saturn V as I had misplaced the ones I originally had but never got an answer from him. Only because of another great person on TRF upon hearing my plight did HE ship me a copy set of the instructions. THAT was service! Something which lacks at RAH.

I have to wonder what percentage of his customers are regular visitors of TRF and of those how many read these threads that pop up from time to time? I guess he's still got enough customers to stay in business that he hasn't pissed off... yet.

All the business I have ever done with RAH was cash and carry... best keep it that way...

rfjustin said:

All the business I have ever done with RAH was cash and carry... best keep it that way...

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At first I was told, "RAH is okay, you just have to give them enough time to respond to orders".
Then it turned into, "You really have to call Dave, but if you do that you'll be golden".

In this thread we've seen that neither one of those really results in good service from them and they'll still take your money and not deliver product.

Now we're told showing up with cash is the best way to ensure you can actually get what you pay for. Interesting. Surely there's no way in the future we'll see a thread about someone going to RAH's counter and giving Dave cash, only to be told he'll ship the items when he gets them in stock - and then he never does. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Dave attends launches. Buy from him at a launch hand him money with product in your hand. I am sure that's what Justin is saying.

Correct sir... I meant cash and carry AT A LAUNCH...

rfjustin said:

Correct sir... I meant cash and carry AT A LAUNCH...

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That's what I read and understood in your first post

rfjustin said:

All the business I have ever done with RAH was cash and carry... best keep it that way...

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Launch sales seem to be his only reliable business practice. Not sure how much he travels, but he probably doesn't attend more than a handful per year due to winter-only flying in Michiana area. At launches, he's got competition parked right next to him on vendor row. Personally, I avoid buying stuff (especially motors) that look like they have thermal-cycled a few years over in weathered cardboard boxes in the back of a minivan.

RAH is probably in a death spiral.

Buckeye said:

Personally, I avoid buying stuff (especially motors) that look like they have thermal-cycled a few years over in weathered cardboard boxes in the back of a minivan.

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Not sure what all vendors were involved (Red Glare or URRF 5+ years ago). I remember seeing tables out with Estes motor packs in the sun. There was condensation on the inside of the packages leeched from the cardboard (tubes or the packaging). I steered clear BP motors I see sold out on tables after seeing this.

Most of my purchases of BP motors were made online or on clearance at Walmart and other stores. So I have no clue how they were handled / stored before they got to me.

I ordered on Sept. 18th and never got a shipping confirmation. I called, e-mailed, and Facebook messaged multiple times with no response. Gave him a chance to process the refund and not take whatever penalty paypal applies to this situation.
Started the dispute process with paypal but was dumb and did it as a guest checkout so no transaction ID.
Went ahead and emailed them to get a dispute started. Hopefully this isn't too painful.

Don't buy from RAH, even at a launch. Why support the bad business practices when there are other vendors out there.

kclo4 said:

Don't buy from RAH, even at a launch. Why support the bad business practices when there are other vendors out there.

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True. I have seen him at a few launches and walked right past his table to another vendor, precisely because of my bad experience and all the other negative feedback. So, even his "cash and carry" business is in jeopardy.

kclo4 said:

I ordered on Sept. 18th and never got a shipping confirmation. I called, e-mailed, and Facebook messaged multiple times with no response. Gave him a chance to process the refund and not take whatever penalty paypal applies to this situation.
Started the dispute process with paypal but was dumb and did it as a guest checkout so no transaction ID.
Went ahead and emailed them to get a dispute started. Hopefully this isn't too painful.

Don't buy from RAH, even at a launch. Why support the bad business practices when there are other vendors out there.

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I did the same thing. Was easy enough to get the dispute going. You have the transaction number of the transaction. that's all they need, that and the vendor, and the amount..

The real PITA was getting my Paypal info corrected, and trying to find out HOW to make a dispute.. one of those 'circular loops': "In order to start a dispute, you need to enter your info, No transactions found, please e-mail us to further your inquiry, sorry the information you entered is invalid, please update your info.." There is no simple way to enter just a Paypal transaction # to start a claim. Took me an hour of back & forth and two phone calls.. (And getting a the phone number to call was also a bit of a pain..) Don't e-mail, call them!

I just wanted put out there my experiences purchasing from Red Arrow Hobbies, since there seems to be a lot of vendor bashing of RAH going on. Unfortunately this seems to take place a lot on this forum. I wonder how many of the bashers have actually purchased from RAH or are just chiming in because they read the first post and all want to get in on the bashing action even though they have no purchase history with RAH? I have purchased many 54mm to 75mm 4 grain and 98 mm 4 and 6 grain high power Aerotech motors from RAH over the last three to five years and never had a problem. And yes at times I have paid Dave at RAH upfront for him to order some of these from Aerotech and they were always delivered without a hitch. RAH always has giving me very good pricing. I find Dave who owns RAH to be an honest person and I have not had any issues emailing him or calling him to get my questions answered. The last motors I purchased were in the May/June 2016 time frame as this was the end of my launching season so I cannot account for motor purchases in the last few months, but I did order/purchase a Saturn V 1:48 scale rocket kit ($400+) around August 1st, 2016 and yes it was delivered in about 2 to 3 weeks which is clearly stated on his website since these are extremely limited run custom kits and takes time to put together so that was not a problem for me.
Not sure what happened to the originator of this post, there is absolutely no excuse for bad customer service and/or to not communicate honestly with your customers and I am not excusing any of this if this was the case. But to be fair to RAH we are only hearing one side. I'm thinking could also be a situation where maybe RAH when they received the order from the customer went ahead and placed the order with Aerotech and when customer called to cancel order the order was already in process and if RAH would refund the customer at that point would be stuck with the motors and since August is between launching seasons in the Midwest cash flow is probably a little tight. Knowing Dave at RAH from my purchase history with him, it's hard for me to believe he set out to just steal this guys money, I'm sure there is more to the story. Maybe some unforeseen personal situation took place? When you look to purchase 98 mm 4 and 6 grain motors very few vendors have much selection in stock because they are very expensive for a vendor to stock, especially since there are a lot of reload choices, really what vendor is going to stock a lot of these? Usually you have to custom order these and wait for Aerotech or CTI to build and ship which can take 3 to 6 weeks or longer in some cases. Is it fair to place an order with a vendor and after a vendor orders these you try to cancel because you are getting impatient with delivery sticking the vendor with the expensive inventory? I'm not saying that is the case in this situation but there are two sides to every story. How many Black Saturday sales turn into waiting for several months to get your reloads, I know I have waited 3 months in one case ( and it wasn't from RAH it was from another midwest rocket dealer). That reminds me, Hey for all you forum guys (and gals) who enjoy vendor bashing over late deliveries on motors and kits come to the forum around the February/March time frame as there are always lots of posts about how this and that vendor is screwing someone who ordered a Black Saturday sale motor and/or kit and still didn’t get delivery yet.

Steven said:

I wish a shake up at RAH would occur as my Saturn V was just a damn mess. I'm pretty pissed with the piss poor quality of this kit to say the least! The wrap around fin guide was worthless off setting my fins, three out of four fin shrouds were warped and I trashed them, the wraps were not cut to shape for the lower end between the fins as photos and instructions had shown, the resin detail pieces are adequate but not very detailed for my expectations for this kit, I trashed the second to third stage two piece adapter as it gave me a 3/16" inch gap, the CM would not fit in the body tube so I got a more detailed piece from Shapeways along with the LES tower.
So all in all I'm just bloody ticked at the sloppy quality for this $449.00 model.

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Hello Steven, sorry to hear you had a completely different experience with your Saturn V kit that I had. I just purchased this kit from RAH this last August. I thought it was a pretty nice kit. I had very detailed instructions included in my kit. My Apollo module, LES, fin shrouds, and really all the resin castings seem to be quite good quality and detailed. I thought I would pass this on in case it may be helpful, the resin shrouds ( and other resin parts) can get a little warped from transit and storage, but can be easily made to fit by applying a little heat (hot water, heat gun, or microwave for a few seconds). Some decals and wraps need to be cut or trimmed a little, but this usually is common in many scale kits I've put together. All in all I think it is a very nice detailed well thought out kit, the only changes I would make is to use FW fiberglass for the airframe tubes and motor tubes, and G10 for the fins and centering rings instead of the plywood in case it lands on wet ground, snow mud, or a puddle, but I'm sure would add some cost and I'm just a fiberglass type guy, but the kit description and photos look exactly like what I received. Good luck on your build.

John, How is it that the two most commonly "bashed" vendors are Red Arrow Hobbies and Rocketry Warehouse? If you have read many of the posts in this thread most (myself included) have received dismal service via RAH online purchases, I my case it took 3 months, multiple phone calls, 3 separate shipments, 1 additional shipment that was the wrong product to me, which cost me to correct (a 38mm RAS forward closure and UDDT, if it was to a fellow TRF'er your welcome) as they sent the address with my last shipment but nothing other than the person it was going to, so I paid shipping to the correct individual. Dave may be a "great guy" to deal with in person, but his business could be so much more if 1) communications were better, 2) inventory control were better (live inventory, or at least as close as possible). As has been noted before in this thread drop shipping from the manufacturer is one thing, but taking money for the product and not informing the customer that it is not even in stock or his inventory of that item is back ordered from the manufacturer is not good business ethics. All of these threads come down to the people who have been taken for a ride on the RAH express, sucked in by the lower prices he offers on some items (mainly motor hardware) expecting to receive the products ordered in a reasonable amount of time, then having to chase RAH down and hound them for the product, or turn to PayPal and file a dispute. We have other vendors to buy from and so we shall, RAH has probably the best prices on the AT RMS 18/20, 24/40, 24/60, 29/40-120 hardware, for $3-4 dollars more per casing (if I preorder) I can buy the same product from someone else who has a stellar reputation for service or I can buy now and it cost me a bit more and KNOW that my product will be shipped in a timely manner OR the vendor will contact me ASAP (same day and next day in the case of BMS and Apogee) and notify me of an issue and either refund my money or give me the option of waiting, if I choose to wait they will send the 2nd shipment to me without charging additional shipping, that to me is good service. RANT OFF.

Edit: Quite a few of the posts are not actually about RAH at all, some are about other vendors.

I wasn't going to jump on this thread, but I would hate for anyone to accidentally purchase from this vendor.

RAH was doing a clearance thing, so I ordered some tube, a NC, and a crayon body. I got the tube & crayon in good time, no NC.

I checked my order, then emailed about the NC. They ran out, will issue a partial refund. I emailed to remind them a few weeks later. And again a while after.

I opened a PP dispute, which I bump about once a week. No responses. I'm not out much cash, nor am I particularly upset.

But it doesn't matter how good the deal is if you never get the goods.

I was hoping RAH had gotten better with their service and communications.
I recently placed an order for the LOC Warlock kit and a discounted motor retainer...
It's been several days, nothing from them but I did send an email after reading all of this thread...
PayPal was used, thankfull for that.

I spoke to Dave a few years back and he wasn't a jolly person. It was as if someone was making him work these products. ..

jolevich said:

I wonder how many of the bashers have actually purchased from RAH or are just chiming in because they read the first post and all want to get in on the bashing action even though they have no purchase history with RAH?

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I have ordered several times from RAH in the past, and my most recent was so bad that I vowed never to order from them again and to happily tell my story so that others could avoid bad service. Since then I've heard multiple stories that are so much worse than mine. He clearly doesn't care about customer satisfaction. That's a strange way to do business.

I'm always confused when 20 people say "I had terrible service from Vendor X" Then one guy pops in all indignant and says "You're all unfair bashers, I had great service there"


You do realize that's totally irrelevant, right? It's like saying "I saw Hitler help an old lady across the street, you're blowing this whole holocaust thing out of proportion, haters"

DavidMcCann said:

I'm always confused when 20 people say "I had terrible service from Vendor X" Then one guy pops in all indignant and says "You're all unfair bashers, I had great service there"


You do realize that's totally irrelevant, right? It's like saying "I saw Hitler help an old lady across the street, you're blowing this whole holocaust thing out of proportion, haters"

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Ditto.
I serviced hundreds of customers for 22 years and there were only 2 persons I spoke up to. I didn't raise my voice or get ugly but I spoke my peace, made a valid point and they listened.

I started selling furniture at 19 and was taught about people.
Thank you Don W..

Last time I called RAH I spoke to a woman. She was helpful and fair.

Our Club is in Memphis, TN. It's an hour drive for me, half of which is staying out of the way of idiots that drive as fast as it takes to pass the next set of tail lights!

DavidMcCann said:

I'm always confused when 20 people say "I had terrible service from Vendor X" Then one guy pops in all indignant and says "You're all unfair bashers, I had great service there"


You do realize that's totally irrelevant, right? It's like saying "I saw Hitler help an old lady across the street, you're blowing this whole holocaust thing out of proportion, haters"

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Exactly.

This "basher" did indeed order from RAH, and he's had about 150 of my dollars tied up for 6 weeks now.

I allowed him more than a month to ship me ANYTHING, just SOMETHING from my order before I finally called and requested he cancel the entire order. Prior to that - after the first phone call when he said he didn't have it all in stock - I called and requested that he ship what he had and refund the remainder. I did that 3 times. Each time, he appeared to understand my request. To this day, I have not received any part of that order, my PayPal account has received no refund, and I still have yet to receive the first email or phone call from RAH.

I don't know Dave, never met him, and I hold no ill will toward him other than his unacceptable business practices -

(1) You take funds as soon as the order is placed, regardless of whether you have stock or not. It's one thing if you're clear with customers that you run real-time inventory and it can take up to xx days for your order to ship. But for me to be okay with you taking my money and me having no earthly idea when (or even if) I'll ever see what I ordered? Not okay.

(2) C'mon man, communicate. Talk to us. Yeah, I know, I understand, one-man operation. But, for real? 6 weeks gone by and you haven't had time to compose one email, make one phone call, box up a single item and stick it in the mail? Any one of these could indicate good faith to a customer. Just DO SOMETHING. That is, provided you're honest....

(3) How hard is it to be honest? When a customer calls and explicitly requests for you to ship what you have and refund the rest, and you agree to do it? On three separate occasions? At this point, I really do hate to say it because I try to believe in the inherent good in people, but I'm just not optimistic of an acceptable outcome of this transaction.

I don't know what his issues are, but beyond business transactions, it's none of my business. I wouldn't recommend anyone get anywhere near RAH or have anything to do with RAH unless the situation changes.

Mind-blowing.

DavidMcCann said:

I'm always confused when 20 people say "I had terrible service from Vendor X" Then one guy pops in all indignant and says "You're all unfair bashers, I had great service there"


You do realize that's totally irrelevant, right? It's like saying "I saw Hitler help an old lady across the street, you're blowing this whole holocaust thing out of proportion, haters"

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+1

This time it took until post #107 for the indignant supporter to jump in. That says something.

Bat-mite said:

Mind-blowing.

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More mind blowing is that this story repeats itself month after month after month. C'mon people, you are all not forums newbies, and you should have seen the past writings on the wall. Why do you think your next order will be "different?"

I learned my lesson 10 years ago. I feel sorry for those of you getting screwed, but a lot of the pain is now self-inflicted. That $3 savings on RAH website? Yep, too good to be true.

Yeah, I've partially got myself to blame - I didn't browse through this vendors review area first. I'm just back into rocketry since back around 1998-2000. I thought I recognized the Red Arrow name from before and figured RAH was a reputable vendor. I've learned a lesson.

Buckeye said:

More mind blowing is that this story repeats itself month after month after month. C'mon people, you are all not forums newbies, and you should have seen the past writings on the wall. Why do you think your next order will be "different?"

I learned my lesson 10 years ago. I feel sorry for those of you getting screwed, but a lot of the pain is now self-inflicted. That $3 savings on RAH website? Yep, too good to be true.

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The same cognitive dissonance surrounded Rocketry Warehouse. Perhaps it's our failing in that we still have hope?