What's wrong with America's high schools?

Perhaps a year ago, I had a conversation with the girlfriend of one of my son's high school friends who likes to watch, film and often retrieve my rockets. (They are both nice "kids" in their late twenties/early thirties.) Anyhow, we were watching various YouTube videos on their widescreen television monitor and at some point I asked them if they had ever seen a Saturn V launch. The girlfriend said, "What's that?" I asked her if she had ever heard of the Apollo Space Program. "The what", she replied. So I continued to bring her into the Twentieth Century and we eventually watched Steve Eaves' commemorative Saturn V model rocket launch from 2009.

Then I went home so they could return to playing video games undisturbed.

tmacklin said:

... at some point I asked them if they had ever seen a Saturn V launch. The girlfriend said, "What's that?" I asked her if she had ever heard of the Apollo Space Program. "The what", she replied. So I continued to bring her into the Twentieth Century and we eventually watched Steve Eaves' commemorative Saturn V model rocket launch from 2009.

Then I went home so they could return to playing video games undisturbed.

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"Infinite Facepalm"

H_Rocket said:

A few reasons

1) Parents do not take ownership of raising their children. They expect the school system to impart a sense of achievement and discipline that should be already in place when the youngster enters the school.

2) Children are not allowed to fail. It might hurt their self esteem. A few years back my neighbor a teacher told me how they were instructed to no longer use red pens to grade lessons. It seemed that red can cause stress and results in an adverse effect on a child's self esteem. I remember it well as that same day I made a hell of an error at work and got hauled into the Associate CIO's office. A half hour later I was certain of two things. First, I had screwed up, and second - he did not give a damn about my self esteem.

3) Children are not allowed to be children and mature normally. Today's youngsters have every moment programmed and planned for them. They do not know how to make use of what is offered in school. I actually had a young man say to me "I knew there was a problem, and I would have taken the initiative to solve it - if only someone asked me to." This mindset inevitably leads to teachers becoming frustrated and when buried in a morass of well meaning but useless regulations, they often just do enough to make do.

Today's parents have created a generation of coddled, self indulgent, brittle primadonnas that compensate by competing in everything and not having the opportunity to fail at anything.

Like anything in government there is waste, always will be. However, until we as a society step up and see to the development of our young people they will continue to perform at the level that allows them to get by.

Yes,there are exceptions. I simply believe we are letting our young folks down by not teaching them to excel while exposing them to the consequences of not doing your best.

I also believe we put way too much emphasis on a college education. We place too much merit to getting a degree and finding some office job. We should return to a time when we also developed a well-paid skilled blue collar workforce.

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[rant] Nailed it and not just the US. As an engineering lecturer in the UK I see the results of coddled, no fail, ill disciplined tykes all the time. State does not help either. Unions have absolutely no effect on what is happening, they have been neutered years ago into ineffectual voices that can not help and as such are not to blame. Parents should be looking in mirrors, politicians should be listening the teaching staff not financial advisers, children should be taking some responsibility, the general public need to be prepared to pay a skilled spanner for their time instead of expecting them to pay for privilege of fixing the clients car (not quite but I am sure a lot understand my intent). [/rant]

I mean such things as these: when the young are to be silent before their elders; how they are to show respect to them by standing and making them sit; what honour is due to parents; what garments or shoes are to be worn; the mode of dressing the hair; deportment and manners in general.

Not to be crass, but anyone who hasn't spent time in a high school in the past five years really has no right having an opinion on this question. Period. And I mean spent real time in a high school, working with kids, working with adminstration, and working within the confines of the laws established to regulate what happens in high schools. Everyone else is just showing off their personal biases and beliefs. ... sorry, rant over.

CzTeacherMan said:

Not to be crass, but anyone who hasn't spent time in a high school in the past five years really has no right having an opinion on this question. Period. And I mean spent real time in a high school, working with kids, working with adminstration, and working within the confines of the laws established to regulate what happens in high schools. Everyone else is just showing off their personal biases and beliefs. ... sorry, rant over.

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... or quoting Socrates, Plato, Hesiod

dhbarr said:

... or quoting Socrates, Plato, Hesiod

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Descartes? LoL

'Rene Descartes was a drunken fart who was very rarely sober...'

dhbarr said:

... or quoting Socrates, Plato, Hesiod

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Most kids these days don't even know who those guys are.....

Charles_McG said:

'Rene Descartes was a drunken fart who was very rarely sober...'

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rharshberger said:

Most kids these days don't even know who those guys are.....

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True.

CzTeacherMan said:

Not to be crass, but anyone who hasn't spent time in a high school in the past five years really has no right having an opinion on this question. Period. And I mean spent real time in a high school, working with kids, working with adminstration, and working within the confines of the laws established to regulate what happens in high schools. Everyone else is just showing off their personal biases and beliefs. ... sorry, rant over.

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I hear you CZ, and the whole problems with today's youth can NOT be totally laid at the feet of the education system. It is most Americans fault. We don't go to municipal functions to try to make a difference, we just piss & moan what's wrong. I myself is included, as I didn't start getting involved in these matters till my late 40s. I bitch about reality TV, but back in my youth through middle age, sports (participating/spectator) partying, & chasing skirts was my priorities!
Later it was family, which should be the main priority, but in today's world family takes more time in that kids can't ride there bikes to little league, parents have to be at every activity their children are involved with. In the 60s my mom and God Father (my dad died when I was 6) didn't come to every game I played in. Even in high school they only came to the rivalry and important/playoff games.
So I am guilty too, in that I had trivial priorities in my life that kept me from contributing to society!
But my God, the youth today don't know diddly squat about American History. I work with mostly kids, their ages are 22, 25, 3 @ 26 28, and 5 in their early 30's. I will point out to them when the date is the anniversary of D-Day, Pearl Harbor, Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon, or explaining Veterans Day, (the end of WWI, signed on the 11th hour, of the 11th Day, of the 11th month). Everything including movies are irrelevant if it happened before they were born.
Not only do they not care, the disrespect they show me is horrible! We don't care old man is the usual response.
The bright spot are 2 brothers who are from Iraq, they love the USA, they have been with me to rocket launches and air shows, they want to be American more than some Americans!
In closing, we the people are not doing enough.

CzTeacherMan said:

Not to be crass, but anyone who hasn't spent time in a high school in the past five years really has no right having an opinion on this question.

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Not even those of us who have to employ and supervise the product of the current education system?

Yes, teachers probably have an up close and personal view of the problem. However, if the discussion does not take place outside the confines of the school system then I seriously think we cannot effect change.

And I lay little of the problem on educators. I lay the lions share on the parents and most of the rest on well meaning bureaucrats.

CzTeacherMan said:

Not to be crass, but anyone who hasn't spent time in a high school in the past five years really has no right having an opinion on this question. Period. And I mean spent real time in a high school, working with kids, working with adminstration, and working within the confines of the laws established to regulate what happens in high schools. Everyone else is just showing off their personal biases and beliefs. ... sorry, rant over.

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What about observing their children going through current version of school? That gives me all the right I need.

Frankly, schools are far too sensitive these days. Far too concerned with how kids feel, and trying to build self esteem. Problem with self esteem and confidence is that it has to be earned to be worth anything. Enough people tell you are special and smart and you will believe it whether it is true or not. I think we need to get rid of sensitivity training in schools. Kids need to be allowed to succeed and to fail- both can be valuable learning experiences. They should be worked hard, and held to high standards.

I believe wholeheartedly that schools have been largely taken over by folks who have never worked in the real world. Many of them are leftist/ socialist folks who are spending valuable time indoctrinating our children in their bs politics versus educating them in actual skills they need in the real world ( read not academia). Somebody is going to try and challenge me on this, but I promise you I see it in my children's school district all the time. I am sick of it.

As to parents not being involved I agree. As somebody who spends several hours a week helping my kids with school I know I am taking care of business. When I see my sons friends not having this it saddens me. I have had to help a couple of them with math and science issues. I think our society has issues this way. It is sad, and represents a major problem.

Speaking as a former trustee of my local school board I have seen first hand how things work in public education...and it ain't purdy. Parents blame the teachers, teachers blame the parents, superintendents blame the taxpayers and the taxpayers bleed. The real action occurs not at the PTA meetings or the public portions of board meetings, but in executive sessions behind closed doors during the budget process.
It occurs in smoke filled rooms at the clubhouse on the golf course or at the architect's office with the building contractors, real estate developers, bankers and superintendents. Everybody gets a piece of the action...but just remember...it's all for the kids.

:rant:

tmacklin said:

Speaking as a former trustee of my local school board I have seen first hand how things work in public education...and it ain't purdy. Parents blame the teachers, teachers blame the parents, superintendents blame the taxpayers and the taxpayers bleed. The real action occurs not at the PTA meetings or the public portions of board meetings, but in executive sessions behind closed doors during the budget process.
It occurs in smoke filled rooms at the clubhouse on the golf course or at the architect's office with the building contractors, real estate developers, bankers and superintendents. Everybody gets a piece of the action...but just remember...it's all for the kids.

:rant:

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Yeh, from Fed to City government. transparency at work

The removal of PRAYER from school has required the need for more campus POLICE.

Everything else just goes downhill from there.

Having been in education for some time now... if I had to boil it down to one thing... it's that people who don't know squat about how education works telling teachers how to teach and telling teachers that they don't know what they're doing. People that haven't been in classrooms telling everyone else what it will take to fix education. Depending on where one works determines which graduates one works with...
I dedicate a huge chunk of my life to my students. Sure there are morons. Lots of them. But there are lots and lots of brilliant students as well. Brilliant, hard working students. Whenever I find out that a kid doesn't know something that I think should be common sense, I'm always shocked, but I'm glad that I have the chance to be the one to fill them in on what they should know. Instead of being upset they don't know, I cherish the opportunity to educate them. I'm much less forgiving of adult ignorance. And that's certainly a failing of mine.
Long story short, my district is always looking for ways to do better work and we're often tied down by a lack of resources... money, volunteers, etc
One thing we should mention, for sure, is that education differs widely from state to state and district to district. So my experience in Illinois is probably far, far different than someone in Texas or Oregon or wherever.
My earlier rant was based on the fact that people have a few narrow interactions with young people and draw these really super unfair generalizations of the entire system. It's really a broad issue with many complicated facets.

...
Side note, in reply to the idea that we tell kids that they're special... speaking only from my narrow experience... there are many kids who've never once heard that they're special. There are many kids who have never had an adult take them under their wing and show them how to succeed. So when a kid acts like he thinks he's special... many times, it's because he has to tell himself that because no one else will... when I encounter kids like that, i let them have their lie and I educate them anyway. Eventually they figure out that their effort and results make them special, not their existence. Getting them to that takes patience and humility on my part...

JERRYR708 said:

The removal of PRAYER from school has required the need for more campus POLICE.

Everything else just goes downhill from there.

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Funny, I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but students can pray in school whenever they wish. No one stops them. Stopping them would be wrong, and frankly, illegal.

CzTeacherMan said:

Funny, I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but students can pray in school whenever they wish. No one stops them. Stopping them would be wrong, and frankly, illegal.

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I student was suspended for wearing a Christian T-shirt, but when a Muslim student wore one for his religion, they were told to embrace his.

JERRYR708 said:

I student was suspended for wearing a Christian T-shirt, but when a Muslim student wore one for his religion, they were told to embrace his.

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There should be no religion in schools. Moral education yes but not religious.

I believe that the other major problem is that we have "no child left behind" Here's a news flash: Not every child has what it takes to go to college. I know that's shocking to some, but it's true. Guess what? We need electricians, plumbers, carpenters and skilled tradesmen. We can't survive without them! It's ok to get your hands dirty to make a living! Be proud you have a honest job!
However, we group those without the capacity to go to college with the bright ones, then throw in some poor birth defected, mentally "challenged" kid on a respirator and a feeding tube who's highest level of communication is grunting and a measured IQ of 60. Then we tell the teacher that they have to teach to the lowest kid in the class and make a test everyone can pass.....with all that extra stimulation competing for the kid's attention....then we wonder why it isn't working.
My son got selected from his gifted and talented program into a special program run by Hopkins (a private high school). He was one of 35 who made it thru nominations, a screening test and an interview. They were told they were the best and brightest 7th graders in the greater New Haven area. Results? They did all of trig in one semester. They start 6 weeks of summer classes Tuesday and expect to make it through calculus before Christmas. We have smart kids - who just need to be challenged. The point is that we need to push those who can learn a little harder so they can excel...

JohnRE said:

There should be no religion in schools. Moral education yes but not religious.

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Without religion, there are no morals.

bill2654 said:

Without religion, there are no morals.

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Hog wash!

JohnRE said:

There should be no religion in schools. Moral education yes but not religious.

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[h=1]Banning Prayer in Public Schools Has Led to America's Demise[/h]By Editorial Staff
Published May 1, 1988
by Gary Bergel
A recent statistical analysis by David Barton graphically illustrates how America has plummeted from righteous living, prosperity and success in the last quarter century. Consider the following chart compiled from his study, America: To Pray or Not to Pray. 1
As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. On June 25, l962, 39 million students were forbidden to do what they and their predecessors had been doing since the founding of our nation – publicly calling upon the name of the Lord at the beginning of each school day.
The New York school children which prompted the Engel vs. Vitale ruling had simply prayed: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee and beg Thy blessing over us, our parents, our teachers and our nation.”
America has experienced radical decline in each of the four areas which the children’s prayer touched upon: youth, family, education, national life. Minor recovery has occurred only since 1980 when the election of President Reagan brought forth a renewed emphasis on “traditional” values.
The removal of prayer from our schools was a violation of the third commandment which commands us “not to take the name of the Lord in vain.” By the judicial act of forbidding invocation, the Court audaciously elevated a secularized system of education beyond the authority, reach and blessing of God Himself. Worse than taking the Lord’s sacred name in vain is treating it with contempt, denying it rightful place and stripping it from public use and even from the lips of children. Jesus’ own expressed desire, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them” was also violated by these judges, many of whom were raised in Christian homes.
But there was actually a gross violation of the third commandment by the U.S. Supreme Court a year earlier. A ruling in 1961, I believe, paved the way for stripping the Lord’s name from our children’s lips. In Torcaso vs. Watkins, the court overruled a provision of the Maryland Constitution which made “a declaration of belief in the existence of God” mandatory for holding public office.
Roy R. Torcaso, a Maryland resident and an avowed atheist, was refused a notary public commission when he would not subscribe to the required oath. His case was brought before the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court ruled to sanction atheism and overruled the Maryland Constitution.
Rev. T. Robert Ingram records columnist Felix Morley’s shrewd observations on this 1961 ruling in his study, The World Under God’s Law. Mr. Morley, writing in the Nation’s Business September 1961, pointed out “the absurdity of having an official administer to others oaths in the sanctity of which he does not himself believe.”
The effect of this ruling is not just to eat away at the sacredness of the name of God, but to eliminate the sacredness and thereby the substance of the oath itself. With solemn oaths and binding contracts between individuals removed, the state eventually sits where God ought, and only the state’s cause is held valid. There is no longer an absolute and just legal basis for judging “between a man and his brother,” much less a man and his neighbor (Deuteronomy 1:16, 17). All affairs of life become subject to state, rather than individual control.
Rev. Ingram documents and points out that “a broad, organized attack reaching into high places is under way to remove the third commandment from legal standing in the United States and throughout the world.” He points out that, “the World Court, for example, presumably the new fountain of justice, or a prototype of the socialist dream of world government, has no provision for’taking the name of God’ – no oath.” The Socialist agenda of world domination makes no place for solemn “swearing” between individuals.
Jesus’ teaching on oath-taking recorded in Matthew 5:33-37, while often misinterpreted, is actually a strong affirmation of the third commandment and a clear warning that “the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain” (Exodus 20:7).
Besides forbidding perjury, (calling God to witness a lie) and false swearing, this passage also forbids all rash and unnecessary swearing, and especially warns against promissory oaths – that require a performance. Our “Yes” should be “Yes,” and our “No” should mean “No.” If understood, our word uttered in integrity should of itself be a sufficient and proper bond.
The “evangelical prophet,” Oswald Chambers (1874 – 1917), saw that the empty promises made by so many Christians actually result in great “spiritual leakage.” He admonished his followers: “Always beware of vowing, it is a risky thing. If you promise to do a thing and don’t do it, it means the weakening of your moral nature. We are all so glib in the way we promise and don’t perform and never realize that it is sapping our moral energy.“2
Think then, what happens to a nation rife with perjury, broken marriage covenants, unforgiveness, cults with demonic covenants, extortion, bribery, libel, slander, profanity, hypocrisy, idle talk, and lawsuits initiated solely for revenge and personal gain. We are living witnesses that truly “the Lord does not hold such a nation guiltless.”
Regardless of how the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled, we must each, as Oswald Chambers declared, realize that “God’s laws are not watered down to suit anyone; if God did that He would cease to be God. The moral law never alters for the noblest or the weakest; it remains abidingly and eternally the same.”
After more than 25 years of severe moral decline is it not time to repent, reverence the name of the Lord, reinstitute and keep the third commandment?
1 David Barton, America: To Pray or Not to Pray, (Aledo, TX: Speciality Research Associates).
2 Oswald Chambers, The Best From All His Books, (Oliver-Nelson Books, 1987).

Wait, wait, wait...
We've all been wrong...
...
...
It's because so many high schools don't have rocketry programs!

My tongue is beginning to bleed, and I don't even have teeth!

bill2654 said:

Without religion, there are no morals.

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That's simply not true. Some of my atheist friends have a much better moral compass than some of my religious friends. It's possible for a person to believe in the moralistic teachings of Christ without believing His religious teachings. Morality comes from philosophy, which may or may not have religious beginnings.

CzTeacherMan said:

Wait, wait, wait...
We've all been wrong...
...
...
It's because so many high schools don't have rocketry programs!

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Our high school doesn't have a rocketry program, but the Astronomy teacher does an end-of-year rocketry unit. One of my coworkers' sons came to me for advice. It was really cool to be able to help him out.

Our K-8 (a small rural school) has a rocketry program for little kids (LPR Estes/Quest/Custom rockets) and a more serious rocketry club I started for the older kids. Our first project was a 4" all-fiberglass rocket with a 54mm motor mount. Our second project was a 12.75" carbon fiber upscale of the Binder Design Dragonfly with a 98mm motor mount. Next year we plan to do a 98mm minimum diameter mach-busting CF rocket.

bill2654 said:

Without religion, there are no morals.

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What a crock. This is the sort of statement that gets religion a bad name.

bill2654 said:

Without religion, there are no morals.

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Not necessarily true, morals are a function of proper education by those around a developing child. The reason it seems like morals and religion are tied together is that many religions TEACH moral values. However in my opinion while the moral values being taught are very important, nearly all religions fail to teach TOLERANCE of other views than their own.