Circumcise or not to circumcise our infant.

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ColumbiaNX01

ColumbiaNX01

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My wife and I are expecting a baby boy in November. Myself and all of the guys in my family have been circumcised. For me and my wife we are going to have it done for our boy when he is born. I know there are reasons to do it. Our reason is a religious belief. But after speaking with people outside our families people actually ask why we would do such a thing. Which leads me to believe that a lot of individuals are not circumcised. The reason why we are doing it is because it states in Genesis 17:11. It would be a sign to represent the covenant between man and God. We were just surprised about peoples reaction.
 
Here's what Elaine from Seinfeld had to say...

[video=dailymotion;xsfm2u]https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsfm2u_seinfeld-on-circumcision_fun[/video]
 
Since the medical evidence is largely ambiguous, my recommendation would be to do whatever is most common among the cohort of kids that the child will grow up among. No reason to "be different" around this. However, I fully recognize some folks see it as mutilation, though it is completely a different thing compared to for example female genital mutilation.

I grew up in a Jewish family, so I had the procedure. I am agnostic, as is my wife, yet both my boys have had it done just because it seems to be the common thing here.

Marc
 
stealth6 said:
I think you should also buy him a semi-automatic rifle (which is definitely not an "assault weapon" of) for his first or second birthday. For religious reasons of course.
Maybe even with some really cool exploding ammo (which is Jesus' favorite, and God would want him to have).

s6
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Why wait for his 1st or 2nd birthday and not right out of the box?
 
I deleted the more offensive and off topic threads and opened it at the posters request. Keep it clean and on topic. The bottom line is the research has shown medical benefits and the recommendation has changed in the past 2-3 years. Medical providers now give the benefits and allow patients to make the informed decision. I was taught it was a cosmetic procedure that has not medical benefits. That is not entirely true. Read the links I provided and discuss it with your significant other.
 
Oh the other side of the coin, I would say that with good hygiene available in todays society, and if you're careful with selection of sexual partners/protect yourself - it's of little medical benefit. The CDC recommendation is based on research done in Africa on STD transmission rates. I question it's applicability to life in the United States.
 
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K'Tesh said:
Circumcision is not without it's risks.
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The trouble with the CDC, is it looks at things statistically for the whole group. Risking a few deaths to lower the overall HIV rate makes sense to them. However that ignores many factors between the group studied and the target group.

For the group it's a good idea, in theory. For the individual, it's not always the best idea. This applies to many recommendations they make...and it's why they're recommendations, not requirements.

Each person gets to digest the information themselves, and make their own choices. I'm glad we live under that system, and am glad people can make their own choices medically - either for or against.
 
DavidMcCann said:
Each person gets to digest the information themselves, and make their own choices. I'm glad we live under that system, and am glad people can make their own choices medically - either for or against.
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Unless of course, you're born a male in the US. For if you were born a female, your genitals would be protected by law, and we'd gladly accept you as a refugee if you were trying to flee having the procedure done to you.
 
K'Tesh said:
Unless of course, you're born a male in the US. For if you were born a female, your genitals would be protected by law, and we'd gladly accept you as a refugee if you were trying to flee having the procedure done to you.
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The parents do get the choice for males. While both are modification of the genitals, there are slight differences in exactly how it works. Typical Female procedures would be akin to total removal of the penis.

Also, Adult females are free to have procedures done to them cosmetically.

I'm personally not for circumcision. But I do see major differences between Male Circumcision, and Female Genital Mutilation. I feel it best to discuss each separate of each other, and not try to draw too many comparisons.
 
DavidMcCann said:
The parents do get the choice for males. While both are modification of the genitals, there are slight differences in exactly how it works. Typical Female procedures would be akin to total removal of the penis.

Also, Adult females are free to have procedures done to them cosmetically.

I'm personally not for circumcision. But I do see major differences between Male Circumcision, and Female Genital Mutilation. I feel it best to discuss each separate of each other, and not try to draw too many comparisons.
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I'm sure I could find a video link of the procedure being done... In a hospital, you know, not the horror types of procedures like what you get to see suggested by movies such as Krippendorf's Tribe.

Adults can choose to have procedures done to them, but infants can't speak for themselves. They cannot comprehend what is about to happen to them, or understand why it is happening, and they certainly cannot give consent to it.

I hate what was done to my body. I hate how the complication of it manifested itself 13 years after it was done to me. It was painful (read: a literal bloody mess), expensive, and humiliating trying to undo some of the damage that was done to me. When I found out what caused my pain, I didn't pull any punches when I told my parents how I felt about it. BTW, the problem resurfaced when I was 22, and I wasn't alone when it happened that time.
 
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K'Tesh said:
Circumcision is not without it's risks.

https://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-have-him-circumcised-in-canada-a6710061.html

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...9/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

https://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death-from-circumcision.html

https://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

https://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/circumcision-facts/

There's also a lot about it to be found talking about the requirements for circumcision for the New Testament... But that clearly falls inside the realm of religion. So, I won't go there.
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These are exceptionally rare outcomes. I have done thousand of circumcisions and have not had a single bad outcome. Taking a tylenol and driving has risks but people do it every day. You are more likely to die from botox or having a dental procedure. Of which, I have seen both come through my ICUs. As a Chief Medical Officer and physician for 18 years, i have only seen one complication of a circumcision and it was cosmetic and easily repaired at a year of age.

No everyone who has a circumcision does it for religious reasons. My hospital performs 3-5 a month on adults and they are a medically necessity.

There are clear benefits to having one performed:
  • Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. Washing beneath the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis is generally easy, however.
  • Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The overall risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections are more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.
  • Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.
  • Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis.
  • Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men.

These are off the Mayo Clinic website. I am not going to argue with you. Do your own research. You clearly have your mind made up against the procedure. I have no agenda. As a physician, I hate performing the procedure. I work for the government and do not get paid to perform them. I give my patients the information and they make their own decision.

It is completely inaccurate to compare female circumcision performed overseas and a male circumcision as we perform it in the US. One has a higher benefit to risk ratio and the other does not. You simply can not argue that fact.

On last piece of advice: Be weary of the source of of your information. Some sources have a agenda. For example, I would not read blogs or religious sites. That is sort like getting advice on the medical benefits of pot from "High Times Magazine".
 
Numbers? How about this... Billions of people have lived on this planet (about half of them males), and only one nation feels it is necessary to routinely remove an otherwise normal, healthy part of their infant males (and that only began in the 20th century). How many of our national leaders were cut? I'd be willing to bet that not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independance was, nor any president until the 2nd half of the the 20th century (possibly until the 3rd quarter of the 20th century). I'm sure that those men would be horrified seeing what an infant goes through when it is done to them.

If I'm ever blessed with a son, I'd rather teach him how to clean himself, rather than amputate a portion of him... just in case there may be a problem some time in the future.

My complication that I mentioned... I was cut so tight that when I went through a growth spurt, I tore. I woke up one morning in excruciating pain, with blood all over myself and my sheets. Every erection for weeks afterwards would reopen the wound (imagine dozens of papercuts down there, each sitting on a nerve ending, then add sweat). Blood in a boy's undershorts is not something that other boys will miss when it comes time for PE. Kids can be cruel. And as I said before, it happened again when I was 22, the relationship I was in didn't survive the experience.

We likely wouldn't even be discussing this if this wasn't in 'Merica'

https://forward.com/news/breaking-news/173203/european-doctors-blast-american-report-that-recomm/

https://www.arclaw.org/resources/medical-and-legal-positions-circumcision
 
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That is an N of 1.

Europe is not exactly would I would be quote for medical standards. In combat, they come to us for advice. We had survival rates that were nearly double theirs because we use science and not emotion to make decision. We do not delay transport to perform care at the scene. We scoop and go.

I acknowledge that science changes based upon current evidence. This is why I give my patients the information and let them make the decision, but your N of 1 case is not evidence of of a mass of bad outcomes. I have seen the data. With over 30,000 male births a year and 66% receiving a circumcision, one system have had only 1 adverse outcome in the last 5 years. Compare that to a vasectomy: 5000 per year. In 5 years, they had had 12 adverse outcomes. That is data and the risk is very low but which would you rather have performed.

Ask the provider their complication rate. Discuss it with you significant other and do not rush into a decision. The benefits and risk are both small, but the benefits outweigh the risks of a lifetime. Circumcision is not medical necessity so just think about it.

I personally would recommend against a circumcision, but you have to make up your own mind and not let someone push into a decision based upon emotion. I will tell you the complication rate is much lower for babies than anyone over 2 years of age. I let my wife make the decision in my son because I was biased by science of the day. I am happy with her decision even though I did not agree with it at the time.
 
Actually... in a weird way, I'm glad this is here. My wife is giving birth within the next couple weeks, and I've been starting to think about this. My first son, I didn't even question it and just said yes. But in the past ten years, I've grown and changed in my understanding of the world, and started to question what I once assumed was orthodoxy. So, though somewhat weirded -out by this subject being on a rocketry forum, I'm SUPER glad for the thread. Less so for the opinions, but far more so for the links that everyone has posted. You guys just shrunk my research time by a thousand degrees. Thanks!
 
cwbullet said:
Europe is not exactly would I would be quote for medical standards. In combat, they come to us for advice. We had survival rates that were nearly double theirs because we use science and not emotion to make decision. We do not delay transport to perform care at the scene. We scoop and go.
Click to expand...

We're talking about the same Europe that has banned fire retardant chemicals from beverages (BVO), as well as numerous other chemicals due to their unknown contributions to medical conditions. The same Europe that has banned GMO's due to the potential for causing unintended harm.

America isn't always right, and it isn't always the best model to follow. There are a good number of things it does have going for it, but it shouldn't ever be considered the be-all and end-all repository of knowledge.
 
CzTeacherMan said:
Actually... in a weird way, I'm glad this is here. My wife is giving birth within the next couple weeks, and I've been starting to think about this. My first son, I didn't even question it and just said yes. But in the past ten years, I've grown and changed in my understanding of the world, and started to question what I once assumed was orthodoxy. So, though somewhat weirded -out by this subject being on a rocketry forum, I'm SUPER glad for the thread. Less so for the opinions, but far more so for the links that everyone has posted. You guys just shrunk my research time by a thousand degrees. Thanks!
Click to expand...

If your interested in more links, PM me, and I'd be happy to point out a few others to you.
 
I was done at the age of 24 for relief of a phimosis condition by a qualified urologist. Thanks for the correct term Chuck. But ultimately it was my choice. A baby has no choice, which I disagree with.

What I'm actually posting to say is that some define female mutilation as circumcision when it should be looked at as castration! In my opinion far more evil particularly for the reasons it is done. [medical aside]


Richard
 
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K'Tesh said:
We're talking about the same Europe that has banned fire retardant chemicals from beverages (BVO), as well as numerous other chemicals due to their unknown contributions to medical conditions. The same Europe that has banned GMO's due to the potential for causing unintended harm.

America isn't always right, and it isn't always the best model to follow. There are a good number of things it does have going for it, but it shouldn't ever be considered the be-all and end-all repository of knowledge.
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I think if you read my response above. I actually agree with you. It is not the babies choice and it never will be. Our society gives parents the right to choose until age 18 or emancipation. There are other reasons to perform the procedure beside Phimosis or Paraphimosis.

I guess I must be good at performing the procedure. Over 1000 without a complication. No infections. No significant bleeding. No patient or family complaints. In the military, we are very diligent to ensure that the top quality medical care is delivered with a low complication rate. Our complication rate is much lower than civilian medical system. In 18 years, I have review less than a dozen questionable outcomes and only three were concerning. We have a robust patient safety program that encourages employees and patient to report safety and quality concerns. We review every case with a root cause analysis to ensure we learn from every complaint for performance improvement. Nearly all reported cases are customer service issues or near misses. I have only seen the threes cases result in harm. None were circs.

I challenge you to find a physician or medical system that is that successful.

GMOs? It is not a medical issue. I guess they should ban tylenol and aspirin. They cause real harm and not "potential harm". There needs to be more research. From a scientific prospective, I do not understand how they could cause harm, but I avoid them. If they are pure carbs, protein, and fat, digestion should stop and harmful effects. The only thing I can think of is a prion or toxin.

BVOs are not medical. No doctor would tell you to take a big drink of that.
 
cwbullet said:
I guess I must be good at performing the procedure. Over 1000 without a complication. No infections. No significant bleeding. No patient or family complaints.
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The SOB who did me died before I could complain.
 
K'Tesh said:
The SOB who did me died before I could complain.
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That is too bad. You should still being up the issue. A root cause analysis should be done. Any bad outcome or safety report is an opportunity for improvement. I see a patient advocate report (complaint) or Patient Safety Report as an essential part or a learning environment of any business. In order to be a High Reliable Organization like the Airlines, you must strive for perfection.

Andrew: Don't let the nay sayers make up your mind. Do research and figure out what is best for you and your family. Talk to a pediatrician or family practitioner that does infant care and ask for information to help you with the decision. If you use the internet, search for reliable sources of information that end in .edu or .gov. Ask any provider who is performing the procedure "how many have you done?" and "what is your complication rate?" If a provider recommends circumcision without giving you the information to help you make the decision, find another medical provider.

Early in my career, I spent hours trying to encourage parents, including my wife, not to have the procedure done. I was rarely successful. Now I just given them the information and let them make the decision. Wisdom has taught me to rely on informed consent and to respect the patient and parents decision.
 
cwbullet said:
Early in my career, I spent hours trying to encourage parents, including my wife, not to have the procedure done. I was rarely successful. Now I just given them the information and let them make the decision. Wisdom has taught me to rely on informed consent and to respect the patient and parents decision.
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+1 Very well said.

Every procedure can have bad outcomes. Each person must weigh risk and benefit. Children can not make their own choices, and parents must make some from them. Sometimes they make them wrong. As a parent, that responsibility is terrifying.... but it can not stop you.
 
This is a rocketry forum ....
So do you want it low and slow or sleek and aerodynamic?

Just having fun - no real opinion - thank goodness I had a girl and didn't have to figure this one out.....
Best of luck to all involved!
Congrats to the new parents!
 

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