Should you kit an L3 cert?

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From popping the main at apogee
Believe it or not, this is now ruled as a pass for an L3...
TRA or NAR?



TRA -- unsure about NAR....
 
NAR too.

"d) The rocket shall fully deploy its recovery system. An anomalous deployment of the recovery system is not cause for flight rejection if the model descended in a safe manner. It is up to the judgement of the Flight Witnesses whether the model descended in a safe manner."
 
From popping the main at apogee

Believe it or not, this is now ruled as a pass for an L3....
If you read the TRA cert rules, they require electronics but not dual deploy:

"Level 3 certification flights shall include at least two completely separate electronic devices, with independent power sources, wire harnesses, and ignition devices for the primary and back-up means of recovery system deployment."

But it says nothing about requiring deploying the main at apogee.

I read through the NAR requirements and they mention both a drogue and main chute which seems to imply using dual deploy. I'm not sure where you got that info but it doesn't seem to mesh with what's on the websites.


Tony
 
L3 cert was so watered down that dumping the chute at apogee is a pass.
For some flights, perhaps well planned ones, dumping the chute at apogee might be ideal?
How about a pyramid style rocket for L3? A few pieces of plywood and a motor tube. Does it work for you?
 
can't do oddrocks for Tripoli L3. no specific requirement for NAR..
 
But it says nothing about requiring deploying the main at apogee.

Talking DD flight that dumps the main early.
The "return in safe manner" takes over and you pass as long as you stay in the waiver, etc.

Stupid rule change IMHO....if you planned DD and failed to get DD, you are not demonstrating competence.

If you DIDN'T plan DD because of your flight profile, that is entirely different.
 
I think Fred was referring to the main coming out at apogee when it was planned to come out at the altitude programmed in the altimeter. There has been quite a discussion on this over the years in TRA. There are definitely two different camps but TRA has said that early deployment is not cause for failure in itself. However, unplanned apogee deployment often causes a level 3 rocket to land outside the "cone" of the waiver which can be cause for a fail.

Certainly a planned main at apogee that is electronically deployed as Tony describes would not be a problem since it is an "as planned" event.

Fred can chime in here if he thinks I am off base. Well, he beat me to it by one minute.
 
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can't do oddrocks for Tripoli L3. no specific requirement for NAR..

It's in there for NAR too, just kind of wordy.

2.6 rocket used for a Level 3 certification must have a minimum fineness (length-to-mean diameter/body width) ratio of 4:1 and be aerodynamically stabilized using fins, tubes or other non-shroud components of measurable thickness not to exceed 10% of the mean chord or semi-span. In lieu of calculating the mean diameter/body width, maximum diameter/body width may be used. The documentation submitted for review shall include the fineness ratio and mean chord/semispan-to-thickness ratio
 
If you read the TRA cert rules, they require electronics but not dual deploy:

"Level 3 certification flights shall include at least two completely separate electronic devices, with independent power sources, wire harnesses, and ignition devices for the primary and back-up means of recovery system deployment."

But it says nothing about requiring deploying the main at apogee.

I read through the NAR requirements and they mention both a drogue and main chute which seems to imply using dual deploy. I'm not sure where you got that info but it doesn't seem to mesh with what's on the websites.


Tony

As I read this, it actually doesn't specify that you MUST use DD... you just need to have two electronic means of deploying the main. If you DO use DD, then one of the redundant systems can be motor eject, as long as it's a backup for the electronics. Since most L3 flight's apogee is going to be outside the maximum delay of the motor, this usually isn't an option.
 
Starting off reading the thread, I was thinking that scratch is significantly harder because you have to figure out the shape of the fins and do more planning on stability. By the end, I've realized that the important thing is that you can do the engineering and fabrication. It's probably just as much work to check and modify a "standard" OR/Rocksim file as it is to build it. As long as the flyer can demonstrate doing the sims and checking the flight will work properly, the goal is satisfied. Other than cutting the fins and centering rings, the rest of the fabrication is the same. I had my friend with a laser cut those parts, so it didn't even require much effort from me.

Redundant dual deploy isn't super difficult. With a couple of altimeters and their manual(s), you can make that happen pretty easily, especially if you have a copy of Canepa or read TRF. Making an av-bay that's elegant is another matter entirely! Our group of high school rocketeers did the first part of this last year, with no prior controlled ejection experience. They definitely failed the second test, although this year should be better.

I went scratch for L1 and kit for attempted L2. No plans for L3, but I also wasn't going to do L2, so...
 
But it says nothing about requiring deploying the main at apogee.

Talking DD flight that dumps the main early.
The "return in safe manner" takes over and you pass as long as you stay in the waiver, etc.

Stupid rule change IMHO....if you planned DD and failed to get DD, you are not demonstrating competence.

If you DIDN'T plan DD because of your flight profile, that is entirely different.
I agree that if you are planning on DD and then pop the main at the top that should be a fail on a cert flight.

I popped a way oversized main on a 12K flight at BALLS a couple of years ago (not a certification flight). I'm embarrassed to admit it took 600 seconds to return to earth! This was a 50# rocket. In spite of that it landed less than a mile away from the pad. I had to add several pounds of nose weight once I got the rocket all prepped at the field and realized my CG was off. The shear pins were sized for the lighter nose cone and I did not update the calculations to make sure they would still hold with the extra weight. I knew the chute was over sized but it figured it would not be an issue if it popped at 1100' as planned.

In my view for a Level 3 cert flight that kind of failure should indicate a lack of thorough prep and engineering and lead to a failed cert flight.


Tony
 
Starting off reading the thread, I was thinking that scratch is significantly harder because you have to figure out the shape of the fins and do more planning on stability. By the end, I've realized that the important thing is that you can do the engineering and fabrication. It's probably just as much work to check and modify a "standard" OR/Rocksim file as it is to build it. As long as the flyer can demonstrate doing the sims and checking the flight will work properly, the goal is satisfied. Other than cutting the fins and centering rings, the rest of the fabrication is the same. I had my friend with a laser cut those parts, so it didn't even require much effort from me.

Redundant dual deploy isn't super difficult. With a couple of altimeters and their manual(s), you can make that happen pretty easily, especially if you have a copy of Canepa or read TRF. Making an av-bay that's elegant is another matter entirely! Our group of high school rocketeers did the first part of this last year, with no prior controlled ejection experience. They definitely failed the second test, although this year should be better.

I went scratch for L1 and kit for attempted L2. No plans for L3, but I also wasn't going to do L2, so...

Keep in mind... The basis for the current L3 rules were written before OpenRocket and Rocksim existed and before the modern incarnation of altimeters. Achieving L3 without those tools used to require quite a bit more brain-sim work. These modern advancements have made it far simpler to achieve L3 while also making the entire hobby safer AND more accessible to the less-than-mathematically-inclined. IMHO, that's a good thing.
What I'm getting from this thread is that there's a sub-current of rocketeers who lament the days where things took a bit more brainpower because the tech wasn't around to do so much for you.
I get that. I don't think it's a bad thing though...

I've been thinking about this idea and have done some work putting together a kind of "badge" proposal. Something where members could earn badges or patches for demonstrating competency/skill in certain areas of rocketry. Something like a "Staging badge" might require a written test/written explanation of staging formulas followed by a successful flight and recovery of a staged rocket using at least two L1 motors or larger... Just as an example. Obviously the badge wouldn't be required to fly staged rockets, it would just be a kind of award/recognition for advancing your rocketry skill set. This might also solve some of the problem of the L3-and-out problem... Where people earn their L3 then feel there's nothing left to achieve and quietly drift out of the hobby. Have an assortment of badges to earn and, boom, motivation to try new things...
Would also help people identify others who are actually credible when talking about certain rocketry topics...

Just a few thoughts.
 
On the badge idea....

This hobby, to a large extent, is about bragging rights, at least for some people. For others it is about learning something, or perfecting a skill. Either is fine. At the end of the day, though we don't have much to show for ourselves, especially once we have pushed the limits just a little too far, and lost or rockets. Getting certified becomes an accomplishment we can point to. And for some, more so for the L3, that is all a certification is. They will fly something that size once, just to say they did, or prove something to themselves. That is fine, but for many, they feel like they are done, and walk away. People forget that there is always something more to do, it just takes some creativity...

We should encourage people to have a rocket bucket list, or at least a follow on project to anything they are doing at the moment, whether that is an L3 or anything else. We can combat this tenancy of people to reach a point in the hobby and leave by hanging out at launches asking our friends, new or old, what they are dreaming up for their next build, or way down the line. Never let your rocket friends think this one might be their last bird.
 
I thought a hobby was about having fun doing something you like.
We don't need no stinkin badges.... :wink:
 
I think most have agreed that there is nothing wrong with using a kit for your L3. Being a scratch builder by and of itself doesn't prove you capable of flying L3 profiles.

I do find the dismissal attitude and lack of respect for the skills required to scratch build somewhat irratating though. Cutting & beveling or framing & laying up a matched set of fins isn't all that easy, rolling a quality tube, cutting clean, striaght, symetrical fin slots, or laying up a nose cone aren't either, especially those that just use hand tools and don't have fully equipped machine shops. We have some guys in our club that design and build their own electronics and altimeters from scratch. I respect that and let them know that I admire and appreciate their skills, I don't tell them that all altimeters are the same, they are just a bunch of electronic parts and a board, and big deal you can solder. Learn to appreciate all the different aspects of our great hobby without making light of what others may be doing that differs from your opinion.
 
Agreed, been flying since 1994 and it hasn't gotten old one bit for me. I fly everything from A's to N's and all of them are still fun to me. Just gotta get the balls to fly some O's....

Back on track, my dad did his L3 back in 1998 and deployed the main at apogee (planned) and I saw many that way during that time period. I also agree that or think it's pretty crappy that if u plan DD on an L3 and dump it at apogee u still can get ur L3. But what do I know....

Preston
I thought a hobby was about having fun doing something you like.
We don't need no stinkin badges.... :wink:
 
Preston I also did my L-3 about the same year at Bong. I built a 7.5 PML parts rocket flew it to a mile high on a AT-M1315 and I also planned main at the apogee. All work great rocket landed near parking lot-E. I feel flight should go as planned to pass your L-3
 
Keep in mind... The basis for the current L3 rules were written before OpenRocket and Rocksim existed and before the modern incarnation of altimeters. Achieving L3 without those tools used to require quite a bit more brain-sim work. These modern advancements have made it far simpler to achieve L3 while also making the entire hobby safer AND more accessible to the less-than-mathematically-inclined. IMHO, that's a good thing.
What I'm getting from this thread is that there's a sub-current of rocketeers who lament the days where things took a bit more brainpower because the tech wasn't around to do so much for you.
I get that. I don't think it's a bad thing though...

I've been thinking about this idea and have done some work putting together a kind of "badge" proposal. Something where members could earn badges or patches for demonstrating competency/skill in certain areas of rocketry. Something like a "Staging badge" might require a written test/written explanation of staging formulas followed by a successful flight and recovery of a staged rocket using at least two L1 motors or larger... Just as an example. Obviously the badge wouldn't be required to fly staged rockets, it would just be a kind of award/recognition for advancing your rocketry skill set. This might also solve some of the problem of the L3-and-out problem... Where people earn their L3 then feel there's nothing left to achieve and quietly drift out of the hobby. Have an assortment of badges to earn and, boom, motivation to try new things...
Would also help people identify others who are actually credible when talking about certain rocketry topics...

Just a few thoughts.

I think that's a cool idea, and you are spot on. A guy who is Level 0 may be phenomenal at staging, and I wanted staging advice, I'd rather go to him than to an L3 who has rarely or never staged. Same with scratch building, exceeding Mach, etc.

I also think there is a lot more to the hobby now than just "what impulse motor can I fly?"
 
I think most have agreed that there is nothing wrong with using a kit for your L3. Being a scratch builder by and of itself doesn't prove you capable of flying L3 profiles.

I do find the dismissal attitude and lack of respect for the skills required to scratch build somewhat irratating though. Cutting & beveling or framing & laying up a matched set of fins isn't all that easy, rolling a quality tube, cutting clean, striaght, symetrical fin slots, or laying up a nose cone aren't either, especially those that just use hand tools and don't have fully equipped machine shops. We have some guys in our club that design and build their own electronics and altimeters from scratch. I respect that and let them know that I admire and appreciate their skills, I don't tell them that all altimeters are the same, they are just a bunch of electronic parts and a board, and big deal you can solder. Learn to appreciate all the different aspects of our great hobby without making light of what others may be doing that differs from your opinion.

I agree with everything mentioned here. I also really like the idea of badges or a personal achievement checklist. There are so many facets to this hobby and avenues to explore. Level 3 isn't the end by any means.

Off the top of my head, here's a list of things to go after:
  1. Scratch Building
    1. Design and sim a rocket by hand without software.
    2. Roll Your own tubes.
    3. Make your own fins and fin slots.
    4. Make a nose cone
    5. Make your own parachute
    6. Make your own dual deploy electronics
    7. Do a display quality paint job on a rocket
  2. Low Power
    1. Compete in an egg lofting competition
    2. Compete in a duration event
    3. Build/fly a museum quality rocket.
    4. Build/fly a detailed scale rocket from scratch.
    5. Build/fly an odd-roc.
    6. Build a glider.
  3. High Power
    1. Get your Level 1
    2. Get your Level 2
    3. Get your Level 3
    4. Compete in a bowling ball lofting event
    5. Drag race a HPR rocket
    6. Successfully fly and recover a 2 stage rocket w/ HPR motors
    7. Successfully fly and recover a 3 stage rocket w/ HPR motors
    8. Successfully fly and recover a 2-3 motor cluster w/ HPR motors
    9. Successfully fly and recover a 4-5 motor cluster w/ HPR motors
    10. Successfully fly and recover a 7+ motor cluster w/ HPR motors
    11. Successfully fly and recover a rocket with airstarted motors.
    12. Build/fly a HPR odd-roc
    13. Build a 1/2 scale model of a sounding rocket.
    14. Build a 3/4 scale model of a sounding rocket.
    15. Build a full scale model of a sounding rocket.
    16. Fly a Hybrid Motor in a rocket
    17. Cluster a Hybrid Motor in a rocket.
    18. Turn a common household object weighing more than 20 lbs into a rocket.
  4. Extreme Performance/Power
    1. Sucessfully Fly and recover a rocket with N Class total impulse
    2. Sucessfully Fly and recover a rocket with O Class total impulse
    3. Sucessfully Fly and recover a rocket with P Class total impulse
    4. Sucessfully Fly and recover a rocket with Q Class total impulse
    5. Set a Tripoli altitude record.
    6. Fly and recover a rocket that broke Mach 1
    7. Fly and recover a rocket that broke Mach 2
    8. Fly and recover a rocket that broke Mach 3
    9. Fly and recover a rocket that broke Mach 4
    10. Fly and recover a rocket that went above 10,000 ft.
    11. Fly and recover a rocket that went above 25,000 ft.
    12. Fly and recover a rocket that went above 50,000 ft.
    13. Fly and recover a rocket that went above 75,000 ft.
    14. Fly and recover a rocket that went above 100,000 ft.
  5. EX rocketry
    1. Build a 38mm composite motor
    2. Build a 54mm composite motor
    3. Build a 75mm composite motor
    4. Build a 98mm composite motor
    5. Build a 152mm composite motor
    6. Create a new propellant
    7. Characterize a propellant
    8. Create your own motor hardware
    9. Build a hybrid motor

If I left something out, sorry. And sorry for the long list, but I just wanted to demonstrate there is so much more you can do beside just "cert".
 
I think Fred was referring to the main coming out at apogee when it was planned to come out at the altitude programmed in the altimeter. There has been quite a discussion on this over the years in TRA. There are definitely two different camps but TRA has said that early deployment is not cause for failure in itself. However, unplanned apogee deployment often causes a level 3 rocket to land outside the "cone" of the waiver which can be cause for a fail.

Certainly a planned main at apogee that is electronically deployed as Tony describes would not be a problem since it is an "as planned" event.

Fred can chime in here if he thinks I am off base. Well, he beat me to it by one minute.

Yeah, if one has a Main at apogee and the rocket lands outside of a 1 mile waiver, technically it's a "do not pass". Kurt
 
Landing outside the waiver is always a fail.
Safely landing inside the waiver regardless of planned flight profile is a pass....
You should be REQUIRED to successfully fly your planned profile as the minimum demonstration of competence....IMHO.
 
Landing outside the waiver is always a fail.
Safely landing inside the waiver regardless of planned flight profile is a pass....
You should be REQUIRED to successfully fly your planned profile as the minimum demonstration of competence....IMHO.


On one hand, puking the main sounds like something that should fail. But if the flight is successful and safe still, I see it as being a flight profile that was designed to be safe enough to handle anomalies, and passable. Of course, there's the issue of why the chute puked and that's not a good thing.


But failing a safe apogee puke, would be like failing all L1's that have a delay go long....or pop early, but come back otherwise undamaged.


As I see the rules standing, it's have a safe flight and be able to refly it..... not "have a perfect flight with no mistakes"


Now...thats how it stands....should it change? I dunno. given the amount of total unsafe failures I see out there by certified fliers...maybe we should focus on tightening up recovery training.
 
On one hand, puking the main sounds like something that should fail. But if the flight is successful and safe still, I see it as being a flight profile that was designed to be safe enough to handle anomalies, and passable. Of course, there's the issue of why the chute puked and that's not a good thing.


But failing a safe apogee puke, would be like failing all L1's that have a delay go long....or pop early, but come back otherwise undamaged.


As I see the rules standing, it's have a safe flight and be able to refly it..... not "have a perfect flight with no mistakes"


Now...thats how it stands....should it change? I dunno. given the amount of total unsafe failures I see out there by certified fliers...maybe we should focus on tightening up recovery training.

I LOLed at the use of "puke." Haven't heard that one in my twenty years of High Power.
 
On one hand, puking the main sounds like something that should fail. But if the flight is successful and safe still, I see it as being a flight profile that was designed to be safe enough to handle anomalies, and passable. Of course, there's the issue of why the chute puked and that's not a good thing.

All depends on the luck of the draw with respect to winds aloft....
Should not be any LUCK involved in an L3....after all, this is a statement certifying you are "good to go" at ALL levels of flying.

I DO think it should be a "perfect" flight with no mistakes.....why not? It's L3 after all....the last test of competency.
If you can't get this flight right with two TAP's reviewing it, what can you get right?
 
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woW. I whole heartedly intended on laying up my own parts for L3 next year for my own design...I thought those were the rules. I guess I was wrong. I will have to reconsider.
 
I'm with NateLowrie, there are so many goals you can go after and skills that you can obtain that making any arbitrary non safety-related requirements for a L3 really doesn't add anything. (Although it WOULD be nice if they added a requirement that you had to build your own electronics... :) ) What's the difference between buying a kit or scratch building something using essentially the same components as a kit? Not much... either way you're gonna have to do an OR/RocSim analysis to make sure it's gonna be stable and keep you within your waiver (which is getting to be an increasingly more difficult L3 requirement). Most kits capable of L3 performance are basically just the FG components, the hardware and recovery bits aren't included, so a L3 actually IS a test of your design skills.
 
I'm with NateLowrie, there are so many goals you can go after and skills that you can obtain that making any arbitrary non safety-related requirements for a L3 really doesn't add anything. (Although it WOULD be nice if they added a requirement that you had to build your own electronics... :) ) What's the difference between buying a kit or scratch building something using essentially the same components as a kit? Not much... either way you're gonna have to do an OR/RocSim analysis to make sure it's gonna be stable and keep you within your waiver (which is getting to be an increasingly more difficult L3 requirement). Most kits capable of L3 performance are basically just the FG components, the hardware and recovery bits aren't included, so a L3 actually IS a test of your design skills.

Funny! (About building your own electronics. :wink:)

I agree with everything you wrote. In order to produce the L3 documentation, you have to know your build inside out. You have to know its flight profile. You have to know its weight, what motors it can/can't launch on, its stability with each motor, whether or not it will reach Mach, etc.

If scratch-building were a requirement, then what if I bought a kit and cut an inch off the booster? Is it now a scratch rocket? I mean, you can no longer say "Wildman says it's stable, so it is!"

Sometimes after I cut my grass or power wash my house, I look around at my neighbors' yards and houses and start to get ticked off if theirs are a mess. I think people who put the extra work into scratch-building just get sore when someone can cert with a kit, simply because they put more time/work into theirs.
 
Who are these people that feel you have to scratch build for an L3? I keep seeing mention of them, but none (or very few) have shown here to make the argument. All the contributors to this thread appear to generally be in agreement with a few more granular disagreements.
 
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