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  1. #1
    Join Date
    7th August 2011
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    Penfield, NY
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    Going for 100,000 Feet

    Many of you followed the thread of my Rocketry Warehouse Terminator as I went through the build and then successfully flew it to achieve my Level 3 certification. For many, this is a goal that allows them to fly big and glorious rockets with fantastic displays of airpower and recovery systems.

    I wanted my L3 for a different reason. I wanted to fly a rocket to 100,000' at least once during my lifetime. But here's the thing...I don't have a huge budget, so I need to do it on M power. It's possible. The math works. But I will have one shot at this... so I need to get it right the first time.

    So this will be a very long-term thread. There will be gaps as I work on other projects, and then there will be flurries of activity. This will not be a single rocket build, but rather a series of builds to test designs, materials, build techniques, staging ideas, and more. Along the way, I hope to set some records. It would be kind of cool to be in the record book at least once in a while.

    Ideas and insight are very welcome as I work through this challenge. I will need thought into electronics that can handle 100,000'+ altitudes, advanced recovery techniques with small transmitters, fitting in redundant electronics, transmitters, and a video cameras inside minimum diameter airframes, high-temp epoxy, and a whole bunch of stuff I probably haven't thought about.

    But for now, I should start at the very beginning. A very good place to start. When you read you begin with "A B C." When you sing you begin with "Do Re Mi."

    So my first design will be Do. The first note of the scale. The purpose of this design is to test two minimum diameter stages and determine these critical elements:
    1. Can the motor serve as a coupler to hold stages together?
    2. Can very thin telephone wire, epoxied to the outside of the airframe, be enough to ignite the sustainer motor?

    Do will be first tested as a single stage to ensure that the sustainer is stable. It will fly on 6-grain 24mm G motors. Because it will ultimately push Mach 2, it will be too heavy to break the TRA single altitude G record. BUT, It will then attempt the H staged record. Then later the I staged record. Then possibly the J staged records. This will challenge the build techniques because with a full 640 NS, Do will go well past Mach 1.5, and with a full 1,280 NS, it will punch past Mach 2.

    So this is Do set up with a CTI H123 booster and a G65 sustainer. Combined it is just under 320 NS, so it should qualify as an H-powered altitude record setter.

    What do you think?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    31st May 2016
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    Nashvegas
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    40
    Very very cool. How will you separate the booster from sustainer on Do?


  3. #3
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    30th January 2016
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    US > OK > NE
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    I think this will be awesome to watch-n-learn!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    7th August 2011
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    Separation will occur with electronics in the booster. I will use motor deploy for the booster chute. The sustainer will need wire leads expoxied along the airframe then extending into the motor. The igniter will be soldered to these leads.
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    14th March 2015
    Posts
    61
    Oh, I'm definitely watching too. I've dreamed of a 100k buster myself -- nowhere close, at the moment. But maybe sometime. I like the way you are thinking, starting with small designs to test minimal design questions and then to sneak up on the goal.

    Best of luck!

    Martin Jay McKee
    Level 1 ( Fall 2015 ): Madcow Rocketry Big Fizz - X ( kitbash ), Cesaroni H225
    Level 2 ( Summer 2016 ): Fish out of Water ( scratch-built ), Cesaroni J357

  6. #6
    Join Date
    18th March 2012
    Location
    Oregon City. OR
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeebeeE View Post
    1. Can the motor serve as a coupler to hold stages together?
    You could use a snap ring case, remove the thrust ring from the outside, and either friction fit the motor, or use one of the foreward retention bulkheads.
    Rob Appleton
    "That Crazy Brit"

    - - -
    Team Numb
    -exploring the possibilities-
    L3 - TRA 13815 - NAR 87999

  7. #7
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    7th August 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvage-1 View Post
    You could use a snap ring case, remove the thrust ring from the outside, and either friction fit the motor, or use one of the foreward retention bulkheads.
    I was thinking that. For the smaller CTI motors that have an aft ring, I could also fabricate a ring that screws into the threads but does not have a thrust ring. Do will have a motor block to hold the 24mm motor in place and then be friction fit.
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    21st January 2009
    Location
    Glendale, Arizona
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    Here is a picture of a 2.5" M that was used as a coupler. I had two motor diameters length into the transition. Many will tell you that one caliber is all that is needed but two makes everything less wobbly.
    I would use larger fins on the booster. They will give a straighter launch and the drag for the few seconds the booster is attached men's little compared to off vertical. Weather cocking is not an issue, if it is that windy you will not be launching to 100k.

    Mark

    Yea, it's bent. It fell a really long way.

    http://www.ahpra.org/UPPERTB2%20r.JPG

  9. #9
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Posts
    1,804
    It would be much better to put the wires inside the airframe.

    Jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    Join Date
    7th August 2011
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    Do you use a flat wire?
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    18th March 2012
    Location
    Oregon City. OR
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    I think that is flat speaker wire that he is using. Nice idea!!
    http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Ghost-A.../dp/B005SUM1PO
    Rob Appleton
    "That Crazy Brit"

    - - -
    Team Numb
    -exploring the possibilities-
    L3 - TRA 13815 - NAR 87999

  12. #12
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Posts
    1,804
    This is the stuff. If you end up going this route at some point, contact me for details. I've learned a few tricks ...

    http://taperwire.com/speakerwire.htm

    Jim

  13. #13
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Portland, OR
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    1,546
    HEI (Head End Ignition) makes things so much easier.
    Also, admittedly somewhat expensive, so does using MARSANET electronics.
    Fred Azinger

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredA View Post
    HEI (Head End Ignition) makes things so much easier.
    Also, admittedly somewhat expensive, so does using MARSANET electronics.
    Remove smoke charge, thread ignitor through smoke well and epoxy seal the smoke well shut inside and out. I know that I can thread an ignitor through the 29mm smoke well, dont know about the 24mm.
    If he is using CTi 24mm, this simple idea may work since the forward closure is throw away anyhow.
    It would though change it to 'EX', as would using a rear closure that isn't the one that came with the motor (altering motors)
    Rob Appleton
    "That Crazy Brit"

    - - -
    Team Numb
    -exploring the possibilities-
    L3 - TRA 13815 - NAR 87999

  15. #15
    Join Date
    13th August 2014
    Posts
    784
    Quote Originally Posted by Salvage-1 View Post
    Remove smoke charge, thread ignitor through smoke well and epoxy seal the smoke well shut inside and out. I know that I can thread an ignitor through the 29mm smoke well, dont know about the 24mm.
    If he is using CTi 24mm, this simple idea may work since the forward closure is throw away anyhow.
    It would though change it to 'EX', as would using a rear closure that isn't the one that came with the motor (altering motors)
    There was a very long debate a while back about whether modifying commercial motors qualified as ex or was just not allowed. I don't want to rehash it, only to warn anyone doing so to do some research before hand.
    -Brian Schwartz
    LiquidFyre Rocketry
    https://www.LiquidFyre-Rocketry.com
    TRA #15327 L2



    If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    22nd August 2015
    Location
    Rhode Island
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    1,062
    If I could subscribe twice to this thread, I would do it.

    Good luck!
    NAR #100940, RIMRA & CMASS
    L1 - 4/17/16, Tyrannosaur (by Binder Design), Loki H144
    L2 - 8/19/17, Terrordactyl (by Binder Design), CTI J250

  17. #17
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
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    Butte, MT
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDB View Post
    If I could subscribe twice to this thread, I would do it.

    Good luck!
    Yeah, I don't want to miss the chance to learn from Mark Clark and Jim Jarvis, specifically, and from nearly everybody else's experience and questions. I've never met a person I couldn't learn something from.
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  18. #18
    Join Date
    31st January 2016
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    East Tennessee
    Posts
    38
    This is going to be great - subscribed
    NAR#101617
    HPR Cert. Level 2 - 5/29/16
    Thanks to Chris' Rocket Supplies for the help and the engines to make it all possible.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    7th August 2011
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    Penfield, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvage-1 View Post
    Remove smoke charge, thread ignitor through smoke well and epoxy seal the smoke well shut inside and out. I know that I can thread an ignitor through the 29mm smoke well, dont know about the 24mm.
    If he is using CTi 24mm, this simple idea may work since the forward closure is throw away anyhow.
    It would though change it to 'EX', as would using a rear closure that isn't the one that came with the motor (altering motors)
    I imagine, drilling out the hole a little could be done if necessary. This idea can work with 24mm - 38mm motors which I have no problem friction fitting. The 100K design uses a 54mm sustainer and also I would want some more positive retention. Using this method would mean not being able to have an internal motor retainer. The other option would be to glue the case into the airframe.
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  20. #20
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    7th August 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenex View Post
    There was a very long debate a while back about whether modifying commercial motors qualified as ex or was just not allowed. I don't want to rehash it, only to warn anyone doing so to do some research before hand.
    The closure comes with the case in 24 and 29mm motors. Is there an issue about making alterations to the motor case? I would use commercial reloads. What I need in the sustainer is an aft closure that does not act like a thrust ring as well. It needs to be the same diameter as the case. An internal motor block forward of the motor would prevent the motor from going through the rocket so that the thrust ring on the closure would be unnecessary.

    This is only an issue for the sustainer. The booster can still have a thrust ring.
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredA View Post
    HEI (Head End Ignition) makes things so much easier.
    Also, admittedly somewhat expensive, so does using MARSANET electronics.
    Up until the final flight, MARSA electronics are too large. For the 100K flight it makes perfect sense because the newer versions will fit into a 54mm airframe, and some of the modular add-ons John makes would be ideal for this.
    Evan Brown
    NAR# 92851, TRA# 14596, Level 3

    I don't brag...but I DO state the facts.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    5th December 2013
    Location
    MD
    Posts
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    I don't know enough to be of help to you, but I wish you every success. And I'll be able to say, "I knew him when...."

    John S. ---- NAR #96911 ---- TRA #15253 ---- MDRA #067 ---- BARC #028
    L1, 3/15/14: Aerotech Sumo, CTI H133BS
    L2, 6/21/14: Giant Leap Vertical Assault, CTI J240RL
    L3, 3/12/16: MAC Performance Radial Flyer, CTI M1101WH
    Altitude: 13,028', L3 flight; Speed: Mach ???, L3 flight

  23. #23
    Join Date
    23rd January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeebeeE View Post
    Up until the final flight, MARSA electronics are too large. For the 100K flight it makes perfect sense because the newer versions will fit into a 54mm airframe, and some of the modular add-ons John makes would be ideal for this.
    I will donate electronics for this project.
    John Derimiggio NAR/TRA L3
    MarsaSystems

  24. #24
    Join Date
    13th August 2014
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    784
    Quote Originally Posted by EeebeeE View Post
    The closure comes with the case in 24 and 29mm motors. Is there an issue about making alterations to the motor case? I would use commercial reloads. What I need in the sustainer is an aft closure that does not act like a thrust ring as well. It needs to be the same diameter as the case. An internal motor block forward of the motor would prevent the motor from going through the rocket so that the thrust ring on the closure would be unnecessary.

    This is only an issue for the sustainer. The booster can still have a thrust ring.
    This is the thread it came up in:

    http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=125064
    -Brian Schwartz
    LiquidFyre Rocketry
    https://www.LiquidFyre-Rocketry.com
    TRA #15327 L2



    If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    4th July 2015
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    378
    Quote Originally Posted by jderimig View Post
    I will donate electronics for this project.
    UKRA #1895
    EARS #1329
    L1 6/9/15 Custom built LOC Fantom 438 CTI H125
    L2 3/4/16 Same custom built LOC Fantom w/ DD EXL configuration CTI J410

  26. #26
    Join Date
    15th May 2016
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    1,983
    This looks like fun. This one is over my head, but logistically id take two paths at the same time to get there. One a two stage tank to get used to staging MARSA gear, the other progressively larger two stage MD to get used to those builds.
    David McCann
    Dave's Rockets | My Flights
    URRG |URRF 4| Level 2 | TRA# 14210

  27. #27
    Join Date
    15th May 2016
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    1,983
    Unless someone from TRA specifically says no, I doubt you'll have any issues flying head end at URRG. Id let it fly if I'm LD.
    David McCann
    Dave's Rockets | My Flights
    URRG |URRF 4| Level 2 | TRA# 14210

  28. #28
    Join Date
    25th July 2015
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    Subscribed!
    NAR# 100470
    L1- 10/18/15 LOC IV CTI H163
    L2- 4/16/16 Madcow PAC-3 CTI J285

  29. #29
    Join Date
    7th July 2006
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    SW Ohio
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    Aaaaaannnnndddddd subscribed. Looks like fun!
    Mike
    NAR #86177
    TRA #16435
    L1 with Loc Precision H76 Vulcanite on H73J (2,109') 7/23/06
    L2 with Binder Design Velociraptor on K695R (6,171' @ 716mph) 9/20/15
    L3 with Polecat Aerospace 10" Nike Smoke on M2500T (6,468' @ 556mph) 11/26/16 (RIP 5/26/17 )

    Current Projects:
    Waive Goodbye (design around 18k waiver)

  30. #30
    Join Date
    11th January 2013
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    Old Bridge,,,,,,,,,,,,, New Jersey
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    Quote Originally Posted by jderimig View Post
    I will donate electronics for this project.
    I will donate harnesses for this project......

    Teddy





    www.Onebadhawk.com

    Ted Chernok
    Old Bridge New Jersey
    METRA- BoD- New York..
    URRG- Way upstate New York..
    MDRA- Maryland..
    QCRS- Illinois- Best politicians money can buy ( Tim L. )..
    Kloudbusters- Kansas..
    NAR # 87063
    Tripoli # 14443
    Level 3

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