MADCOW 4" FRENZY CARDBOARD ROCKET... A BUILD THREAD #1

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I don't think any of us has been really happy with the way we built our own L1 birds.

I am. It was a PML Excalibur in quantum tube. It sat in the desert for three years after its third flight. I still have the booster section. It held up very well to the elements. I may even touch it up eventually. Nice bird for being made of poop pipe, lol.
 
I had made a suggestion on your other thread about altimeters that for your cert flight you might go with motor deployment, but build the rocket so that it could be set up for DD later. Take a look at those options especially if your rocket is getting heavy because it can help you with I motor choices.

Some things you might want to do just to be on the safe side...

Download Open Rocket. It is free and relatively easy to use. Best of all, it can read Rocksim files. Once you have that go to Mad Cow and download the Rocksim for this rocket. Take about a 1" think piece of wood (which is actually more like 5/8") and clamp it into a bench vise making sure the edge is as level as possible. Balance your rocket on it. Using a tape measure, carefully measure the distance from the tip of your nose cone to the center of the block of wood in the vise. This is your CG as best you can determine. You know the overall weight but you need to layer the weights of all the components of your rocket so that when you have the total weight, the CG is correct to what you measured.

Now you can play around with motor designs, etc. and see how the motor weights impact your balance. Your CG needs to be 1 caliber (diameter of the airframe) forward of your Center of Pressure (CP). Otherwise you have a huge risk of flying this once.

Generally, this is an overstable rocket but you really have added a lot of aft end weight. Assuming your AV bay and electronics weighs 20 oz. (570 g - that includes rods, nuts bolts, sled, electronics, batteries, etc. - This is heavier than usual but if you overbuilt elsewhere then you probably did here as well). Not being critical, that's the way it is so you are going to have to make other adjustments accordingly as you come up with various motor sizes. I am going to work the rest of the way using SAE and Imperial units of measure. Open Rocket settings can be those or metric, your choice in the options.

A big challenge is Thrust-to-weight ratio. You want to fly this on an I. Your rocket with an I is going to be 7.5 pounds. One Newton = 0.2248 ft. pounds of thrust. You need no less than a 5:1 Thrust/Weight ratio to get your bird safely off the ground. This weight includes the motor. So 5 x 7.5 lbs./0.2248 = no less than 170 average NS of thrust at ignition. Some of the Longburn motors are out, but you still have a wide choice of other motors. I use CTI motors myself and an I445 V-Max looks like a decent 54mm choice. With the weight of this motor added to my sim of your rocket you have a stability of 1.28 ca. Pretty good. The rocket sims to 1.800' on this motor.

The problem is going to be when you get to heavier motors. Let's say you want to use a J360 Skidmark. Great motor. Lots of flame sparks and NOISE! The problem is that the motor weighs another pound and a sixth, and all that weight is at the back. Now your stability is down to 0.88 ca. which means to bring it stable, you need to add 2 ounces to the nose cone.

Let's say you want to fly it on a K260... A real fine longburn that will give you a slow boost and burn forever (9 seconds) and send that bird up over a mile. You will need to add a couple more ounces. You can add those in the build now, or you can create a removable weight setup so that you can still get the altitude on smaller motors when you don't need the weight.

This is the file I put together. Download Open Rocket and then copy and paste this file into Documents/Open Rocket. Play around.

You can see after doing this why people were concerned about your weight. But hey It's your rocket. Build it the way you want to build it. Just understand the tradeoffs.

Good luck.

View attachment frenzy.ork
 
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I had made a suggestion on your other thread about altimeters that for your cert flight you might go with motor deployment, but build the rocket so that it could be set up for DD later. Take a look at those options especially if your rocket is getting heavy because it can help you with I motor choices.

Some things you might want to do just to be on the safe side...

Download Open Rocket. It is free and relatively easy to use. Best of all, it can read Rocksim files. Once you have that go to Mad Cow and download the Rocksim for this rocket. Take about a 1" think piece of wood (which is actually more like 5/8") and clamp it into a bench vise making sure the edge is as level as possible. Balance your rocket on it. Using a tape measure, carefully measure the distance from the tip of your nose cone to the center of the block of wood in the vise. This is your CG as best you can determine. You know the overall weight but you need to layer the weights of all the components of your rocket so that when you have the total weight, the CG is correct to what you measured.

Now you can play around with motor designs, etc. and see how the motor weights impact your balance. Your CG needs to be 1 caliber (diameter of the airframe) forward of your Center of Pressure (CP). Otherwise you have a huge risk of flying this once.

Generally, this is an overstable rocket but you really have added a lot of aft end weight. Assuming your AV bay and electronics weighs 20 oz. (570 g - that includes rods, nuts bolts, sled, electronics, batteries, etc. - This is heavier than usual but if you overbuilt elsewhere then you probably did here as well). Not being critical, that's the way it is so you are going to have to make other adjustments accordingly as you come up with various motor sizes. I am going to work the rest of the way using SAE and Imperial units of measure. Open Rocket settings can be those or metric, your choice in the options.

A big challenge is Thrust-to-weight ratio. You want to fly this on an I. Your rocket with an I is going to be 7.5 pounds. One Newton = 0.2248 ft. pounds of thrust. You need no less than a 5:1 Thrust/Weight ratio to get your bird safely off the ground. This weight includes the motor. So 5 x 7.5 lbs./0.2248 = no less than 170 average NS of thrust at ignition. Some of the Longburn motors are out, but you still have a wide choice of other motors. I use CTI motors myself and an I445 V-Max looks like a decent 54mm choice. With the weight of this motor added to my sim of your rocket you have a stability of 1.28 ca. Pretty good. The rocket sims to 1.800' on this motor.

The problem is going to be when you get to heavier motors. Let's say you want to use a J360 Skidmark. Great motor. Lots of flame sparks and NOISE! The problem is that the motor weighs another pound and a sixth, and all that weight is at the back. Now your stability is down to 0.88 ca. which means to bring it stable, you need to add 2 ounces to the nose cone.

Let's say you want to fly it on a K260... A real fine longburn that will give you a slow boost and burn forever (9 seconds) and send that bird up over a mile. You will need to add a couple more ounces. You can add those in the build now, or you can create a removable weight setup so that you can still get the altitude on smaller motors when you don't need the weight.

This is the file I put together. Download Open Rocket and then copy and paste this file into Documents/Open Rocket. Play around.

You can see after doing this why people were concerned about your weight. But hey It's your rocket. Build it the way you want to build it. Just understand the tradeoffs.

Good luck.

"Huge Thanks!" I'll download your file for viewing in 'OpenRocket', and give it a look see! I was just getting ready to ask if anyone had any compatible SIM files that I could borrow, bum, or barter!!!
 
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I'm in the camp that thinks foam is a terrible idea in any rocket. (its a small camp). In this rocket, it would be better to reduce weight, than add more in the ass end. Foaming the can will add weight in an already strong area...and increase the odds of crumpling the forward section.
8686792607_362ca2b59e_c.jpg

I completely agree. foam is an expensive, weight-adding waste. Stick a piece of wood into a big piece of Styrofoam and apply force to one side of the wood. Snap. The Styrofoam breaks. Epoxy foam isn't much stronger and unlike Styrofoam, it crumbles.

On this rocket, if you keep your speed below Mach 0.8, the most important thing you can do to keep your fins is to have a solid bond of glue from the fin root to the motor tube and a good set of internal and external fillets at the airframe.

BTW, David. I think I remember that crash. :wink:
 
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BTW, David. I think I remember that crash. :wink:

Lol. That was my first organized launch :) Still don't know why that prang'd. Charge blew, all I can think is the elastic bound up. I cut off the fincan the next day, fixed it with an extra tube and coupler, primed it, and it's been sitting for 4 years waiting to fly again/ finish the paint. :)

I've seen a lot of rockets that were foamed come back in without fins... I've seen a lot of epoxied rockets hit hard and keep all their fins. Just observations, but good enough for me.
 
I've seen a lot of rockets that were foamed come back in without fins... I've seen a lot of epoxied rockets hit hard and keep all their fins. Just observations, but good enough for me.

I had a shred (coupler failure) on my MAC Rayzor on an L640, and the rocketpoxy'd fins (standard build-glue all 6 in, then internal fillets, then attach back CR) held through a turn at ~M1 and impacting the desert. The entire airframe up to the fin can was damaged or missing, but the fins are still completely locked in.

P1100695.jpg

TMJ, regardless of how you actually build it, best of luck on the cert! The Frenzy is a super nice flyer built light or heavy. Just for reference (I think this is in your other thread too), here's my altitudes with a dry weight of ~110 oz/3.2 kg. Even if yours is a bit heavier than that it should do fine on the I445 for an L1 cert, or one of the higher thrust 38mm I's.

J360SK (what EeebeeE referenced, awesome motor)-4051'
K360WH-5289'
J293BS-3437'
I445VX-1873'

In case it helps, Madcow has a sim file on their website here: https://www.madcowrocketry.com/4-frenzy/
It's for the single deploy version, but should be easy to modify.

And here's a great video (by TRF'er Timro, launch photos by me) of 3 Frenzys flying two I445s vs a J240-mine is the blue/yellow one:
[video=youtube;oFaRjakf4to]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFaRjakf4to&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
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I had made a suggestion on your other thread about altimeters that for your cert flight you might go with motor deployment, but build the rocket so that it could be set up for DD later. Take a look at those options especially if your rocket is getting heavy because it can help you with I motor choices.

Some things you might want to do just to be on the safe side...

Download Open Rocket. It is free and relatively easy to use. Best of all, it can read Rocksim files. Once you have that go to Mad Cow and download the Rocksim for this rocket. Take about a 1" think piece of wood (which is actually more like 5/8") and clamp it into a bench vise making sure the edge is as level as possible. Balance your rocket on it. Using a tape measure, carefully measure the distance from the tip of your nose cone to the center of the block of wood in the vise. This is your CG as best you can determine. You know the overall weight but you need to layer the weights of all the components of your rocket so that when you have the total weight, the CG is correct to what you measured.

Now you can play around with motor designs, etc. and see how the motor weights impact your balance. Your CG needs to be 1 caliber (diameter of the airframe) forward of your Center of Pressure (CP). Otherwise you have a huge risk of flying this once.

Generally, this is an overstable rocket but you really have added a lot of aft end weight. Assuming your AV bay and electronics weighs 20 oz. (570 g - that includes rods, nuts bolts, sled, electronics, batteries, etc. - This is heavier than usual but if you overbuilt elsewhere then you probably did here as well). Not being critical, that's the way it is so you are going to have to make other adjustments accordingly as you come up with various motor sizes. I am going to work the rest of the way using SAE and Imperial units of measure. Open Rocket settings can be those or metric, your choice in the options.

A big challenge is Thrust-to-weight ratio. You want to fly this on an I. Your rocket with an I is going to be 7.5 pounds. One Newton = 0.2248 ft. pounds of thrust. You need no less than a 5:1 Thrust/Weight ratio to get your bird safely off the ground. This weight includes the motor. So 5 x 7.5 lbs./0.2248 = no less than 170 average NS of thrust at ignition. Some of the Longburn motors are out, but you still have a wide choice of other motors. I use CTI motors myself and an I445 V-Max looks like a decent 54mm choice. With the weight of this motor added to my sim of your rocket you have a stability of 1.28 ca. Pretty good. The rocket sims to 1.800' on this motor.

The problem is going to be when you get to heavier motors. Let's say you want to use a J360 Skidmark. Great motor. Lots of flame sparks and NOISE! The problem is that the motor weighs another pound and a sixth, and all that weight is at the back. Now your stability is down to 0.88 ca. which means to bring it stable, you need to add 2 ounces to the nose cone.

Let's say you want to fly it on a K260... A real fine longburn that will give you a slow boost and burn forever (9 seconds) and send that bird up over a mile. You will need to add a couple more ounces. You can add those in the build now, or you can create a removable weight setup so that you can still get the altitude on smaller motors when you don't need the weight.

This is the file I put together. Download Open Rocket and then copy and paste this file into Documents/Open Rocket. Play around.

You can see after doing this why people were concerned about your weight. But hey It's your rocket. Build it the way you want to build it. Just understand the tradeoffs.

Good luck.

Your advice/recommendations have been well noted! I keep re-reading your post and truly like what you say!!! Still haven't opened up any sim files. I'm too whipped and overheated after work. I'll do the sims this weekend when my brain is cool and thinking straight. "Many thanks for the advice!"
 
I had a shred (coupler failure) on my MAC Rayzor on an L640, and the rocketpoxy'd fins (standard build-glue all 6 in, then internal fillets, then attach back CR) held through a turn at ~M1 and impacting the desert. The entire airframe up to the fin can was damaged or missing, but the fins are still completely locked in.

View attachment 296206

TMJ, regardless of how you actually build it, best of luck on the cert! The Frenzy is a super nice flyer built light or heavy. Just for reference (I think this is in your other thread too), here's my altitudes with a dry weight of ~110 oz/3.2 kg. Even if yours is a bit heavier than that it should do fine on the I445 for an L1 cert, or one of the higher thrust 38mm I's.

J360SK (what EeebeeE referenced, awesome motor)-4051'
K360WH-5289'
J293BS-3437'
I445VX-1873'

In case it helps, Madcow has a sim file on their website here: https://www.madcowrocketry.com/4-frenzy/
It's for the single deploy version, but should be easy to modify.

And here's a great video (by TRF'er Timro, launch photos by me) of 3 Frenzys flying two I445s vs a J240-mine is the blue/yellow one:
[video=youtube;oFaRjakf4to]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFaRjakf4to&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Very nice, and nice to know info, too! "Thank you!" I can't wait to launch my Frenzy. It will surely be a nervous second, hopefully followed by a nervous minute, or few! :eyepop:
 
Very nice, and nice to know info, too! "Thank you!" I can't wait to launch my Frenzy. It will surely be a nervous second, hopefully followed by a nervous minute, or few! :eyepop:

Somewhere about 10-15 seconds in is the real pucker moment ;)
 
Somewhere about 10-15 seconds in is the real pucker moment ;)

"I hear ya, David"... but I also know me. The ol' 'pucker factor' will surely last longer than the standard 10-15 seconds, on my first L1 attempt... even if it's successful! :shock:
 
True, I never relax until i'm on the ground, but once the chute is out, the odds of success go way way up.
 
There have been 'MANY, MANY' replies to this thread. 'GREAT' replies, at that! Sadly, there's No way that I can keep up with them all. If I seem to have ignored good advice, seemed to act 'bull-headed', or if I haven't responded to 'your' individual post(s)... please do not take it to heart. I'll not intentionally ignore anyone's good advice, nor their comments. There's just sooo many posts/replies to sort through... and I sincerely appreciate them all! It will just take time for me to get around to all of them! That being said... "Please Keep Posting!" "There's no such thing as 'too little' information, opinions, nor advice!"
I truly thank you 'ALL' for your support in helping me to get a good start in HPR! :smile:
 
I can hear the tension in my voice in the ground video of my L2 cert flight. My main chute took a little longer to fill than I wanted it to, and that was a suspenseful moment, but once it was fully open, I let out a huge sigh of relief.
 
I can hear the tension in my voice in the ground video of my L2 cert flight. My main chute took a little longer to fill than I wanted it to, and that was a suspenseful moment, but once it was fully open, I let out a huge sigh of relief.

My L2 had the opposite issue. "yes it's off the pad........ok burnout.....there's the apogee charge! hey umm... why is the main out? crap."
 
it may only be 10 - 15 seconds...but it can feel like an eternity :)
Rex
 
I am. It was a PML Excalibur in quantum tube. It sat in the desert for three years after its third flight. I still have the booster section. It held up very well to the elements. I may even touch it up eventually. Nice bird for being made of poop pipe, lol.

Yeah, my L1 was a Quantum Tube PML Explorer. I had never flown anything bigger than a C. I built it exactly according to directions. Flew it until I lost it on a J in Canada. Bought and built another, following directions again, and flew it until the root edges of the fins began cracking. First rocket I ever retired.
 
I've secured the 'Y'-Harness to the forward CR. I used proven/secure 'fishing knots' that I like to use for salt water game fishing. Plenty strong, however. I also felt tempted to epoxy the already strong knots for added insurance, (who didn't see 'that' coming!), :lol: Aft CR is still loose. I'll secure the aft ring in place after getting the forward CR secured in the body tube, as well as the forward/primary fins anchored. Last photo shows the dry fit of the motor mount with the connection end of my recovery harness protruding from the booster tube. I could have made that harness a bit shorter, but I over-estimated the length of Kevlar cord thinking that my fishing knots would take up much more material than they actually did. The somewhat 'bulky' Kevlar ties secure knots, nicely. "Far better than I had anticipated!!!"
Y Harness Attached.jpgHarness Attached~Aft CR loose.jpgHarness Sticking Out Of Booster.jpg
 
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Lol, oops. Av-bay backwards or chutes backwards?

Was an ADEPT22 and the directions that came with the wiring harness from adept were backwards from what the altimeter directions say... whoops.

10044222253_1aac624355.jpg


Diagram-ADEPT22.gif
 
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I also felt tempted to epoxy the already strong knots for added insurance

Minor remark, that weakens the knots insetad of making them stronger, but it should not be a problem here.
 
Are you going to use expanding foam in the fin can?

No... I'm not going to use foam. I'm also not going to use any additional centering rings, either... at least not on 'this' rocket. As much as I personally 'LOVE' the idea(s) behind 'both' strategies... I also feel that neither/or will be truly needful in 'this' particular build. I'll reserve those stronger ideas for more advanced/future projects. For now? I'm just going to keep things simple and stop adding any/all unnecessary weight to the booster section. I've already added enough! To avoid hard hits and potential crumpling of the airframe, due to such... I'll simply weigh the flight ready rocket, after all is said and done, using a borrowed/spent motor casing for a weight standard to base things upon. I'll 'then' be able to determine a proper decent rate and chute size to keep things from hitting the ground too hard. I live in Texas. There's a very good chance that the ground will be quite hard. Might go with the next size largest recommended chute, based on touchdown weight, while setting my altimeter a few feet lower for main deployment. Not sure of the plusses/minuses of that strategy, as of yet. That's a few building steps down the road, but something that I know I must start thinking about, 'NOW'!
 
Minor remark, that weakens the knots insetad of making them stronger, but it should not be a problem here.

Very true. I 'tried' to keep the epoxy only in areas that would allow for 'tightening' of the knot, but not for allowing the tag end to slip through. I did get some of the glue in areas that I did not want it, but what the heck. "What's done is done!" :facepalm:
 
Was an ADEPT22 and the directions that came with the wiring harness from adept were backwards from what the altimeter directions say... whoops.

10044222253_1aac624355.jpg


Diagram-ADEPT22.gif

"Couldn't you just simply launch the rocket 'backwards' and make it work properly?" :grin:
 
"Couldn't you just simply launch the rocket 'backwards' and make it work properly?" :grin:

I've tried that before. Doesn't go as far in the dirt and it's a real bitch digging them out :)
 
No... I'm not going to use foam. I'm also not going to use any additional centering rings, either... at least not on 'this' rocket. As much as I personally 'LOVE' the idea(s) behind 'both' strategies... I also feel that neither/or will be truly needful in 'this' particular build. I'll reserve those stronger ideas for more advanced/future projects. For now? I'm just going to keep things simple and stop adding any/all unnecessary weight to the booster section. I've already added enough! To avoid hard hits and potential crumpling of the airframe, due to such... I'll simply weigh the flight ready rocket, after all is said and done, using a borrowed/spent motor casing for a weight standard to base things upon. I'll 'then' be able to determine a proper decent rate and chute size to keep things from hitting the ground too hard. I live in Texas. There's a very good chance that the ground will be quite hard. Might go with the next size largest recommended chute, based on touchdown weight, while setting my altimeter a few feet lower for main deployment. Not sure of the plusses/minuses of that strategy, as of yet. That's a few building steps down the road, but something that I know I must start thinking about, 'NOW'!

For a very reasonable price you can check out Aerocon Systems. They sell 60" military flare chutes for around $12

https://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/60-inch-white-parachute/

They also have an attachment point for a quick link. I think the CD is around 1.50
 
No... I'm not going to use foam. I'm also not going to use any additional centering rings, either... at least not on 'this' rocket. As much as I personally 'LOVE' the idea(s) behind 'both' strategies... I also feel that neither/or will be truly needful in 'this' particular build. I'll reserve those stronger ideas for more advanced/future projects. For now? I'm just going to keep things simple and stop adding any/all unnecessary weight to the booster section. I've already added enough! To avoid hard hits and potential crumpling of the airframe, due to such... I'll simply weigh the flight ready rocket, after all is said and done, using a borrowed/spent motor casing for a weight standard to base things upon. I'll 'then' be able to determine a proper decent rate and chute size to keep things from hitting the ground too hard. I live in Texas. There's a very good chance that the ground will be quite hard. Might go with the next size largest recommended chute, based on touchdown weight, while setting my altimeter a few feet lower for main deployment. Not sure of the plusses/minuses of that strategy, as of yet. That's a few building steps down the road, but something that I know I must start thinking about, 'NOW'!

No worries about running one size larger main chute than needed, I don't even usually set deployment lower. A slightly lower than average descent rate (say 15 fps instead of 20-30) definitely helps reduce the chances of damage on landing and won't increase drift much if deployed at, say, 300-1000'. The one thing to be a bit cautious of is the larger chute pulling the rocket along the ground once it's down, but it shouldn't be a problem (and a smaller chute can still pull).
 
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