My rocket is too dangerous. Where can I launch?

eggtimer rocketry
rocket sok
Onebadhawk
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DavidMcCann said:
All true, and I doubt it would happen often. I have seen event rules that allowed appeals to the LD or others. Mostly I'm referring to the volunteer RSO's at large events. Our LD usually acts as RSO at small launches.

At any rate though, the LD could relieve an RSO, act as rso and approve a flight, then either reinstate the so or appoint another. So in effect he can't make an RSO sign a card, but the final word is the LD, not the RSO. ( one could also argue the LD is an assigned position too...but that varies by who etc.)

obviously, even a sympathetic LD would hesitate to do anything... but its possible. I'm not saying the RSO has no authority... But if there were a disagreement, the LD has options to let a rocket fly, as the RSO has no blackball power. A rocket could get denied by one RSO....shifts change and without changes be let flown by another RSO.
Click to expand...
You are under the misconception that the FSO (safety check person) is the launch RSO. That's not how it's supposed to work at a TRA launch.

There is only 1 LD and 1 RSO for a TRA launch. They are defined positions in the TRA Safety Code and the TRA Range Safety documents. Either the LD or the RSO can prevent a launch, but the LD can not override the RSO's decision not to permit a launch. That's just not how it works, and it wouldn't come up as practice anyway as the LD appoints the RSO in the first place. At LDRS or another launch where TRABOT is present, the board could make an exception of the safety code, and then the RSO would have to yield, but that is the only exception I am aware of in TRA.
 
Nobody picked up on this odd phrasing?

Anyway, is there anywhere in the US I can launch?

Don't feed the trolls. Or terrorists.
 
bobkrech said:
You are under the misconception that the FSO (safety check person) is the launch RSO. That's not how it's supposed to work at a TRA launch.

There is only 1 LD and 1 RSO for a TRA launch. They are defined positions in the TRA Safety Code and the TRA Range Safety documents. Either the LD or the RSO can prevent a launch, but the LD can not override the RSO's decision not to permit a launch. That's just not how it works, and it wouldn't come up as practice anyway as the LD appoints the RSO in the first place. At LDRS or another launch where TRABOT is present, the board could make an exception of the safety code, and then the RSO would have to yield, but that is the only exception I am aware of in TRA.
Click to expand...

I agree the situation is unlikely, and with the close relationships, very unlikely. But to split hairs as a mental exercise.... Could an LD remove an RSO mid launch and replace him? Given his power to appoint, I'm assuming he could remove, as the LD is responsible for the RSO's actions, having appointed him.

As for the exception of the safety code by the TRABOT, they could make an exception, but just like Argonia and metal, the locals still can make whatever additional rules they like.

Again, I agree it's all highly unlikely....and the most likely event would be that a flagged rocket would be modified in some manner to be acceptable, or just so far past that no one would consider flying it. But, to split the hairs....and to argue the "final word is with the RSO" statement..... even if in our case, lets say Larry is the LD and he appoints me RSO. I pull a rocket for something and say 'no way'. It's my belief that Larry could fire me as RSO and let it fly. Of course the consequences of that would be such that it's HIGHLY unlikely to happen.

I guess the real question is once appointed, can an LD fire an RSO? Being that the LD has ultimate responsibility, I'm guessing he can. (even though my example is in a more permissive, not more restrictive manner)
 
Did your rocket look like this with fins? :wink:

1295747974681.jpg
 
CORZERO said:
I take the argument this far and not one person could close the case with this link:https://www.nar.org/safety-information/high-power-rocket-safety-code/As for metal, See line 2.A futile exercise in principle. Bring your sources, people! All I wanted was one link!
Click to expand...
Yes, it really sucks when common sense and practical reality is in conflict with an anal-retentive application of the letter of the law...:lol: I guess that's why the aluminum fins on a few of my rockets have never been challenged...:facepalm:
 
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wardini said:
The club RSO said I cannot launch my rocket. It uses 3 metal screws to hold in the electronics bay. A clear violation of the NAR guidelines?!? Anyway, is there anywhere in the US I can launch?
Click to expand...

welp, IF youre still here, I think you can see the rocket community is a huge group of people with a great sense of humor and hope you can see its rather hard to answer this question with a straight face or straight answer. some elaboration would help us help you better, which I think there were some good questions to answer.
 
rharshberger said:
There has to be more than that, please post pictures. RSOs wont usually deny a flight for 3 screws that are just holding in an AV bay.
Click to expand...

There really isn't more to it actually. There are some other items that I agreed to correct but the RSO stated I needed to also replace the 3 metal screws before he would conduct another review of the rocket. So currently the stance is, I cannot fly with those 3 metal screws.

Thanks for all the replies.
 
wardini said:
There really isn't more to it actually. There are some other items that I agreed to correct but the RSO stated I needed to also replace the 3 metal screws before he would conduct another review of the rocket. So currently the stance is, I cannot fly with those 3 metal screws.

Thanks for all the replies.
Click to expand...

Can you share exactly where you are and which launch it was at?

Your experience was so out of line with the reality of every launch that the people answering to your post have been to, it still seems like you are making this up for the fun of stirring up this forum. I am more that willing to be proved wrong, but we need more information.

Metal screws are so commonplace that we have a very hard time believing that you were denied a chance to launch.
 
Maybe it was the other items you mentioned that grounded it. Fix those and replace the screws with removable plastic rivets. Screws alone shouldn't ground a bird, but if the RSO wants them gone, then make them gone. Surely he had a good reason behind it. But now I wanna know, where u flying?

Mikey D
 
OK. I spent some time reading all of those posts. Probably more questions than I can answer. I am not trolling here but I did start the post wondering how divisive this might be and looking for a way forward to launch at the club.

What happened before this exploded was me just opening my big mouth and started talking to club members about what I wanted to accomplish in the future. I wanted to collect data using an instrument riding on a 3 inch diameter high power rocket. Max engine size is a 3 grain J motor. Altitude of about 6,000 ft. This instrument, of course, has machined metal parts. But, since this is a NAR club, I'm NOT launching that. That's for me to figure out in the future and right now I'm just going to stay within NAR guidelines. Instead of the instrument, just epoxy ballast inside of blue tube.

Well, as you can imagine, the RSO gets wind of this and suddenly my rocket gets under his scrutiny. My latest version of the rocket, wanting to stay within the NAR guidelines, probably went too far in my opinion. I had an instrument mounting coupler that contained metal, a lot of metal. That component might get called an airframe element. I asked if we could swap that out with a section of blue tube, would it be sufficient.

At that point, I thought the RSO might say yes, after another review of the rocket. But I think maybe, he just plain didn't want to deal with me anymore. I'm not really sure.

I'm not going to say the RSO made a wrong decision, just that given that those screws are part of the issue is a little aggravating. Possibly the thinking is that, since I was considering launching those metal parts in the first place, he better get a list of all the metal parts in the whole rocket before going further. Once again, I'm speculating.
 
I guess if I were a club member especially if a new one I would not want to disclose the name of the club in order to remain in good standing and be able to continue flying with said club, under favorable conditions. Like mentioned there must be a good reason for the RSO to prohibit those metal screws, most likely the land owners request.

....cross post!!
 
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wardini said:
The club RSO said I cannot launch my rocket. It uses 3 metal screws to hold in the electronics bay. A clear violation of the NAR guidelines?!? Anyway, is there anywhere in the US I can launch?
Click to expand...
Wow! Four pages of responses in one day.

If that's all he's denying your rocket launch for, your RSO is wrong for the many oh-so-obvious reasons mentioned here that are allowed: motor retainers and clips, rail buttons, recovery system links, screw eyes, eye bolts, etc.
 
Ok Dave,,
I am humbled,,
You were right,,
I'll pay you the 10 bucks when I see you,, lol...

Teddy
 
onebadhawk said:
Ok Dave,,
I am humbled,,
You were right,,
I'll pay you the 10 bucks when I see you,, lol...
Click to expand...

I only accept payment in beer from friends ;) Next time we hit Smuggler's man.



Some photos of the rocket may be cool. Aside from satisfying our curiosity, we could likely give some other options for how to mount your instruments that would be acceptable.
 
The OP asked a simple question and then let the thread sit for a day. If those responding turned it into a 4 page argument that’s on them, not the OP.

There was a thread similar to this where a club launches on property where the landowner requires no metal (IIRC, they worked around it by painting over any visible metal). Also IIRC, there was a fair amount of calls of stupidity until someone who actually knew the situation chimed in with the explanation. My bet is new Wardini here is launching with that group.

Wardini, you should be able to use plastic rivets instead of metal screws. They’re available from several vendors. Here’s one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building_Supplies/Misc_Hardware/Removable_Plastic_Rivets.
 
wardini said:
OK. I spent some time reading all of those posts. Probably more questions than I can answer. I am not trolling here but I did start the post wondering how divisive this might be and looking for a way forward to launch at the club.

What happened before this exploded was me just opening my big mouth and started talking to club members about what I wanted to accomplish in the future. I wanted to collect data using an instrument riding on a 3 inch diameter high power rocket. Max engine size is a 3 grain J motor. Altitude of about 6,000 ft. This instrument, of course, has machined metal parts. But, since this is a NAR club, I'm NOT launching that. That's for me to figure out in the future and right now I'm just going to stay within NAR guidelines. Instead of the instrument, just epoxy ballast inside of blue tube.

Well, as you can imagine, the RSO gets wind of this and suddenly my rocket gets under his scrutiny. My latest version of the rocket, wanting to stay within the NAR guidelines, probably went too far in my opinion. I had an instrument mounting coupler that contained metal, a lot of metal. That component might get called an airframe element. I asked if we could swap that out with a section of blue tube, would it be sufficient.

At that point, I thought the RSO might say yes, after another review of the rocket. But I think maybe, he just plain didn't want to deal with me anymore. I'm not really sure.

I'm not going to say the RSO made a wrong decision, just that given that those screws are part of the issue is a little aggravating. Possibly the thinking is that, since I was considering launching those metal parts in the first place, he better get a list of all the metal parts in the whole rocket before going further. Once again, I'm speculating.
Click to expand...

First off welcome to the forum. And congratulations for making a BIG splash with your first post ! :) My take is that you have a rather complex project here. Can I assume that you have a Tripoli or NAR Level 2 certification ? You'd need that to fly a J motor. Are you a member of the club ? How much lead time did you give the club launch crew about this puppy ? Or did you just show up on launch day with a rocket and smile ? :) A little heads up during design and construction may have mitigated some of the concern. Some documentation of the build is a good thing to bring when you have a project of this nature. Like most other posters here I say the screws are the least of my concerns as we've all flown rockets that used them. Love to see some pictures if you care to post any.

[edit] Almost forgot my answer to you original question. There are launches around the country that are run without the benefit (or the burden) of NAR or Tripoli oversight. BALLS in Nevada comes to mind. You might investigate these independents for this one.
 
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rcktnut said:
I guess if I were a club member especially if a new one I would not want to disclose the name of the club in order to remain in good standing and be able to continue flying with said club, under favorable conditions. Like mentioned there must be a good reason for the RSO to prohibit those metal screws, most likely the land owners request.

....cross post!!
Click to expand...

Probably, he's going to hear about this now anyway. So hopefully he doesn't take it badly. I'm not sure how much effort I should put into launching at this club when perhaps, I could accomplish all of my goals somewhere else, even if it means putting a lot of driving time in to get there. I find it hard to believe that any RSO is just going to accept this with open arms with all of these "concerns". But at the same time I think it would be pretty easy to vet the issues and let this thing fly given a qualified launch range. Having only been launching high power for 2 years, I've already seen plenty of non-regulation crap going up. I mean, didn't someone throw cell phones off their rocket to demonstrate the strength of the case? I can just imagine showing up at the club with that rocket and try to explain what I was trying to do. Exactly how do approach that?
 
Exactimator said:
There was a thread similar to this where a club launches on property where the landowner requires no metal (IIRC, they worked around it by painting over any visible metal).
Click to expand...

Wow, blatant disregard for the landowner's request for no metal.

They "worked around it"? It's a shame you condone the behavior of circumvention by deception of the landowner's request. And here I thought the OP's club sucked. So many have shamed me for expressing regard and concern for law/rules and defending "...application of the letter of the law...".

Your reference to the behavior of this particular club is a clear example of precisely why the rules must be enforced. I truly hope this eye-opening example of the general, disrespectful and intentionally disobedient club sentiment is not reflective of the TRF and nation-wide club community as a whole. However, judging by the numerous, spiteful responses of those who have shunned my defense of rules and laws within this thread I fear this is not the case.

Is the mentioned land owner aware of the club's violation of his request? What club is this? Please link to the thread that mentions this incident.
 

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