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Whoops reading comprehension not high this morning. My idea neglected the tail cone part.
kj
 
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Whoops reading comprehension not high this morning. My idea neglected the tail cone part.
kj

FWIW, don't delete any ideas you may have, even if they are out to lunch. I did get the email notification before you edited your post, and it gave me some good food for thought. I'm presently drawing up some new concepts as we speak. Since I'll be in Macon GA next weekend, LW & I can piddle with this in the evening after the launches. SoAR Lilly Launch It appears this is going to require a hands on, trial and error application with custom mods along the way. I still have to figure out what's going to hold the aft section to the forward section in flight!!! It's really hard to draw up a concept because there is so much going on inside this rocket. Makes me wonder if it's even worth the trouble.
WHAT IF IT'S NOT STABLE! CRASHES ON THE FIRST FLIGHT! :y:
 
FWIW, don't delete any ideas you may have, even if they are out to lunch. I did get the email notification before you edited your post, and it gave me some good food for thought. I'm presently drawing up some new concepts as we speak. Since I'll be in Macon GA next weekend, LW & I can piddle with this in the evening after the launches. SoAR Lilly Launch It appears this is going to require a hands on, trial and error application with custom mods along the way. I still have to figure out what's going to hold the aft section to the forward section in flight!!! It's really hard to draw up a concept because there is so much going on inside this rocket. Makes me wonder if it's even worth the trouble.

Obviously your choice, but this seems like a fascinating project to me, likely to generate a very interesting build thread and unearth some interesting techniques. And it would be an absolute attention-getter at launch, particularly with the spaced-apart canted motors.

If this were my build (and thank god it's not :grin:) I'd probably do it in the background while working on other stuff; possibly too frustrating to focus on it exclusively. Also likely to benefit from some prolonged pondering.

In any case, I hope you go through with it so I can spectate, but I could understand if you didn't want to.

[edit: wait, were you wondering if it's worth the trouble to build it, or worth the trouble to draw it up? If the latter, then never mind!]
WHAT IF IT'S NOT STABLE! CRASHES ON THE FIRST FLIGHT! :y:

That's why you take lots and lots of pictures before the first flight. :)
 
Obviously your choice, but this seems like a fascinating project to me, likely to generate a very interesting build thread and unearth some interesting techniques. And it would be an absolute attention-getter at launch, particularly with the spaced-apart canted motors.

If this were my build (and thank god it's not :grin:) I'd probably do it in the background while working on other stuff; possibly too frustrating to focus on it exclusively. Also likely to benefit from some prolonged pondering.

This stage of the concept is the frustrating part. Normally, I never have a problem in the designing stage, but I didn't design this. That's what's making it harder. Once I get all the "I's" crossed, and the T's dotted, the rest is just a matter of making templates, cutting and assembly. It's definitely going to be an off & on project.

In any case, I hope you go through with it so I can spectate, but I could understand if you didn't want to.

I won't throw in the towel unless I'm certain it can't be done....by me. I'm tenacious and stubborn to the point I have to prove it to myself that it's a waste of time. I'm not defeated easily either.
 
Since I'll be in Macon GA next weekend, LW & I can piddle with this in the evening after the launches. SoAR Lilly Launch It appears this is going to require a hands on, trial and error application with custom mods along the way. I still have to figure out what's going to hold the aft section to the forward section in flight!!! It's really hard to draw up a concept because there is so much going on inside this rocket. Makes me wonder if it's even worth the trouble.

I am only a couple of hours from Macon, I wish I could get down there and talk through some of the ideas that I have been kicking around.

My thinking thus far has been to keep things as simple and familiar as possible. The only real complication that I am kicking around is ducting the ejection charge and going with a standard top ejection. While this adds some complexity to the build, it also may help to shift some weight forward in an airframe that I think is going to be very tail heavy.
WHAT IF IT'S NOT STABLE! CRASHES ON THE FIRST FLIGHT! :y:

IT WOULD BE SPECTACULAR!!!! Can you just imagine the balsa carnage that could result?
 
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I am only a couple of hours from Macon, I wish I could get down there and talk through some of the ideas that I have been kicking around.

That would be cool. I bought some really thin foam core board this afternoon to mount the 1/2 scale templates on. That poster board idea was not very good. I'll cut that out and take the pieces and parts with me. LW is my 2nd head when I need one.

My thinking thus far has been to keep things as simple and familiar as possible.

I'd like to believe that was possible. But the more I kick this around in CAD, the more complicated it gets.


The only real complication that I am kicking around is ducting the ejection charge and going with a standard top ejection. While this adds some complexity to the build, it also may help to shift some weight forward in an airframe that I think is going to be very tail heavy.

LW already told me about reverse ducting and that it was very unreliable. Of course, he was much younger then, and with 2 well seasoned minds at work, we might just make that work. Blowing off a top ejection would be the best foot forward, but that's hardly possible. We'll look at that idea together though. Maybe there's a way. And you are right. It WILL be tail heavy.


IT WOULD BE SPECTACULAR!!!! Can you just imagine the balsa carnage that could result?

Bite your tongue.
 
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Bite your tongue.

Look at it this way, any launch with this thing is going to be memorable.


My idea for structure on this is to use bulkheads that match the outline. There would be one at each end of the motor tubes, one at either end of the main body to define the angles and one or two intermediate bulkheads as needed to stiffen the structure. I would use a spar to support the motor tubes and arrange the ejection ducting (T-5?) to help shore up the front if needed. Lightening holes could be drilled in much of this to keep weight down.
 
For what it is worth, here is an .ORK file that I found a while back. I think it came from TRF itself actually. This is NOT my work and I would gladly give credit to whomever created it if I could remember. I look forward to reading more of the conversation about how to do this build!

Thanks, but no thanks. This is nothing but a 3 FNC model with a central motor, to resemble the Web Spinner. I saw this in a previous posting from years ago. I don't remember who made it either, but it's definitely not what I'm aiming for.

I already have a build concept going on, and what I'm trying to achieve, is a working chute deployment and maybe some good tips/ideas on interior construction. My model will be way over the top to the likes of this ork file.

Thank you anyway.
That is a concept model I created just to get an idea if that sort of configuration could ever have a suitable CG/CP margin of stability. I never built it and don't plan to. Here's my post with a 3D view of the rocket:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?131996-Tholian-Web-Spinner-idea&p=1549222#post1549222

EDIT: note my comment in that thread post - "This is such an unusual design that I don't actually trust either sim program for stability or apogee projections." By "either sim program," I was referring to Rocksim and Open Rocket, the sims I used to sim that concept design.
 
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That is a concept model I created just to get an idea if that sort of configuration could ever have a suitable CG/CP margin of stability. I never built it and don't plan to. Here's my post with a 3D view of the rocket:

EDIT: note my comment in that thread post - "This is such an unusual design that I don't actually trust either sim program for stability or apogee projections." By "either sim program," I was referring to Rocksim and Open Rocket, the sims I used to sim that concept design.

I also saw a posting from about 2006 (I think) where someone else had given this a thought or 2. I did see your thread though. Without reading much about it, I had the notion it was a central motor design that appeared to be a 3FNC idea. I'll be using mindsim because I wouldn't trust Rocksim or Open Rocket for something of this nature.

A lot of changes on my drawing board has led me to a nose blow idea that might work with enough nose weight. I'll determine that after I get the 1/2 size prototype built. That goes down this weekend in Macon GA when LW and I will assemble it for interior configs. The drawing below is a simple 2D rendering. If all goes as planned, I should be able to assemble a full size model around 2' tall. I'll be able to redesign the templates for construction as needed. Even if it proves to be unstable, it'll still be a fun project and look great as a display model.

Tholian Nose Eject.jpg
 
I also saw a posting from about 2006 (I think) where someone else had given this a thought or 2. I did see your thread though. Without reading much about it, I had the notion it was a central motor design that appeared to be a 3FNC idea. I'll be using mindsim because I wouldn't trust Rocksim or Open Rocket for something of this nature.

A lot of changes on my drawing board has led me to a nose blow idea that might work with enough nose weight. I'll determine that after I get the 1/2 size prototype built. That goes down this weekend in Macon GA when LW and I will assemble it for interior configs. The drawing below is a simple 2D rendering. If all goes as planned, I should be able to assemble a full size model around 2' tall. I'll be able to redesign the templates for construction as needed. Even if it proves to be unstable, it'll still be a fun project and look great as a display model.

View attachment 301861

If your fore lamp rod lug slides into your aft cardboard lug, your compartment is 'sealed' for the ejection charge and you have a nice torus to lay your recovery train into.
 
If your fore lamp rod lug slides into your aft cardboard lug, your compartment is 'sealed' for the ejection charge and you have a nice torus to lay your recovery train into.

The lug is cut at the separation point and has it's own outer coupler so that, when assembled, the cut lug is inside the coupler. The BT 70 should have enough room for the laundry.
 
That is the direction that my mindsim was going. If the outer structure seemed weak, I have been thinking about a spar between the MMT and the center line.
 
So, after pondering this a while, as the idea of building had faded like so many other scratch builders have done, I took another look at how it could be constructed. My earlier drawings proved to be over the top with too many useless details and I knew there had to be a better method. I ditched the cluster concept and went for a single engine construction. Here’s a cut away of what I have in mind for tub configs and “fin” patterns. Here I also show where separation will happen now that I have a better understanding of how it’ll go together.
 

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Drew up some templates based on a photograph and some of my earlier drawings and went at it. Since at this time I hadn’t figured where it was going to deploy, I made the templates 2 piece instead of three. Which may or may not be the magic number when assembly begins. This prototype is a very rough cardboard cut-out just to see if my measurements are close and the BT 70 inside is going to fit. Here are the templates and the first straked section in progress. Just a foot note, these templates are likely to change as It appear this whole build is changing as I move through it.
 

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I made 3 straked ribs (if you will), they’re actually the fins, and mounted them on an old BT 70 I botched from an earlier project. The BT is much longer than it should be and acts as a standoff for now. This is making me confident that building this bird is actually possible.
 

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The next 2 templates provided this panel that barely conceals that BT 70…YAY!! I thought I was going to have to get seriously creative in that section. And the aft part of the “fins”. I only did one side of those for the sake of a photo. As I move along, I’ll add the other sides and fill the bottom sections. It appears that this will be a combo of plywood and balsa so it doesn’t weigh a ton. It’s being designed for 24mm MPR motors, but I may alter the design for 29mm just in case it does weigh a lot.
 

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What I hadn’t figured on was the way I was using the forward CR’s, so now I’ll mount them on a 70 coupler to fit a BT 20 that’ll run into the nose section. This will be a nice place to add the needed nose weight. So basically, the nose tip will plug into the BT 70 like a shoulder. Then with using a 29mm motor mount and tweaking the fin pattern a bit, we now have the inner construction design. Looks to me like I could make the mid and aft section fins a 1 piece instead of 2. I might just have to use my guy in Hickory again to laser cut these. He did such a fine job on my last 2 projects.
 

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I have no idea. This one will be played by ear in some areas. All I had to go on was this pic. The rear panels will be customized because the angle isn't clear to me. I struggled through this 2 years ago and I'll struggle through it this time too. I'll probably get the tube structure together first and I'll have to order the 1/8" plywood. I need a specific size that I found. 6 pieces of 20" x 30". Kinda pricey but wtf.
 
3) How many pounds of nose weight are gonna get jammed in there?

Probably not as much as you might think. The shape approximates a cone. Knowing that the CP of a cone occurs at 2/3 of the length from the tip, and taking into account the base drag, I'd estimate the CP will be in the vicinity of widest point in the airframe. It should not take a massive amount of nose weight to bring the CG above that point.
 
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I'm going to try to make a decent set of templates as I go through this build. Which will be in it's own thread btw. Maybe someone else can build one also. It appeared to have quite a few interested people in here over the years. The only thing I've seen on the market are resin cast display figures and a card stock model you can print out. It's not like anything I've ever tried to build before. I have no set patterns to work with so they'll have to be custom designed as I go. I may get started as soon as I am certain of the fin patterns because I'll be having those laser cut.
 
Are the new patterns that much different than what we worked out when you were here visiting that time?
Not by much. Having designed this thing from the inside first made it easy to fit the shell over it. I just printed off a scaled down model that uses 13mm motors as a practice build. If this all turns out well, I'll have the laser cuts done soon after for the bigger one.
 
You better believe that I'm keeping up with this one! I need something like this to help me get my rocket mojo back!
 
You better believe that I'm keeping up with this one! I need something like this to help me get my rocket mojo back!
I'll try to get a few pics for you on where I am with the prototype. I found I needed jigs to assemble the **warp engine fins?** I don't know what to call these and can't find the correct info on most of the parts. I did make patterns and templates though. I botched the forward tube section and had to rebuild it. Customizing CR's for a BT 3 to a BT 50 had to be done by hand. yay......
 
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