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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    yep....you're Hi Tech!

    When will you start selling these?
    Again, let's see how well they stand up to the rigors of flight first

    As to selling them, by my reckoning the total potential market for a capsule at this scale is about 2, but you already made your own!

    For anyone who wants one, my designs are online. I'm not home enough to run a print service, but I could certainly print a couple to scale for those who want one.

    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Again, let's see how well they stand up to the rigors of flight first

    As to selling them, by my reckoning the total potential market for a capsule at this scale is about 2, but you already made your own!

    For anyone who wants one, my designs are online. I'm not home enough to run a print service, but I could certainly print a couple to scale for those who want one.
    Love to have one...I can make a matching Little Joe II !

    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    Love to have one...I can make a matching Little Joe II !
    I'd be more than happy to make you one. Consider it a thank you for the inspiration. Be warned it is heavy though. The capsule itself without LES is about a half pound. I also plan on adding nose weight to mine!

    You'll have to wait until July though... I still have hopes of flying this at URRF at the end of June, and lots of stuff to do.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  4. #154
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    And damn it now I'm thinking about a Little Joe II!
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    And damn it now I'm thinking about a Little Joe II!
    Uh - oh.

    I think a LJ-II at this scale is quite doable.

    The hard part you got done.
    Of course all the corrugations on the airframe are fun.
    Last edited by MaxQ; 14th May 2017 at 05:23 AM.
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    Uh - oh. LOL

    I think a LJ-II at this scale is quite doable.

    The hard part you got done.
    Of course all the corrugations on the airframe are fun.
    Yes, it is. Lucky for you I have too much going on or I'd steal this idea too!

    The LJII BPC is quite different though. Since it was a test program for the LES, not all of the details shown here are on the LJII BPCs. Customizing this would be doable, but each mission is different so you'd have to pick one. George Gassaway has a LOT of information on them here: http://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Sc...A/LJoeMain.htm With just the LES jettison motor, I'd originally designed it with exposed nozzles. They're covered for the Apollo 7 so I had to rework it, but they're open on the LJII. This would be a simple change. The thruster quads could also be used.

    Could be a simple build, or a very detailed one depending on what you want to do. We'll talk after URRF.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Yes, it is. Lucky for you I have too much going on or I'd steal this idea too!

    The LJII BPC is quite different though. Since it was a test program for the LES, not all of the details shown here are on the LJII BPCs. Customizing this would be doable, but each mission is different so you'd have to pick one. George Gassaway has a LOT of information on them here: http://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Sc...A/LJoeMain.htm With just the LES jettison motor, I'd originally designed it with exposed nozzles. They're covered for the Apollo 7 so I had to rework it, but they're open on the LJII. This would be a simple change. The thruster quads could also be used.

    Could be a simple build, or a very detailed one depending on what you want to do. We'll talk after URRF.
    yep...
    I've started the build on the recent Estes rerelease of that LJ-II (can't have too many on-going projects after all) after the discussions on the kit.

    The G.Gassaway/John Pursley/James Duffy "beta build" here on TRF has the bugs worked out and good tips on that plastic glue problem with the ABS parts in the kit.
    http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...build+tips+joe
    George weighed in on this thread with lots of info.
    I'm clustering mine...with a PVC spider ignition system.

    But I think this scale that we got here would be even better for that.
    A roughly 6.6 to 7 inch diameter has many more motor options in those ALGOL nozzles than the 3.4 inch diameter of the 1/45 scale kit.
    Yeah, let's talk!
    Last edited by MaxQ; 14th May 2017 at 06:04 AM.
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Just because I'm away from home doesn't mean I stop working. Adding details to the command module has taken many, many hours (and uncovered a few bugs in the development version of FreeCAD!), but I'm liking the results. I'll still have to adjust the base size a little before the final print, but here it is:

    Attachment 319841Attachment 319842
    Kudos on your FreeCAD work!! All of those models are beautiful! I didn't have the patience to add the naughty bits in SolidWorks, let alone FreeCAD.

    Bravo Zulu!

  9. #159
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    Well, high tech is biting me in the butt. I got a few small pieces printed before hitting more hardware failures, but I'm stopped again. I still have options but it involves shelling out money for a 3D print service. I can't say this has been a pleasant experience. I'll look at the printer in between other steps but for now I have to plan on contracting that out.

    So, on to more conventional building. My tanks are cut to length and I've started filling spirals. The downside of using cheap mailer tubes is there's a lot of them and they're deep. This is going to require multiple passes!

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    The small tube is for the LES, with a LPR for scale

    I've also started cutting some carbon fiber. Tonight I tackle the fins. Hopefully I'll have the fin can complete by the end of the long weekend.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  10. #160
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    Help!

    Trying to get my fins laminated. My plan was to wrap the carbon fiber along the leading edge down the sides of each fin. The problem is that it's seems unable to stick to the balsa enough to keep its shape. I keeps lifting off with a far too loose wrap as a result. I can still laminate a single side, but besides doubling the time required this has quite a few of its own problems. With the single LE to TE wrap, the LE is one solid piece of CF. Laminating each side independently leaves a seam on the LE. Plus there's the potential for warping.

    Any suggestions? Would applying epoxy to the balsa first help at all?

    At the moment, I have 2 useless fins, and 2 laminated on one side only. Good thing I made spares!

    On the positive side, the seal a meal device is working great for vacuum bagging
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Help!

    Trying to get my fins laminated. My plan was to wrap the carbon fiber along the leading edge down the sides of each fin. The problem is that it's seems unable to stick to the balsa enough to keep its shape. I keeps lifting off with a far too loose wrap as a result. I can still laminate a single side, but besides doubling the time required this has quite a few of its own problems. With the single LE to TE wrap, the LE is one solid piece of CF. Laminating each side independently leaves a seam on the LE. Plus there's the potential for warping.

    Any suggestions? Would applying epoxy to the balsa first help at all?

    At the moment, I have 2 useless fins, and 2 laminated on one side only. Good thing I made spares!

    On the positive side, the seal a meal device is working great for vacuum bagging
    This is why I'm waiting for you to do it first.
    Ok...Ok....I kid, I kid.

    I'm looking at this CF - fin exercise soon myself.
    Most articles on T to T CF are done one side at a time....but I'm sure there are some exceptions out there....
    Maybe they'll chime in...help us out.
    I thought I had seen some postings where they clamp a thick piece of mylar or plastic on two SEPERATE pieces of the CF on each side of the fin to compress it while it cures - and deal with cleaning up the LE overlap later.
    Of course you would have to keep the overlap minimal.....that CF stuff is not the easiest stuff to trim up.
    Last edited by MaxQ; 26th May 2017 at 01:20 AM.
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  12. #162
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    Well, today's results are in and they're not good. The ones I treated on one side overlapped wayyyy too much, so I've effectively got a shoddy CF coat on the B side. I was able to remove the CF from the messed up fins I'd done earlier, so I still have some test fins to play with.

    My next plan is to pre-crease the CF at the leading edge. If it keeps its form I should be okay. I have some CF under some heavy books now to see if that will help it keep its crease. More to follow I guess.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  13. #163
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    Saran wrap plus sand? I use a gallon baggie of plaster of paris powder to do conformal pressing.

    Need to get a vacuum rig one of these days....

  14. #164
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    The problem isn't holding it in place while it sets, it's getting it in place to begin with. I really think pre-creasing (folding it in half) will help. right now it keeps lifting off of the wood.

    I'm using the seal a meal system as my vacuum rig and its working great. And it's cheap!
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  15. #165
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    Well, I think that may have worked. We'll see in a few hours...

    It's still tricky getting it all into place without lifting off of the surface. The vacuum bagging (or applied weight) is definitely necessary in this case.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  16. #166
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    Success! I guess the trick is to have the CF pre-formed so it can keep its shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    I thought I had seen some postings where they clamp a thick piece of mylar or plastic on two SEPERATE pieces of the CF on each side of the fin to compress it while it cures - and deal with cleaning up the LE overlap later.
    Of course you would have to keep the overlap minimal.....that CF stuff is not the easiest stuff to trim up.
    It's actually not too bad if you time it right. The key to the trimming is catching it at the "rubbery" stage before it fully cures. For me, using West Systems 105/206, this is in the 8-9 hour range. You can do a rough trim then and set it aside to fully cure before final sanding/grinding/whatever.

    One down, seven plus spares to go...
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Success! I guess the trick is to have the CF pre-formed so it can keep its shape.

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    It's actually not too bad if you time it right. The key to the trimming is catching it at the "rubbery" stage before it fully cures. For me, using West Systems 105/206, this is in the 8-9 hour range. You can do a rough trim then and set it aside to fully cure before final sanding/grinding/whatever.

    One down, seven plus spares to go...
    Catching it during the "leather" stage makes trimming a lot easier for sure, looks like this build is coming along nicely.
    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rharshberger View Post
    Catching it during the "leather" stage makes trimming a lot easier for sure, looks like this build is coming along nicely.
    Leather, rubber...

    I have "Sometimers". Sometimes I remember and sometimes I don't!
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  19. #169
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    they look awesome Dave! The bad thing about the Saturn 1b is that they have eight fins....the cool thing about the Saturn 1b is that she has eight cool looking raked fins.....

  20. #170
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    Well, I now have a bunch of fins ready for sanding and installation. Here they are ready for the freezer

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    For the most part they turned out pretty well. They have 2 layers of CF and one of fiberglass that will allow me to do any sanding without compromising the underlying layers. In particular, the trailing edge and the tips will have to be sanded smooth.

    They didn't all turn out perfect. This one had the fiberglass shift when vacuum sealing. That's why I made extra!

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    That's why I made extra

    But the net result is a box full of fins ready for attachment

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    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  21. #171
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    with all of those extra fins...looks like you will have to build another 1b...maybe white tank version??

    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Well, I now have a bunch of fins ready for sanding and installation. Here they are ready for the freezer

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    For the most part they turned out pretty well. They have 2 layers of CF and one of fiberglass that will allow me to do any sanding without compromising the underlying layers. In particular, the trailing edge and the tips will have to be sanded smooth.

    They didn't all turn out perfect. This one had the fiberglass shift when vacuum sealing. That's why I made extra!

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    That's why I made extra

    But the net result is a box full of fins ready for attachment

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRick View Post
    with all of those extra fins...looks like you will have to build another 1b...maybe white tank version??
    Those aren't extras, and if I try this again shoot me!

    (Hmmm.... maybe.... thinking Saturn I though - SA-5)
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  23. #173
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    Fins are in! 8 fins x 4 hours minimum set time per fin = one full weekend.

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    The white plastic piece kept the shape of the engine skirt while allowing me access for gluing. All that remains are filleting, sanding, filling, sanding, priming, sanding,... whose idea was this anyways?

    I've also got four of the tanks well along on the priming-sanding cycle.

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    With so much high tech tooling letting me down, it was nice to be able to make a drying jig with 4 dowels and a piece of plywood.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    Fins are in! 8 fins x 4 hours minimum set time per fin = one full weekend.

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    The white plastic piece kept the shape of the engine skirt while allowing me access for gluing. All that remains are filleting, sanding, filling, sanding, priming, sanding,... whose idea was this anyways?

    I've also got four of the tanks well along on the priming-sanding cycle.

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    With so much high tech tooling letting me down, it was nice to be able to make a drying jig with 4 dowels and a piece of plywood.
    I really like that white plastic bracing in the fin can ......was that 3D printed component?
    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxQ View Post
    I really like that white plastic bracing in the fin can ......was that 3D printed component?
    It is. I'm having some vibration issues that are preventing me from making detailed pieces, but rude and crude like this is fine.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  26. #176
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    Just got back from my latest trip. There's just one week to URRF. I've taken the week off to do nothing but rocketry... hopefully the weather and jet lag will cooperate! It's going to be tight but I'm pretty sure I can make it flyable in time. (No 'Go Fever' though... if it's not ready, it's not ready)

    When I left, I had accomplished one thing. I'd created a custom board that will allow me to do continuity checks of each of my clustered motors independently, as weell as tie two timers in there for redundancy. Basically it's just LEDs, resistors to limit current, and diodes to make sure it goes the right way. This will mount inside the rocket allowing me to do a final check before launching. I messed up a couple of details though. The original thought was to use a cell battery mounted on the back, but I can't attach that after I attach the terminal blocks, and I can't attach the terminal blocks after I attach that. Oops! So I adjusted the resistor values for a 9V battery and soldered a connector in place. When I tried putting the terminal blocks in place, the holes were too small. I tried filing the posts down to size, but one lost connection in the process and got stuck when I tried to remove it for the board. This definitely calls for a V2.0, but instead I went to one of the other boards (minimum batch was 3 and I'll solder connectors in place instead.

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    Also, with all the 3D printer issues I'd been having, there was no way I was going to be able to print all the pieces I needed in time. So I used 3dhubs.com to get my capsule printed when I was away. The results aren't perfect, but they're pretty darned good and I can work with this!

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    So the push begins today. I need to paint and finish the tanks and skirt before I can assemble them. Painting after assembly would be very difficult... at least for the tanks. So that's the first step.

    Stay tuned folks! This could get exciting!
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  27. #177
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    So Dave, how was your weekend? Three words: prime, sand, repeat.

    I started by (finally!) attaching the base plate. The tubes shown are for alignment. The final ones won't be put in until the tanks are in place. The original plan was to make the tanks long, but that made alignment way too difficult. So plan B.

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    When faced with the problem of keeping this upright so the glue could set, I went with a low tech standby. Tape it to the table leg!

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    Then back to priming, sanding, and repeating.

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    I'll add details to the tanks tonight, then one more priming and on to painting! The fin can needs more filling and sanding first.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  28. #178
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    In the meantime, I'm still adding details to the upper stage. Using a technique I saw in the NAR Facebook forum, I used a laser level too line up my features. I really should have thought of this before! Due to deviations in the body tubes, and compounding errors, it's hard to get everything lined up fore to aft. This works wonders!

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    Using a full scale print out of a scan from David Week's amazing drawings, I started to mark feature locations.

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    I started adding the upper radiators on the service module, but decided to pause at this point. This thing needs nose weight. I'd always intended to fill the space between the outer airframe and the inner blue tube core with epoxy and BBs. I figured I should do that first in case it became exothermic and started melting plastic. It's a good thing I did! Heat wasn't the issue... leaking epoxy was! It seemed to bleed through the fiberglass! Is that even possible? Thinking it was a leak, I started wrapping the joint with masking tape, but it only seemed to help a little.

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    So now I have 6 Kg of nose weight and a lot of epoxy to sand off. Le sigh.
    David Carter
    NAR 98850, TRA 16834, Level 3
    http://www.psc473.org/ http://urrg.us/

    90% of rocketry is sanding! (And a little bit of cursing...)

  29. #179
    Join Date
    19th February 2017
    Location
    The world, probably
    Posts
    193
    Where do you get your PCB prints? I have a simple staging controller made in Autodesk's Circuits.io but I haven't been able to find a ton of information about printing.
    NAR #217204

    crmrc.org

  30. #180
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Virginia - Central
    Posts
    3,813
    Quote Originally Posted by grandcross View Post
    So Dave, how was your weekend? Three words: prime, sand, repeat.

    I started by (finally!) attaching the base plate. The tubes shown are for alignment. The final ones won't be put in until the tanks are in place. The original plan was to make the tanks long, but that made alignment way too difficult. So plan B.

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    When faced with the problem of keeping this upright so the glue could set, I went with a low tech standby. Tape it to the table leg!

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    Then back to priming, sanding, and repeating.

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    I'll add details to the tanks tonight, then one more priming and on to painting! The fin can needs more filling and sanding first.
    Looks real solid.....that's one hefty bird.
    I like the build techniques.
    Hope you can get it done , I'd like to see it fly, but don't burn yourself out!

    We got two categories of pilots around here. We got your prime pilots that get all the hot planes, and we got your pud-knockers who DREAM about getting the hot planes.
    Now what are you two pud-knockers gonna have?... Huh?
    Pancho Barnes-
    The Right Stuff
    http://www.mwavs.com/0053148414/M4RS...udknockers.m4r

    Tripoli #2747

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