Nice, France

CzTeacherMan said:

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
To me, the solution is simple. Love...<snip>...we'd live in a much better world.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is the absolute best way. My fear is that we are too late for that. I have a hard time reconciling a methodology that applies the golden rule to people who have no difficulty killing random targets.

CzTeacherMan said:

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
To me, the solution is simple. Love. Love your family. Love your friends. Love your enemies. As we are taught by every major religion, by every bit of common sense. If I can help those near me in every way I can, I'll be doing my part to help prevent there impulse for tragedy in those around me. If everyone did that, we'd live in a much better world.

Click to expand...

H_Rocket said:

Yes, that is the absolute best way. My fear is that we are too late for that. I have a hard time reconciling a methodology that applies the golden rule to people who have no difficulty killing random targets.

Click to expand...

[video=youtube;IApvU6SMq-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IApvU6SMq-8[/video]

tmacklin said:

Christian forgiveness does not work with those who don't worship Christ.

Click to expand...

Really? Are you sure about that?

s6

stealth6 said:

[video=youtube;IApvU6SMq-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IApvU6SMq-8[/video]





Really? Are you sure about that?

s6

Click to expand...

Great, let's all hold hands...

And sing Kumbaya...

That will solve everything...

S6 - an interesting essay, and I really do believe along those lines. I just wonder if we can convince people who, for some reason, so vehemently hate us that we really are not their enemy. If not, is there a solution that is not in the realm I espoused above? As I noted, I think the challenge is dealing with people who are, IMHO, patently insane. I am at a loss for how to otherwise address people who believe our very way of life is an affront to their faith and are willing to indiscriminately maim and kill in the name of making that point. And I do not speak generally of the Muslim faith. I work with many people of that religion and find every one of them kind, thoughtful, and without exception, appalled at what is being done in the name of their faith.

The people I am considering are lunatics. Sadly, I still think the way to deal with them may be something that we might find distressing at best.

PS. John Cena does not mention the gun wielding whack job shooting unarmed and unsuspecting non-combatants in his description of ordinary people.

cwbullet said:

Very sad. We are in a state of war. We just refuse to state the obvious.

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You speak the truth. The issue is that most folks do not know history, and they do not realize that this war has been going on for a thousand years or so.

So far, we've been too scared of breaking a few eggs. The radicals know this and count on it. I think we are getting closer and closer to ordering up a bunch of omelets.

Europe and especially Great Britain and France put all this in motion over 10 years ago with very liberal immigration policies. There is no quick solution for them, this will be the new normal for
them for quite a while I fear.

There is still time for the US to avoid but not eliminate the problem. People just need to get real and face the reality of human behavior and not a wished for Nirvana.

H_Rocket said:

S6 - an interesting essay, and I really do believe along those lines. I just wonder if we can convince people who, for some reason, so vehemently hate us that we really are not their enemy. If not, is there a solution that is not in the realm I espoused above? As I noted, I think the challenge is dealing with people who are, IMHO, patently insane. I am at a loss for how to otherwise address people who believe our very way of life is an affront to their faith and are willing to indiscriminately maim and kill in the name of making that point. And I do not speak generally of the Muslim faith. I work with many people of that religion and find every one of them kind, thoughtful, and without exception, appalled at what is being done in the name of their faith.

The people I am considering are lunatics. Sadly, I still think the way to deal with them may be something that we might find distressing at best.

PS. John Cena does not mention the gun wielding whack job shooting unarmed and unsuspecting non-combatants in his description of ordinary people.

Click to expand...

AMEN!

H_Rocket said:

S6 - an interesting essay, and I really do believe along those lines. I just wonder if we can convince people who, for some reason, so vehemently hate us that we really are not their enemy. If not, is there a solution that is not in the realm I espoused above? As I noted, I think the challenge is dealing with people who are, IMHO, patently insane. I am at a loss for how to otherwise address people who believe our very way of life is an affront to their faith and are willing to indiscriminately maim and kill in the name of making that point. And I do not speak generally of the Muslim faith. I work with many people of that religion and find every one of them kind, thoughtful, and without exception, appalled at what is being done in the name of their faith.

The people I am considering are lunatics. Sadly, I still think the way to deal with them may be something that we might find distressing at best.

PS. John Cena does not mention the gun wielding whack job shooting unarmed and unsuspecting non-combatants in his description of ordinary people.

Click to expand...

In response to this idea, not necessarily specifics...
The USA/West might be able to convince people we're not the enemy... If we stopped destroying the lives, countries, and environments of so many millions/billions of people. Fact is, the industrial/commercial society we live in has cost most of the rest of the world a horrible price.
Please don't respond and say that I'm condoning or siding with terrorists. I'm not saying that at all. Nor am I a bleeding heart. I'm just someone who understands that the history of the USA and Europe is one of destruction to the rest of the world. Generations upon generations of poverty through our colonial heritage have created a desperate situation for much of the world. So desperate that many, many people will see violence as the only option, and it's not hard to imagine violence as a solution to the violence that has been wrought upon them.
Therefore more violence may be necessary on the short term, but it's not the final answer to the actual problem. We're all going to have to reconcile the damages that our nation and our way of life have created in the world. If we don't, terror will continue to be an increasing problem. If we only try to solve it with more violence, we may be able to stop it temporarily, but it will come back stronger again and again and again until it wins out and our way of life is destroyed forever.

Yes, we must defend ourselves, violently IF NECESSARY.
Yes, we must always, always be prepared for some insanity and such violence.
No, warfare and further violence will never be a final solution. Heck, WWII had a peace treaty at the end...
Yes, we must work to rectify the wrongs and move forward with love in our hearts if we want to see real, lasting change in the world.

A beacon of light in a sea of darkness.

CzTeacherMan said:

In response to this idea, not necessarily specifics...
The USA/West might be able to convince people we're not the enemy... If we stopped destroying the lives, countries, and environments of so many millions/billions of people. Fact is, the industrial/commercial society we live in has cost most of the rest of the world a horrible price.
Please don't respond and say that I'm condoning or siding with terrorists. I'm not saying that at all. Nor am I a bleeding heart. I'm just someone who understands that the history of the USA and Europe is one of destruction to the rest of the world. Generations upon generations of poverty through our colonial heritage have created a desperate situation for much of the world. So desperate that many, many people will see violence as the only option, and it's not hard to imagine violence as a solution to the violence that has been wrought upon them.
Therefore more violence may be necessary on the short term, but it's not the final answer to the actual problem. We're all going to have to reconcile the damages that our nation and our way of life have created in the world. If we don't, terror will continue to be an increasing problem. If we only try to solve it with more violence, we may be able to stop it temporarily, but it will come back stronger again and again and again until it wins out and our way of life is destroyed forever.

Yes, we must defend ourselves, violently IF NECESSARY.
Yes, we must always, always be prepared for some insanity and such violence.
No, warfare and further violence will never be a final solution. Heck, WWII had a peace treaty at the end...
Yes, we must work to rectify the wrongs and move forward with love in our hearts if we want to see real, lasting change in the world.

Click to expand...

Oddly, I agree with parts of what you say. I think we try to foist our beliefs on people and use economic force to hammer that home. I mean everybody wants democracy - right? I've always wondered why? Maybe some people are OK with their heritage and culture without our social mores being overlaid on them. It is possible what you say is true, that we have created many of these problems. I just find it hard to think long when so many are being hurt in the short term. The interesting point is that little or none of this occurs here, where "The Great Satan" lives. Either our intelligence/security is too great to overcome, or the fruitcakes find it easier to strike where they stand a better chance of getting away with it. Other that seeing us wring our hands, what could they possibly hope to accomplish by mowing down 80 innocents on a french street? We will happily go on with what we do while feeling sad about the loss of life.

The point that eludes me is; if we have caused these problems -> why are they so busy killing each other?

I am curious -> how would you propose we go about achieving this goal
No specifics, just food for thought points.

Eric and all those believing in whole love thing...

I think this belief is a matter of age...
This belief is most prevalent in younger people, myself included..
When you live long enough and have seen enough of this behavior you come to realize that love in your heart isn't going to change this...
Please,, for a moment,, look at this incident from the terrorists point of view...
Can you imagine what his eyes saw through the windshield of that truck...
Can you put yourself or anyone else you know in that drivers seat and do this ??
Are you capable ??? Think hard and deep,, put yourself there...
In order for the love in your heart to stop these acts you must be capable to do what they are doing...
If as hard as you try you don't think no matter the cause that you are not able to commit this act
then you should understand that the love you speak of is in your heart and not anywhere else..
It is human nature to see all around us what we are inside...
We in this country as loving, caring people are taught above all else that a single human life
has value far above and beyond all else...
These people on the other side of the planet are brought up with different beliefs..
They are different then you are,, in their heart,, in their mind,, and in their soul...
This is why they can commit an act that you are not capable of no matter the reason or cause..
And this is why you can not understand why or how they could do such a thing
when all they have to do is feel and see the love and they'll stop doing these things...
We as humans all see all around us what we are...
A thief always makes certain to lock his car doors and house and garage up securely
because he is always concerned about being broken into and having his things stolen....

I find this crap so upsetting I don't watch the news too much anymore...

Teddy

Martyrs, Virgins and Grapes

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/opinion/martyrs-virgins-and-grapes.html

Excerpts:

It has long been a staple of Islam that Muslim martyrs will go to paradise and marry 72 black-eyed virgins. But a growing body of rigorous scholarship on the Koran points to a less sensual paradise -- and, more important, may offer a step away from fundamentalism and toward a reawakening of the Islamic world.

...the same tools that historians, linguists and archaeologists have applied to the Bible for about 150 years are beginning to be applied to the Koran. The results are explosive.

For example, the Koran says martyrs going to heaven will get ''hur,'' and the word was taken by early commentators to mean ''virgins,'' hence those 72 consorts. But in Aramaic, hur meant ''white'' and was commonly used to mean ''white grapes.''

Some martyrs arriving in paradise may regard a bunch of grapes as a letdown. But the scholar who pioneered this pathbreaking research, using the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg for security reasons, noted in an e-mail interview that grapes made more sense in context because the Koran compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes.

Dr. Luxenberg's analysis, which has drawn raves from many scholars, also transforms the meaning of the verse that is sometimes cited to require women to wear veils. Instead of instructing pious women ''to draw their veils over their bosoms,'' he says, it advises them to ''buckle their belts around their hips.''

If religion were allowed here, I could demonstrate effectively that Islam is an illogical, untenable, flawed belief system. But since I'm not allowed, mum's the word.

Meanwhile, here is some humor:

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...as-severe-problem-islamist-radicalisation-why

It is not possible for rational people to have a peaceful coexistence with irrational people. The people who commit these atrocities are not rational whether their motivation is based upon religious dogma or garden variety hatred.

H_Rocket said:

PS. John Cena does not mention the gun wielding whack job shooting unarmed and unsuspecting non-combatants in his description of ordinary people.

Click to expand...

Like Anders Breivik, Jared Loughner, Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Syed Farook, Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Roof, Robert Dear, Elliot Rodger, Aaron Alexis, Jiverly Wong, Omar Mateen, Wade Michael Page, Nidal Hasan, Seung Hui Cho, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, and on, and on , and on........

But yeah, let's round up all the Muslims because they are the enemy right?

First of all, f*ck all these guys. I'm not claiming any religious superiority myself, and I'm certainly not saying "kumbaya, everything's fine". Not by a long shot. These scum ARE the enemy and they SHOULD be rooted out and put down.

Second, the ones that who are perpetuating their evil for "religious" reasons are the worst of the lot, I agree. Anyone who uses their stupid little fairy story book to devalue the life of others, to view anyone who doesn't follow their particular fairy story as less than human and deserving of death, to judge everyone else as "other", and to justify their own psychopathic and murderous impulses does not get my sympathy. Trust me, I very much want bad things to happen to them. I'm not proud of it, but I too have a lot of rage and anger to deal with.

Third, the thing that is so maddening/frustrating is that I see so many people on "our side" doing exactly this same thing. Exactly. They feel that their little fairy book is the right one (ironically because their own god is about "love"!), and they use it to call for "war" on the others. In their views and "solutions to the problem" they are essentially identical to these a-hole "radical jihadists". The only thing that makes them just a little different is that the "jihadists" in question actually go out and act, while the others simply spew and rant in front of their computer keyboard. Both of them are justifying hate, destruction, and murder on a flimsy little fairy book, and both of them are SO convinced that they are on the side of the righteous. (And, oddly, both of their fairy books which they hold so dear to their hearts tell them to act otherwise).

Fight the enemy? Absolutely - hunt them down, root them out, and destroy them. I got no problem at all with that.

But who is that enemy? Is it all Muslims? Is it religious people in general? How about liberal pacifists? Or maybe it's gun owners? Maybe it's Trump or Hillary supporters? LGBTQ folk or Bundy Ranch militia? Could it be black/colored folk? Maybe it's fans of the rival to your favorite football team?

Here's the message in that video......blanket judgments (and executions) of entire classes/races of people are wrong, and are not worthy of actual patriotic Americans. We can do better than that, and we should.
I am not saying this is easy. Or even comfortable all the time. But I've got lots of friends and family whom I truly love and respect that are sometimes WAY on the opposite side of me on given issues. We argue and disagree sometimes. We even hurt each other when things get out of hand. But we CAN still come together as friends, as family, as Americans, and as human beings.......and we must. The alternative - putting up a fence between us, passing ultimate judgment on each other, and firing shots to kill over that fence - is simply not acceptable.

Muslims as a whole are not the enemy ..... nor are Christians, or gun enthusiasts, or vegetarians, or Fox News watchers, or queer folks, or latinos, or people who buy way too much Duck Dynasty gear. The closest thing we have to an actual category of "enemy" are people who think that violence/murder is the answer, that in particular use a little fairy book to justify this evil nonsense, and that act on it or plan to. So let's start looking at who that really is, huh?

s6

tmacklin said:

Maybe the next massacre will be next week in Cleveland, Ohio. Billions of U.S. tax dollars being spent for "homeland security" yet we can't identify the enemy within. That would be "racial profiling", so we resort the quaint notion that being nice to our enemies will magically make them hate us less. Christian forgiveness does not work with those who don't worship Christ.

Click to expand...

While horrific, especially for the victims and their families, all of these events are minor statistical blips in death statistics, not even remotely worth turning entire nations into paranoid police states. Yet, because of the apparent inability of people to put such incidents into proper perspective and the corporate media's desire to attract viewer share by focusing on such events, that's what's happening and, sadly, I don't think anything short of a police state like that of the former Soviet Union or its satellites would stop terrorist acts from occurring. Do we want that?

I DO believe we are very close to another attack on THIS country.
I think it's going to be an attack on our power grid and it's going to put us back in the 1800's.
There is so much hate in the world and whats sad is that all our kids and grandkids will be left to deal with it.
Somebody is going to set off some kind of Nuke (dirty or otherwise), in the near future. I HOPE to hell I'm wrong.

Bat-mite said:

Meanwhile, here is some humor:

Click to expand...

Ok, that is pretty funny.
s6

CzTeacherMan said:

In response to this idea, not necessarily specifics...
The USA/West might be able to convince people we're not the enemy... If we stopped destroying the lives, countries, and environments of so many millions/billions of people. Fact is, the industrial/commercial society we live in has cost most of the rest of the world a horrible price.
Please don't respond and say that I'm condoning or siding with terrorists. I'm not saying that at all. Nor am I a bleeding heart. I'm just someone who understands that the history of the USA and Europe is one of destruction to the rest of the world. Generations upon generations of poverty through our colonial heritage have created a desperate situation for much of the world. So desperate that many, many people will see violence as the only option, and it's not hard to imagine violence as a solution to the violence that has been wrought upon them.
Therefore more violence may be necessary on the short term, but it's not the final answer to the actual problem. We're all going to have to reconcile the damages that our nation and our way of life have created in the world. If we don't, terror will continue to be an increasing problem. If we only try to solve it with more violence, we may be able to stop it temporarily, but it will come back stronger again and again and again until it wins out and our way of life is destroyed forever.

Yes, we must defend ourselves, violently IF NECESSARY.
Yes, we must always, always be prepared for some insanity and such violence.
No, warfare and further violence will never be a final solution. Heck, WWII had a peace treaty at the end...
Yes, we must work to rectify the wrongs and move forward with love in our hearts if we want to see real, lasting change in the world.

Click to expand...

As history has proved, violence is often necessary. For example,the only reason that WWII ended with a peace treaty is because we nuked Japan. We flexed some serious muscle on the world stage, showed Mussolini we were not to be screwed with, and simultaneously avoided millions of Japanese and American deaths through a long 24+ month island hopping/ground campaign. There are many other plausible theories why we dropped the nukes, but the end result was the same. The US played big brother on the world stage AGAIN.

Terrorism/ISIS/ISLE will be given the sharp end of the stick by the US, its just a matter of time.

rfjustin said:

Terrorism/ISIS/ISLE will be given the sharp end of the stick by the US, its just a matter of time.

Click to expand...

No No No, we need more James Taylor.......

tmacklin said:

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...as-severe-problem-islamist-radicalisation-why

It is not possible for rational people to have a peaceful coexistence with irrational people. The people who commit these atrocities are not rational whether their motivation is based upon religious dogma or garden variety hatred.

Click to expand...

+1..
Well said...

S6,,
+1...
For sure...

Justin F..
Yes,, +1,,100%,, but when...
At the time you're referring to 60 years ago, this country was a very different place then it is today...
IMHO the amount of crap we will have to endure before the politically correct allow us to take the necessary action will be mind bogleing...

Teddy

rfjustin said:

As history has proved, violence is often necessary. For example,the only reason that WWII ended with a peace treaty is because we nuked Japan. We flexed some serious muscle on the world stage, showed Mussolini we were not to be screwed with, and simultaneously avoided millions of Japanese and American deaths through a long 24+ month island hopping/ground campaign. There are many other plausible theories why we dropped the nukes, but the end result was the same. The US played big brother on the world stage AGAIN.

Terrorism/ISIS/ISLE will be given the sharp end of the stick by the US, its just a matter of time.

Click to expand...

Yes, agreed. Problem, as S6 pointed out, is... Who do we nuke this time? We don't even know who the enemy is... Certainly wasn't Iraq, but we sure spent plenty on that one.
I'm all for overwhelming force. When it can be used effectively. And accurately.

jderimig said:

No No No, we need more James Taylor.......

Click to expand...

Needs more cowbell...

jderimig said:

Europe and especially Great Britain and France put all this in motion over 10 years ago with very liberal immigration policies. There is no quick solution for them, this will be the new normal for
them for quite a while I fear.

There is still time for the US to avoid but not eliminate the problem. People just need to get real and face the reality of human behavior and not a wished for Nirvana.

Click to expand...

Elimination is the operative word.

CzTeacherMan said:

Yes, agreed. Problem, as S6 pointed out, is... Who do we nuke this time? We don't even know who the enemy is... Certainly want Iraq, but we sure spent plenty on that one.

Click to expand...

There is the self proclaimed capital of Isis called Rakka...perhaps that should be removed from the map to make a point.

Winston said:

While horrific, especially for the victims and their families, all of these events are minor statistical blips in death statistics, not even remotely worth turning entire nations into paranoid police states. Yet, because of the apparent inability of people to put such incidents into proper perspective and the corporate media's desire to attract viewer share by focusing on such events, that's what's happening and, sadly, I don't think anything short of a police state like that of the former Soviet Union or its satellites would stop terrorist acts from occurring. Do we want that?

Click to expand...

Statistically minor, yes, but not insignificant. The occasional plane crash or mass murder always generates interest while the daily average of 44 murders in the U.S. is largely ignored. As for "the media", they are despicable and often seem to be disappointed when the death tolls do not meet their expectations. If a full fledged police state ever does emerge in the United States, the media will be singing the praises of the cops instead of cheering the hoodlums chanting, "No Justice, No Peace." And no, I don't want to see the emergence of a police state in my country.

CzTeacherMan said:

Yes, agreed. Problem, as S6 pointed out, is... Who do we nuke this time? We don't even know who the enemy is... Certainly want Iraq, but we sure spent plenty on that one.

Click to expand...

That does hit the nail on the head, doesn't it? We can't just go in and start bombing civilians. We don't know which people, in this country or abroad, who are not now members of ISIS or ISIL, will be tomorrow. It's not like traditional war in which you know you need to capture the capital and the leadership of a geometrically specific nation.

These people are all over the place, and they will accept into their regime anyone who angry enough to commit atrocities. There is no promise of a better world or a better life. The only promise is: you'll get to kill and injure people. And the world is full of people who can't wait to sign up.

If we can find and identify their leaders, you can kill the hydra by cutting off and burning all of its heads. But when you just cut off one head, two more grow in its place.

So, for everyone who thinks we can just go in there and drop bombs and this will all be over tomorrow, please tell us whom to bomb!

Sad situation and sad times we live in. 9/11 was a sobering event since we realized that even working at an office at your desk, you can be a victim of a terrorist attack.

Oftentimes there are no easy answers and there will always be evil and those who mean to do harm out there. Best we can do is realize that and understand that we have to try to prevent it as well as try to be prepared for it.

My heart goes out to those who died as well as their loved ones and I sure hope there is a hell for that jerk who drove into those people.

I predict that soon public gatherings will have K-rails and bollards everywhere.