Red Arrow Hobbies stealing money

Buckeye said:

More mind blowing is that this story repeats itself month after month after month. C'mon people, you are all not forums newbies, and you should have seen the past writings on the wall. Why do you think your next order will be "different?"

I learned my lesson 10 years ago. I feel sorry for those of you getting screwed, but a lot of the pain is now self-inflicted. That $3 savings on RAH website? Yep, too good to be true.

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And furthermore, why isn't the proprietor of Red Arrow Hobbies in prison? Isn't taking people's money without delivering a product in return generally illegal?

tomsteve said:

I was pretty surprised to see I got a reply from dave last night. I can understand the possibility of needing a storage unit for excess product, but was a little discouraged to read a payment had to be made to get into the storage unit to get the product I ordered. I hope big time dave can get the problems straightened out.

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welp, got that reply on the 1st. now 12th.
its pretty sad to have to open a claim with paypal over 12 or so dollars.

I ordered my launch lugs and even a cluster motor mount from uncle mikes rocket shack on Tuesday. it came in the mail today.

CoyoteNumber2 said:

And furthermore, why isn't the proprietor of Red Arrow Hobbies in prison? Isn't taking people's money without delivering a product in return generally illegal?

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Someone would have to press charges. I think the rocketry community is extremely reluctant to take such action. Our hobby gets enough bad press as it is.

Bat-mite said:

Someone would have to press charges. I think the rocketry community is extremely reluctant to take such action. Our hobby gets enough bad press as it is.

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Not just that, It's no simple thing to do. Sure it's possible, but the time and effort is pretty ridiculous.

Toss in 'Discount Hobbies' from about 15yrs ago..

I am not going to get involved beyond saying there is more to this than what is known. And for the record, I'm not referring to anyone's complaints on here, or the practices occurring, just to the person being complained about.

I will say this, as I've watched n read all.
I don't have income to purchase much, but I would purchase from RAH.
I haven't yet, but at some point I will...when funds are available.
That being said, it would be rockets that I would purchase from RAH.
Most everyone knows that there is nothing in my area as far as clubs n such, so I'm on my own.
So I am happy doing low power rockets, and collection for my son's future.
To me, a business transaction is personal with the entity that I choose.
I keep it personal, and when deemed necessary, I will give a thumbs up.
But I will NEVER approve of saying any one single retailer is not worth buying from, Period.
Every order is personal, and private...and needs to be kept that way.
We are hear to share knowledge and grow, not to tear down the few in our hobby that support it.
I am not defending, nor intruding upon opinions, just giving mine.
And I pray that each and everyone in our hobby can expect problems with some things, and get past it in their own way.
It's life, it's fun, and it's more fun when it's not burdened with negativity.
If something's price is too good to be true, than it probably is. Keep that in mind, and be prepared for the worst.
Don't be a target, be a recipient.

In juxtaposition to the above, I am very thankful when people help me avoid vendors that might take my hard-earned money and not deem me worthy of even the simplest communication as to the status of my order. Thank you all!

Woody's Workshop said:

I will say this, as I've watched n read all.
I don't have income to purchase much, but I would purchase from RAH.
I haven't yet, but at some point I will...when funds are available.
That being said, it would be rockets that I would purchase from RAH.
Most everyone knows that there is nothing in my area as far as clubs n such, so I'm on my own.
So I am happy doing low power rockets, and collection for my son's future.
To me, a business transaction is personal with the entity that I choose.
I keep it personal, and when deemed necessary, I will give a thumbs up.
But I will NEVER approve of saying any one single retailer is not worth buying from, Period.
Every order is personal, and private...and needs to be kept that way.
We are hear to share knowledge and grow, not to tear down the few in our hobby that support it.
I am not defending, nor intruding upon opinions, just giving mine.
And I pray that each and everyone in our hobby can expect problems with some things, and get past it in their own way.
It's life, it's fun, and it's more fun when it's not burdened with negativity.
If something's price is too good to be true, than it probably is. Keep that in mind, and be prepared for the worst.
Don't be a target, be a recipient.

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This seems a bit like saying, "The few guys in this park that are mugging people aren't so bad. I'd still go up and talk to them. It's a small park, and there are so few people here, it's wrong to exclude anyone."

Like Bat-mite said, I'm more than happy to warn people away from RAH. Decisions have consequences and if he keeps deciding to take people's money, not deliver their order, and doesn't communicate at all, he'll be considered a thief to many of his potential customers.

It has become non-PC these days to impugn anyone for anything.

In recent years, I've learned to have a little more patience where, in the past I've been quicker to criticize. From the guy who just cut you off in traffic, to the clerk who has seems to have an attitude at everyone "for no reason". Everyone out there is dealing with something that we know nothing about. Try to frame it; it's not all about me. (Yeah, my wife's a therapist, so she's had some effect on me ).

That being said, I hope the option has been considered like what I've seen in the the communities of the RC boards. Let people know there is an issue. Say only as much as you're comfortable with, as your personal life actually is none of our business - and ask folks to be patient with you, and maybe even help where they're able. This boils back down to the core concept of communication. Sure seems to be a better option than burning those in the community that otherwise might be helping.

Whatever. I do hope all ends up okay with Dave, there's more to life than our hobby

tbonerocketeer said:

I am not going to get involved beyond saying there is more to this than what is known. And for the record, I'm not referring to anyone's complaints on here, or the practices occurring, just to the person being complained about.

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Well, that is an interesting post, but doesn't really shed any light on the situation. You seem to know something that you won't, or can't, share. Regardless, there are a good number of people who have problems dealing with this vendor. We have a lot of complaints about a vendor who is taking orders and isn't delivering in a timely manner. That is not a good business practice.

Zeus-cat said:

Well, that is an interesting post, but doesn't really shed any light on the situation. You seem to know something that you won't, or can't, share. Regardless, there are a good number of people who have problems dealing with this vendor. We have a lot of complaints about a vendor who is taking orders and isn't delivering in a timely manner. That is not a good business practice.

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Correct, not my place to comment. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1419079791443385&id=159554584062585

tbonerocketeer said:

Correct, not my place to comment. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1419079791443385&id=159554584062585

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https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-law-is-an-ass.html

Good link and well worth reading.

tbonerocketeer said:

Correct, not my place to comment. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1419079791443385&id=159554584062585

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The law is the law. One's personal feelings on it don't change that, nor give one license to take money from a customer provided in good faith and use it in an manner not in keeping with legal business practices. Don't like the law? Work to change it or move to where it's different.

One can infer several different things with this information. Not least of which is that rocket customer's money may be going up in smoke, and not the smoke created by burning APCP. Maybe smoke and mirrors......

Isn't using the money of a new customer to finance the purchase of goods to deliver to a previous customer a Ponzi scheme? Sure is what seems to be happening with lots of these stories that keep popping up.

jolevich said:

Hello Steven, sorry to hear you had a completely different experience with your Saturn V kit that I had. I just purchased this kit from RAH this last August. I thought it was a pretty nice kit. I had very detailed instructions included in my kit. My Apollo module, LES, fin shrouds, and really all the resin castings seem to be quite good quality and detailed. I thought I would pass this on in case it may be helpful, the resin shrouds ( and other resin parts) can get a little warped from transit and storage, but can be easily made to fit by applying a little heat (hot water, heat gun, or microwave for a few seconds). Some decals and wraps need to be cut or trimmed a little, but this usually is common in many scale kits I've put together. All in all I think it is a very nice detailed well thought out kit, the only changes I would make is to use FW fiberglass for the airframe tubes and motor tubes, and G10 for the fins and centering rings instead of the plywood in case it lands on wet ground, snow mud, or a puddle, but I'm sure would add some cost and I'm just a fiberglass type guy, but the kit description and photos look exactly like what I received. Good luck on your build.

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In my ongoing build on this Saturn V, I had stated using a heat gun that I use to shrink the iron on covering for my RC aircraft. It got them "looking" better but the fit still left a lot to be desired. The CM wouldn't even fit in the SM tube for crying out loud. The second to third stage adapter was a two piece unit which left me with a 3/16th" gap. I never got the tower support ring either so I'll have to manufacture one from scratch. Thank you very much for the sending of your luck!

This thread has turned into a bit of an Ethics debate..

And Ethics is like hair: Some have it, some don't. Some have it in abundance and wear it well, some don't. And for some, it's a shady shade of grey..

dr wogz said:

This thread has turned into a bit of an Ethics debate..

And Ethics is like hair: Some have it, some don't. Some have it in abundance and wear it well, some don't. And for some, it's a shady shade of grey..

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tbonerocketeer said:

Correct, not my place to comment. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1419079791443385&id=159554584062585

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Well that really puts a new light on the situation. Sorry to hear he is having so many problems.

I did not have sexual relations with that woman!

Ooops, wrong thread!

If that's the case, then he needs to just close up shop. His decision to involve himself with a substance of questionable legality (though I think it is stupid that it is still illegal for personal use) is his business, but he shouldn't drag others' money into it.

[video=youtube;BsB6Td9vw6k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsB6Td9vw6k[/video]

It actually really sucks that Dave is having these problems. Laws say something is legal then somebody decides it's not out of ignorance or just plain malice? Sound familiar? Could happen to any one of us who are into rocketry, pyrotechnics, and even firearms.

My problem is looking at Daves Facebook and he is clearly ******* around on the internet all the time sharing political BS and such. He is not currently locked up with no internet access. In that, there is no excuse for the piss poor communication. He is not making announcements to slow deliveries, not keeping up with inventory, organizing pre-buy type orders with expected longer lead times, running go fund me campaigns to try to see if the community will help him out, etc.

I read Dave's post and have no sympathy for him. He may or may not have broken any laws with the pot but -
1) It doesn't excuse his taking money for something he doesn't have and not being up front about his current inventory
2) It doesn't excuse his little or no communication to his customers about their orders. If he can take orders, he can talk to his customers about them. Don't tell me your legal troubles keep you from communicating but don't keep you from running credit card numbers.
3) It doesn't excuse the poor service he's provided for far longer than his recent legal troubles. He can pretend this stuff is the reason he's having issues with customers, which will placate the recent customers maybe, but this thread alone has shown he's screwed people over a lot longer than he's been in trouble for growing pot.

Banzai88 said:

The same cognitive dissonance surrounded Rocketry Warehouse. Perhaps it's our failing in that we still have hope?

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RW had a unique, scarce product with their fiberglass. RAH doesn't offer much that can't be found more reliably at the dozens of other reputable vendors.

Buckeye said:

RW had a unique, scarce product with their fiberglass. RAH doesn't offer much that can't be found more reliably at the dozens of other reputable vendors.

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I love the RAH builder's assortment- have purchased 3 of them over the years since I've been a BAR, and with rings and cones from RAH and others have recreated 60+ LPR that I had or wished I had back when i was a kid. Others sell similar kits, but RAH had great bang for the buck.

A few years back, it seemed there was no room for more vendors / resellers in the market. Since then 4-5 came up (maybe more). All are doing well and have good web presence - some specialized, others are growing to one stop shops. Given that, I think the underperformers will take a hit and either need to improve or close up shop.

No need for me to call try to call out the good and the bad - peoples' opinions vary, and my exposer to some vendors is limited. I think time will sort it out soon enough unless the market can support more vendors that I believe it does.

As soon as Dave gives back my money I promise to never attempt to make a purchase there (RAH) EVER.

I'm thankful I used Paypal! I'm sure they are on to him now...
Buyer protection can be usefull.

I've got one more LOC kit I want then I'll collect a couple of MacPerformance kits.

He also needs to fix the quality issues in regards to some of the kits from Sheri's line!

Steven said:

In my ongoing build on this Saturn V, I had stated using a heat gun that I use to shrink the iron on covering for my RC aircraft. It got them "looking" better but the fit still left a lot to be desired. The CM wouldn't even fit in the SM tube for crying out loud. The second to third stage adapter was a two piece unit which left me with a 3/16th" gap. I never got the tower support ring either so I'll have to manufacture one from scratch. Thank you very much for the sending of your luck!

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I'm not saying it was the best most detailed kit I ever received; there definitely is room for improvement. But I'm thinking saying it was complete rubbish is not a fair description at least from the kit I received. I wasn't expecting a $1,000+ museum quality build. This was a $400 seven foot rocket Saturn V which no one else makes. There are a lot of sources for command modules, LES and such if a much higher detailed rocket is what you are wanting to build, these are available from sources such as from https://www.realspacemodels.com/. , and OZmods ( check out Ebay for Ozmods for unbelievable Saturn V 1/48 scale detailed parts). But for a rocket I am planning on launching (versus being displayed in a museum) the CM and LES where plenty quality and detailed for my use. Maybe I got lucky, but my resin parts were not bad at all and definitely workable. The command module did need quite some trimming/sanding to make it fit the tube but I have a lathe and some other tools at my disposal so wasn't all that bad for me. I'm glad the CM was larger and not smaller then the tube. Maybe I'm just used to this because I usually build all fiberglass rockets and most of the larger fiberglass kits always take a lot of sanding and machining such as putting the tubes in a lathe for re-cutting of the tube to make them square so the parts fit together good, especially when you are talking larger 6 inch diameters, and especially 8 to 12 inch diameters the nose cone shoulders and avbay couplings almost never seem to fit without some sanding and/or trimming on a lathe. Really I know where you are coming from I wish all the larger kits fit together perfectly especially when you get up to the $400+ area. Didn't mean to sound like a know it all or gloating about my kit versus your kit. I'm just trying to be fair about the analysis of the kit I received.