3 Estes motors CATO on the same day from the same pack.

I kept all the casings, the code on the casings are: A 01 12 16. I will rebuild the rockets and fly them again, I do not want my flying buddies to be put off by these events, so I will set up another fly this weekend and after a cookout at my place!!!
Thanks everyone!

Pepe

Yea fill out a mess. We're closing in on that "one millionth CATO" required for action

I agree with you 100% David. What does a MESS report do for us flyers. Who runs the MESS? Its just a big MESS

crossfire said:

I agree with you 100% David. What does a MESS report do for us flyers. Who runs the MESS? Its just a big MESS

Click to expand...

I get the idea. And gone throught my position 100 times just to get flamed for "not caring" But the issues are simple, and it's not just low reporting by fliers.

-they don't get production numbers from the manufacture. Right there, the whole idea is shot and of zero firm value.
-It's reported by fliers, not clubs. If clubs tracked failures, reporting would be better, but then you've got everyone out there who is flying alone, so that's useless for Class 1 motors.
-data isn't reported to fliers, so who's going to bother getting involved in the process, if they're taken out of it

The manufacturers already have a handle on the issue. Warranty claims are the best gauge of a motor's safety. Require them to report these claims via the NFPA. Wham. Problems solved.

DavidMcCann said:

Yea fill out a mess. We're closing in on that "one millionth CATO" required for action

Click to expand...

Thank you for enumerating part of the work done by the S&T group.

crossfire said:

I agree with you 100% David. What does a MESS report do for us flyers. Who runs the MESS? Its just a big MESS

Click to expand...

Was there something in the link in this post that didn't answer your oh, so serious questions?

KennB said:

Was there something in the link in this post that didn't answer your oh, so serious questions?

Click to expand...

Yes, proof of any statistical value of the system. It compares an unknown number, against a faulty number, and reports it only to people who A) have better data already, and B)Have a conflicting interest.

If you have a formula for comparing an unknown to a faulty number, please share it with us.


You're honestly better watching Facebook and the propulsion threads here for complaints.

100% false as proven by multiple R&D reports/testing.

To form a crack, you must hit them with a hammer.

Dropping will not crack them.

Bluegillbronco2 said:

I heard somewhere that when droped or handled roughly the BP can crack and form holes that can cause these CATO. I guess it is always possible that somere in shipping or you handling it that they got droped and cracked. Maybe someone should do some tests were they smash them then static fire to see it it is true.

Click to expand...

shreadvector said:

100% false as proven by multiple R&D reports/testing.

To form a crack, you must hit them with a hammer.

Dropping will not crack them.

Click to expand...

Has the R&D team found the mystic fairies that keep killing E9's with hammers?

This thread actually scares me. I just put together the Estes STM-012 and planed on using it and a E9 to break 1,000 ft...

Bluegillbronco2 said:

This thread actually scares me. I just put together the Estes STM-012 and planed on using it and a E9 to break 1,000 ft...

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I have MANY e9-4 and E9-6 left over and one of my favorite motors. CATOed 2 and 1 D12-0 so far and filled out reports. ESTES honored them by sending my new rockets and new motor 3 pack. Honestly I am worried to use them as well. Time for a reloadable!
Maybe someone can come up with 3D printed fins and NC that E9 just slide into and fly for sacrifice.

Bluegillbronco2 said:

This thread actually scares me. I just put together the Estes STM-012 and planed on using it and a E9 to break 1,000 ft...

Click to expand...

CATOs suck. CATOs happen. Here is my 2 cents. Review the posts in this thread for the date codes that have been reported.

If your motors have one of those date codes don't use 'um.

If your motors don't have one of those date codes it's mission control decision time.

Fly 'um (that would be my choice, for what that's worth) -or-

Get some Aerotech 24mm single use or reloadable motors.

Fly with a glad heart and no fear !

The Aerotech disposable E15 would work nicely for you. It'll get off the rod a lot quicker than the E9, but not crazy.

It sucks to loose a rocket like that- I have had 3 now in 4 years on e9'8s and have vowed to never fly one again. See avatar pic-
The upside is, Estes is VERY good about making things right- at least for me they have been. Good Luck.

We wen't through a large batch of catos a few years ago, I forget the codes, but they were in the bad batches as reported to me by a rocket vendor. I started storing my e motors better, in a cool, dry and stable environment, and we have not had a single cato since. We fly alot of e9-8's, probably have flown about 100 in a row without a cato at this point. We did cato an a-10 last summer though......

David, I understand your points about both the lack of data and the lack of context to put it in. But I have serious doubts that any changes to -force- clubs or manufacturers to take on additional reporting burden and/or reveal commercially sensitive data are forthcoming [for a hobby product that nearly never leads to fatalities].

A scan of rocketreviews.com flight logs does reveal a little more context. At least people report both good flights and bad. It is a small number of fliers, but it's openly accessible. The motor search page shows the most recent 100 records - so you can even get an idea of how popular motors are by looking at how far back it takes to get to 100, if it even get there.

For instance,
E9 - 8 CATO / 118 records (clusters added in) since 4/2014, 100/27months
E12 - 3/43 since 6/2012, 43/49 months
A10T - 2/100ish since 5/2014, 100/26 months
C11 - 1/100ish since 9/2013, 100/34 months
A3T (64 months), A8 (11 months), B6 (10 months), C6 (9 months), D12 (10 months) - 0/100ish - each
E16 - 0/6 since 5/2015 6/14 months
F15 - 0/10 since 5/2015 10/15 months

And for comparison -
AT D15, 3 CATOS, 9 delay failures /100ish, 168 months.
AT F39, 0 catoes, 2 delay failures /100ish, 84 months

Only 1 CATO report in rocketreviews listed the lot number, though a couple noted they were anticipated CATOs, flying from know bad lots. I must have found aerostadt's list previously.

It occurs to me that if one wants to generate a better, and end user generated, data set, then one needs a killer app that _happens_ to collect the data while providing tools/services the end users want. Rocketreviews is a start - at least people log both good and bad flights. If they listed lot numbers it would be better. If the app could automatically send the MESS report, it would mean one stop data entry, and could prompt for missing info to help mistake proof the process.

To recap, the known problem lot numbers in the thread:
C11
A 11 08 10

E9
09-04-12
06-28-11
06-14-01 A
A 01 12 16 [new this thread]
A 09 15 14 [new]

E12
A 08-18-11
A 11 15 11

My E9-4 that catoed was from A 09 15 14.

Charles_McG said:

To recap, the known problem lot numbers in the thread:
E9
09-04-12
06-28-11
06-14-01 A
A 01 12 16 [new this thread]
A 09 15 14 [new]

E12
A 08-18-11
A 11 15 11

Click to expand...

THANK YOU for that research. It's a valuable addition to the store of knowledge here and is now a .txt file in my "Motors" subdirectory.

Winston said:

THANK YOU for that research. It's a valuable addition to the store of knowledge here and is now a .txt file in my "Motors" subdirectory.

Click to expand...

What that shows me is that from 2001 to 2016, Estes hasn't addressed this problem.

The E9 and E12 both look like a 1 in 15 CATO rate.

And to me it looks continuing - but episodic. We don't know how many batches codes are out there.

Here on TRF, we could set up a thread like the Annual Newton Tally that some like to participate in, and do a tally of batch codes, flights and CATOs. It would take a little thought to make it as easy to update and roll forward as the Newton Tally.

While I've only flown about a dozen E9's over the years I've only experience 1 CATO. at an ECRM contest my daughter and I were both flying E-eggloft Alitude I purchased only one pack of E9-4's for the even assuming only making a single flight each. Kathleen chose one motor I took the other..we were flying identical custom Egg lofters. She took 1st place in A division, Mine Cato'ed completely destroying my model.
Since then I've flown 10 other E9-4 & 6 motors without problem.

Also remember These 24mm motors are more prone to Heat cycle damage then most others. When did you buy and are you sure they did not spend any time in a 145deg Trailer on the way to your supplier? When and where you purchase motors make a world of difference.

So, John, you are at about one in a dozen, which seems to be the identified failure rate.

I think most people who are experiencing these catoes are having them in moderate temperatures. It is impossible to know how long or at what temperature any motor spent on a delivery truck, regardless of who the dealer is. Both of my E9 catoes happened in the summer, where the outside temp was somewhere just shy of 90. But of all of my oodles of Estes motor flights, I have two E9 catoes and 0 A, B, C or F catoes (I've never flown a D).

Micromeister said:

Also remember These 24mm motors are more prone to Heat cycle damage then most others. When did you buy and are you sure they did not spend any time in a 145deg Trailer on the way to your supplier? When and where you purchase motors make a world of difference.

Click to expand...

Exactly. If not stored properly, BP motors where the propellant needs to remain intimately bonded to the casing wall and nozzle can lose that bond from grain expansion and contraction over time due to temperature swings.

I edited my consolidated list to include the C11 CATO I had last year.

I myself have had 3 E9 CATOs in a row, from 3 different lots, all on the same day, with NONE of them on the 'known punk' list. For the record, I filed reports and called/emailed Estes with the results and packaging pics.

The real suck here is that no matter how many times a thread like this happens, all Estes ever does is send out another pack of rocket grenades and sometimes a replacement kit (if they blew up one of theirs).

There are several threads and web references debunking the 'temp cycling' and the 'cracks from handling' myth. Even if they were confirmed, the fact that nothing has changed and that seemingly random CATOs happen quite often with these things seems to indicate that something is way way off with the formulation of the E9 solids, as I assume that the process of mixing/packing/etc would be the same for all sizes of BP motors.

I commiserate with the OP. I will never, ever again give Estes any money for their E9 explodomotors.

Bat-mite said:

So, John, you are at about one in a dozen, which seems to be the identified failure rate.

I think most people who are experiencing these catoes are having them in moderate temperatures. It is impossible to know how long or at what temperature any motor spent on a delivery truck, regardless of who the dealer is. Both of my E9 catoes happened in the summer, where the outside temp was somewhere just shy of 90. But of all of my oodles of Estes motor flights, I have two E9 catoes and 0 A, B, C or F catoes (I've never flown a D).

Click to expand...

Not So John S.:
If you buy your motors during the summer you can be almost assured that they have spent between 3 & 5 days in a Tractor Trailer where the ambient temperature can average 145degs F during the day. If you buy locally you can always check with the clerks or owner as to when his inventory is purchased and approximate turnover. Personally I NEVER buy motors locally without positive answers to those questions, Further I've found the best practice for ensuring my motors were not heat cycled on the way to me is to buy them direct from the manufacturer and/or Trusted Vendors placing my orders only during the late fall, winter or early spring. Since starting this practice I have not had a single Cato of any BP motor 1/8A thur F. Luck..has Nothing to do with it. It's all in asking the right questions of your vendors and buying during times of lower temperatures.

Also: if you think your motors may have been heat cycled assume the worst condition, Say 145Degs f. as long as you fly them within 75Deg of the highest temp to which they were exposed (In this case ambient air temp 70deg and above) they will more then likely be OK. That Said: Some blow through Cato's may happen anyway if the heat cycling was severe enough.
In all my flying: I've only seen a few of my own Cato's but have seen plenty of C, D13, D12 and E and plenty of APCP cato's by others. In most cases these BP motors were purchased from a local vendor, or discount place like Wal-Mart, on the day of the launch during summer and fall.

crossfire said:

The E9s have been problems for years. We all know it but what has been done? Nothing. I have never seen one not cato.

Click to expand...

Saw several fly fine at the NARAM sport launch last weekend. I think I saw one E9 Cato, plus a couple of D12 catos.

aerostadt said:

Can you list the serial numbers?

The bad ones I have for E-9's are as follows:
09-04-12
06-28-11
06-14-01 A

However, these are from several years ago. Your serial numbers may be different.

Click to expand...

I can second that top date code. I've had 2 E9-6's from that date code go boom.

I`ve never flown E9s before, but I had a pack from a few years back, and my buddy also had some that he bought 2 years ago.

Two weeks ago (July 16/16) I decided to try one in my own version of the Estes Mean Machine........KABOOM !!!!! First time I had ever seen that before, fireballs from both ends and a loud report......very cool.Lucky for me,no damage.

My buddy loads up his original Mean machine.......KABOOM !!! another fine fire and smoke show ,tore the shock cord from the NC....easy field fix.

Reload another in mine....KABOOM !!!! Shock cord tore from motor mount, easy fix in the rocket shop.

Buddy fixes his shock cord to the NC.....3-2-1...KABOOM !!!! Estes mean Machine will be 3 feet shorter after repairs.


We decided to give the E9 firecrackers a rest for the day.

I had heard about these things, but 4 in a row....sheesh.

Paul T

sodmeister said:

I`ve never flown E9s before, but I had a pack from a few years back, and my buddy also had some that he bought 2 years ago.

Two weeks ago (July 16/16) I decided to try one in my own version of the Estes Mean Machine........KABOOM !!!!! First time I had ever seen that before, fireballs from both ends and a loud report......very cool.Lucky for me,no damage.

My buddy loads up his original Mean machine.......KABOOM !!! another fine fire and smoke show ,tore the shock cord from the NC....easy field fix.

Reload another in mine....KABOOM !!!! Shock cord tore from motor mount, easy fix in the rocket shop.

Buddy fixes his shock cord to the NC.....3-2-1...KABOOM !!!! Estes mean Machine will be 3 feet shorter after repairs.


We decided to give the E9 firecrackers a rest for the day.

I had heard about these things, but 4 in a row....sheesh.

Paul T

Click to expand...

Paul,
That's quite a story! E9's & E12's are great when they work right, but a continual surprise when they go bad. BTW do you have lot numbers for the bad motors?
Bob

I've read about the E9's reputation for CATOing, but I've flown a bunch of E9's and never had a CATO. I did buy most of them around the same time, so I probably missed any bad batches out there. I love the E9 - such a long burn time for a BP motor. The only problem I have with them is that I keep losing sight of my rockets and can't find them again (KennB can confirm this).

So luckily, I haven't had to fill out a report, and I don't have as much flying experience as a lot of you guys. But I do know that if I had a CATO, I'd hold off using the rest of that pack until I checked dates or batch numbers. I've had too much bad luck on the field to risk it!