You ever get a chance to check out the drain sock?
Glassing my first tube
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TopRamen
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The trick to glassing your first tube is to "Go For IT!!!"
You've done your research, and you've got all the support of everyone here at the forum, so you are in good shape.
For me, it took doing a small practice section, and then I was like, "Wow, I'de been procrastinating over that?"
Glassing things is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling aspects of the hobby for me now, and beats the crap out of papering things.
I just did a shovel handle 5 days ago in 9oz. cloth. I used it for the first time yesterday, and it is unlike any other shovel I have ever used!
It is even more rigid than the fiberglass shovels you buy at the store!!! Why do they even make those bendy fiberglass handle shovels?
Why not glass a wooden shovel for a handle that has no bendy at all? I could flip a small car over with that thing if I was not in a bad way with my back, but that said, because of my bad back this shovel is extra awesome. It does the work for me now, as there is no struggling when it bends, as it does not bend at all. I simply know what is going on where I am digging, and it transfers all that data via feel to my hands.
It's like handling 5'6" St. Croix one-piece stream and brook trout rod now.
Granted, I tuned up the metal part a bit too, but I can send it through a 1" root with zero effort, as it's light weight allows me to handle it deftly and with precision, saving my strength for the occasional thrust. It's like weilding a javelin or some magical shovel. It's on loan from my Mom, who is kinda' old to be using it anyhow, but when Igive it back to her she may want to have a go at a little enjoyable shoveling with it.
Oh, yeah, my point, just start glassing things, even if you are not going to fly them, as you only get better at it by practicing.
You've done your research, and you've got all the support of everyone here at the forum, so you are in good shape.
For me, it took doing a small practice section, and then I was like, "Wow, I'de been procrastinating over that?"
Glassing things is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling aspects of the hobby for me now, and beats the crap out of papering things.
I just did a shovel handle 5 days ago in 9oz. cloth. I used it for the first time yesterday, and it is unlike any other shovel I have ever used!
It is even more rigid than the fiberglass shovels you buy at the store!!! Why do they even make those bendy fiberglass handle shovels?
Why not glass a wooden shovel for a handle that has no bendy at all? I could flip a small car over with that thing if I was not in a bad way with my back, but that said, because of my bad back this shovel is extra awesome. It does the work for me now, as there is no struggling when it bends, as it does not bend at all. I simply know what is going on where I am digging, and it transfers all that data via feel to my hands.
It's like handling 5'6" St. Croix one-piece stream and brook trout rod now.
Granted, I tuned up the metal part a bit too, but I can send it through a 1" root with zero effort, as it's light weight allows me to handle it deftly and with precision, saving my strength for the occasional thrust. It's like weilding a javelin or some magical shovel. It's on loan from my Mom, who is kinda' old to be using it anyhow, but when Igive it back to her she may want to have a go at a little enjoyable shoveling with it.
Oh, yeah, my point, just start glassing things, even if you are not going to fly them, as you only get better at it by practicing.
BDB
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I just ordered the supplies from 3 different suppliers. Probably paid too much in shipping, but I think I'm getting exactly what I want. Thanks to everyone for the input. Here is what I just bought.
fiberglass fabric
3 yards of 50" 4 oz E-glass: https://www.fibreglast.com/product/4_...erglass_Fabric
5 yards of 38" 2 oz E-glass: https://www.fibreglast.com/product/2_...erglass_Fabric
laminating epoxy
1/2 gallon of 635 epoxy (medium hardener): https://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html
3:1 pump set: https://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html (scroll down the page)
peel ply
3 yards of teflon coated release fabric: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vb7025.php?clickkey=131669
fiberglass fabric
3 yards of 50" 4 oz E-glass: https://www.fibreglast.com/product/4_...erglass_Fabric
5 yards of 38" 2 oz E-glass: https://www.fibreglast.com/product/2_...erglass_Fabric
laminating epoxy
1/2 gallon of 635 epoxy (medium hardener): https://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html
3:1 pump set: https://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html (scroll down the page)
peel ply
3 yards of teflon coated release fabric: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vb7025.php?clickkey=131669
BDB
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I looked at it at Lowes tonight. That stuff is nothing like fiberglass, but it does resemble the pictures on the GLR website. Next time I place an order from GLR (probably in the next week or so), I'll pick up one of the socks for comparison. If it's the same stuff, you can't beat the price at Lowes: 100 ft for $25.
The easy-glas/drain sock might be a great way to finish my upcoming blue tube project that doesn't really need structural reinforcement, but will need something to fill the tube spirals.
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Did you remove the glassine layer first? Either by sanding or peeling it off? That's an often unmentioned first step. The only test pieces that I ever had do that were the first ones that I did not remove the glassine layer and the resin did not soak through.
A lot of you are making this look a lot harder than it really seems. All you need is cloth, resin, and peel ply. The mandrel (which is the tube you are glassing) is already provided for you.
4oz glass is perfect and thats all you need. You dont need a veil layer.
The peel ply is needed to smooth everything out. My personal favorite is the teflon peel ply you can get from Applied Vehicle Technologies. Its at $6.50 you cant beat it. Other peel plys are difficult to remove and wet out.
Your resin of choice is fine and as for hardener I recommend you get the 60 minute hardener. One thing I've learned is that you want as much time as possible. You dont want it to set up on you too quickly.
Get yourself a roller, no brush. Its a lot faster to laminate and helps layer the fibers flatter. Dont get foam though it produces lots of air bubbles.
Get an L angle bar to mark a straight line to roll your glass on and it just makes it so easy.
Dont forget safety, get some nitrile gloves.
Hope this eases your mind.
Alexander Solis - TRA Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet
4oz glass is perfect and thats all you need. You dont need a veil layer.
The peel ply is needed to smooth everything out. My personal favorite is the teflon peel ply you can get from Applied Vehicle Technologies. Its at $6.50 you cant beat it. Other peel plys are difficult to remove and wet out.
Your resin of choice is fine and as for hardener I recommend you get the 60 minute hardener. One thing I've learned is that you want as much time as possible. You dont want it to set up on you too quickly.
Get yourself a roller, no brush. Its a lot faster to laminate and helps layer the fibers flatter. Dont get foam though it produces lots of air bubbles.
Get an L angle bar to mark a straight line to roll your glass on and it just makes it so easy.
Dont forget safety, get some nitrile gloves.
Hope this eases your mind.
Alexander Solis - TRA Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet
For anyone reading this thread and considering the GLR Kevlar sock, I just used this on a 34" x 4" diameter tube on the weekend.
Steps:
I first prepped the tube, sanded, inserted couplers covered in saran wrap to act as a mandrel, then end caps. At this point I slid the sock on and cut it to length, leaving about a 1" overhang on each end. I then rolled 50% of the sock up to the middle of the tube then the other 50% to meet it in the middle. This is the only way to get it rolled up because the 4" diameter put the sock near its maximum expandability. Once it was rolled I laid down a generous amount of epoxy, then the sock was rolled out end to end; making sure I got coverage under where the rolled sock was. I then wet it out completely. This was a major pain as the sock just soaks it up and I was not prepared for the amount of resin it took, so I had to mix up a second batch, double what I originally thought; poor planning and this stuff likes resin. I also used a brush and should have used a roller, live and learn. Once fully wet-out I laid down my peel ply, breather, slid into my prepped vac-bag and put under about 26Hg of vacuum, and managed to get a great seal. My vacuum pump only cycled once every 90 min for 2 min to top it off. I left it in the bag for 11 hours then de-bagged and unwrapped it.
The result was a fully infused layup with a lot of the excess resin being drawn back out from the vacuum, however the finish is less than ideal. I knew the finish was going to be full of vertical ridges, although I was hoping that I cold line them up and it would add to the look of the rocket. However lining them up proved to be next to impossible with the setup I had, again bad planning on my behalf. In hind sight i should of used a jig and angle iron to line them up. Bottom line it does not look the way I want it to. Filling the ridges would take quite a bit of work and I suspect that sanding will simply create a lot of fuzzy Kevlar, so I have decided not to do this and scrap the tube.
In the end it was a great "experiment" but I have come to the conclusion that this product is a lot more work to use than a single carbon wrap and it results in a relatively heavy reinforcement that is hard to finish, so a pretty inefficient solution.
If you want pics let me know.
Next up the GLR "Easy-Gla" sock.
Steps:
I first prepped the tube, sanded, inserted couplers covered in saran wrap to act as a mandrel, then end caps. At this point I slid the sock on and cut it to length, leaving about a 1" overhang on each end. I then rolled 50% of the sock up to the middle of the tube then the other 50% to meet it in the middle. This is the only way to get it rolled up because the 4" diameter put the sock near its maximum expandability. Once it was rolled I laid down a generous amount of epoxy, then the sock was rolled out end to end; making sure I got coverage under where the rolled sock was. I then wet it out completely. This was a major pain as the sock just soaks it up and I was not prepared for the amount of resin it took, so I had to mix up a second batch, double what I originally thought; poor planning and this stuff likes resin. I also used a brush and should have used a roller, live and learn. Once fully wet-out I laid down my peel ply, breather, slid into my prepped vac-bag and put under about 26Hg of vacuum, and managed to get a great seal. My vacuum pump only cycled once every 90 min for 2 min to top it off. I left it in the bag for 11 hours then de-bagged and unwrapped it.
The result was a fully infused layup with a lot of the excess resin being drawn back out from the vacuum, however the finish is less than ideal. I knew the finish was going to be full of vertical ridges, although I was hoping that I cold line them up and it would add to the look of the rocket. However lining them up proved to be next to impossible with the setup I had, again bad planning on my behalf. In hind sight i should of used a jig and angle iron to line them up. Bottom line it does not look the way I want it to. Filling the ridges would take quite a bit of work and I suspect that sanding will simply create a lot of fuzzy Kevlar, so I have decided not to do this and scrap the tube.
In the end it was a great "experiment" but I have come to the conclusion that this product is a lot more work to use than a single carbon wrap and it results in a relatively heavy reinforcement that is hard to finish, so a pretty inefficient solution.
If you want pics let me know.
Next up the GLR "Easy-Gla" sock.
RocketFeller
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When we did our GLR Kevlar sock I built a simple jig to hold the tube. We used baking parchment for the release and electrical tape for compression. Other than a couple shallow lines where the parchment wrinkled it turned out remarkably smooth.
We stretched the sock over the tube and zip-tied the ends like a tootsie roll. We then used a plastic Bondo applicator to squeegee on the resin. The excess was forced out the ends and drooped onto the base of the jig.
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I agree....
Funny...I know that feeling! I like my Echo 2's 9 foot 6,8 and 10 wt's
Tony
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Tip with the US Compsites pumps: Still weigh your epoxy. The pumps are 1:1 so you need a total of 4 pumps to get the correct ratio. That is A LOT of epoxy and probably more than you need unless you are doing a 4' tube. I use a scale good to .1g and weigh all my epoxy from them in the correct ratio. If you use the epoxy for other things like fillets and gluing centering rings or bulkheads you will use maybe 1/3 pump total sometimes. The pumps are still very nice for dispensing epoxy without making a mess.
rharshberger
Well-Known Member
I no longer use the pumps, but dispense the two parts into smaller squeeze bottles and then use a scale.
One possible explanation is that once under vacuum the ridges only compress so far but the gaps in between compressed further, with more resin being evacuated. Assuming you laid up without vacuum your gaps may have retained a bit more resin, essentially filling the gaps. One easy way to find out is to net out the weight difference per square inch.
Unfortunately I do not recall where I marked down the starting BT weight, but the post weight is 453.31 g using a scale with .001 resolution. That also includes the fin slots which need to be cleaned out. If someone has the same 4" Binder retro devastator BT laying around and can weigh it then I will clean up the tube including the fin slots and net the gain per square inch.
So this was my first attempt at glassing a tube. I put down 2 layers of 6 oz. followed by 1 layer of 3 oz with Teflon peel ply on top. Is this the expected texture when finished?
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Looks about right. Slight fabric texture, but no feel of the fiberglass weave. Let cure FULLY, might be several days, and sand. My efforts required only a quick 220, 320, 400 light sand and was ready for filler primer.
Looks great. As far as what is expected, it depends on the peel-ply but it is not unusual to leave some pattern. Some peel plys are meant to leave a bonding surface, some much smoother.
Looks about right.
I may have pulled the peel ply off early but wasn't sure how long to leave it on. Anyhow it was just a test on a small piece of 3" tube. Really a lot easier than I thought and this thread and a few videos have been really helpful. Thanks to all and didn't mean to jack this thread!
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Everyone does it a little differently, it seems. There is no real number to put to when you can/should pull the peel, it's the state of the resin, which can change based on thickness, type of hardener used, and environmentals. I keep pulling up a little of the overhang until I think it's the right time, and then go for it.
BDB
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Thanks to everyone who offered their advice on this thread. Last month I ordered the items that I listed in post #33 and started experimenting with glassing techniques. I documented my studies here. The conclusion of the study was that two wraps of 6 oz glass made for a very strong tube, and the use of peel ply made the final surface smooth. Interestingly, the added weight actually increased the predicted altitude of the flight with high-thrust motors.
So, I glassed my first airframe this week. This is the booster section of my L2 kit, a Binder Design Terrordactyl.
The first pic shows the tube after the layup with peel ply. After 20 hrs I removed the peel ply, trimmed the edges with a blade and cut the fin slots. (It was cold in my garage, so the cure was extra slow.)
This 4" x 36" tube was considerably more difficult than the small tubes that I used for my tests. I needed way more epoxy than I anticipated. (I should have used blackbrandt's epoxy and glass calculator.) The finish is pretty good, but the edge of the wrap is going to need serous sanding and filling. There are many bubbles near the edge of the wrap that will also need to be sanded and filled. I assume that vacuum bagging could have prevented them, so that is my next challenge.
So, I glassed my first airframe this week. This is the booster section of my L2 kit, a Binder Design Terrordactyl.
The first pic shows the tube after the layup with peel ply. After 20 hrs I removed the peel ply, trimmed the edges with a blade and cut the fin slots. (It was cold in my garage, so the cure was extra slow.)
This 4" x 36" tube was considerably more difficult than the small tubes that I used for my tests. I needed way more epoxy than I anticipated. (I should have used blackbrandt's epoxy and glass calculator.) The finish is pretty good, but the edge of the wrap is going to need serous sanding and filling. There are many bubbles near the edge of the wrap that will also need to be sanded and filled. I assume that vacuum bagging could have prevented them, so that is my next challenge.
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For me, vacuum bagging a tube isn't worth it. It usually makes things wrinkle instead of going smooth. Since the cloth is wound around the tube when it is squeezed it doesn't tightned the wrap, it just wrinkles it.
Steve
Steve
BDB
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Interesting. In that case, maybe I'll try John Coker's method. I still have to wrap the payload section. Maybe I'll give it a shot tonight.
BDB
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Yea. I still want to order one of the socks from GLR. I could test them with my make-shift press to compare strength to the conventional wraps. My little "science fair project" last weekend showed that it doesn't take much glass to dramatically improve the strength of a tube.
If by that you mean the mylar method, best of luck. He makes it look so easy on his site, but each time I've tried it (granted, only twice, he's obviously perfected his technique) I've had finish issues. The glass is fully wet, but I have yet to get the mylar down fully. It has air pockets that end up leaving a void, basically, that then needs to be filled. It's not a void in the typical sense, since the glass is wet and adhered...just not a glass-smooth finish like the areas where the mylar are fully down develop. This is proving tricky to describe...wish I had a picture...will look through my files. If you have a better experience, I would love to learn how you've done it! Andrew's link to Vehicle technologies is new to me, and I'm thinking of trying the peel ply he mentioned- I feel the fact that it's porous will help ensure that it's fully in contact with the material, unlike the air-tight mylar.
+1 to this. I use this too for lamination, but developed a little trick I can share- get a 1/2" CPVC pipe and cut off a bit (I used about an inch). Slice the tube with shears lengthwise in two places leaving a C shape (more closed than open tho), and then snap that on to the pump shaft. It makes a stop that restricts stroke volume to about half way. Once you pump your resin, switch the same tube to the hardener, and pump again. You can make two, of course, but I wasn't confident at the time that this would work, and didn't want to risk making two dissimilar length pieces. Wouldn't be hard to get them sanded to the exact same length...might do that this weekend! It's been quite awhile since I've laminated, so I can't remember how much this gives me, but it works really well.
I still weigh it. With the scale it doesn't matter. I accurately weighed 4.0 grams of resin and 1.0 grams of hardener the other day. The pumps make it as easy to get those small amounts and that's something that couldn't reliably be done with sleeves.
