Getting Back into Rocketry... Again! Ventris and Argent Build

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DanielLW

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I’m getting back into rocketry, again! After flying some of my smaller rockets with my kids, I decided to get some new mid power kits since I crashed my Barracuda on an ejection charge that was 1 second too long. (I drill my delays now) And so when I saw Estes had both their Pro Series II Argent and Ventris on sale for $20 from their website, I just had to order them both.

For these builds, I decided that now that I am 16-ish years older than when I was last into rocketry (36 years old now), I wanted to put a nice finish on these two kits. I’ve had some successes, some not so much, but do have some questions on technique.

So, here is my almost completed Ventris.

DSC_6400s.jpg

For finishing, I wanted to try to get a smooth finish on the fins, but have had limited success. I used this article https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter298.pdf as a guide, but need some tips on the finer points.

Here is a picture of one of my fins.
DSC_6405s.jpg

I had used Elmer’s wood filler (photo), and thinned it down to a milky consistency. I then smeared it on the fins (before attaching to the rocket) with my finger, let it dry, and sanded with 320grit sandpaper. I repeated this process four times. Each time, I sanded back down to the wood grain (perhaps that is where I went wrong?) I then primed with grey primer, sanded, primed with white primer, sanded, primed with grey primer, and this time I tried wet sanding. (perhaps my second mistake?) When I wet sanded, some of the wood grain absorbed the moisture and came up, but after it dried I sanded it back down a little before applying two coats with red gloss. (This is all Rustoleum Painter’s Touch 2X)

My guess is that if I wet sand the glossy paint a bit and do a few more coats, I may be able to achieve a bit of a better finish.

The main thing I am going to try to fix is the seam in the first two body tube parts, which are supposed to be glued together. In hindsight, I should have glued first and then filled, sanded, and painted. But instead, I had to fix it after the fact.

Ventris Seam Before.jpgVentris Seam Sanded.jpg20160527_150755.jpg20160527_152509.jpg20160527_230800.jpg


Speaking of filling, I did fill the spiral grooves with the wood filler, but after sanding, the spirals still showed up through the primer and paint. I had read some other posts on the forum about using “Bondo glazing and spot putty” to fill spirals, followed by a razor blade to carve off the top (while it is still moist) I may try that on a future build.

One other question I had was on how to protect the interior from black powder buildup which can weaken the tube through moisture absorption over time. I recall reading a few places that coating the inside of the tube with thin CA is the answer, but I can’t seem to find the correct phraseology to plug into google to find a “how to” for this technique. What is a good CA product to use for this, and what is a good way to apply it in order to get a nice coat all the way down?

Here’s an example of something new that did work really well for me. Here is a close-up of one of the fins for my Argent. The Tamiya masking tape is a miracle product! It works many orders of magnitudes better than blue painter’s tape. I can’t get over the razor sharp lines produced by Tamiya tape!

Argent Fin.jpgDSC_6429.jpgDSC_6430.jpg

The funny thing is I want to load these $20 rockets with probably $300 worth of electronics! Jolly Logic Chute Release… EggFinder TRS… Mobius Camera… But first I need to get some motors. I still have all my reload hardware, from 18mm to 38mm. I’m thinking of the maiden flights being on an AT F22J. I may be passing through Colorado Springs in the next couple months, so I can pick up some from Apogee, but if I don’t, I may have to have the maiden flight be G powered, as I don’t want to pay Hazmat shipping. (cant they just cut the 29mm F propellant grains in half?)

I’ll update as I get these closer to completion.
 
Welcome back!

It seems you are pretty much on the right track. Sometimes it take some trial and error to determine which products work best for you. Personally, I stay away from Elmer's wood filler on fins since it is water based and has caused my fins to warp a couple of times. Others use it without any problems so it comes down to what works for you. I prefer Midwest Aero Gloss Balsa Fillercoat and Aero Gloss Sanding Sealer on the fins. Put on a coat or two of Balsa Fillercoat on the fins and then a coat or two of Sanding Sealer with some light sanding in between coats. I prefer not to wet sand since it can cause any bare balsa or paper to swell.

The next step would be primer. Generally, I would go with gray, then white primer. If the rocket looks really good then I skip the gray primer. I have been using 400 grit sandpaper with good results. Just sand until you get almost to the original surface. A great tip of Rustoleum 2x paint, is to apply a good first coat and then after letting it dry, sand down the paint with 400 grit sandpaper until all the gloss comes off. You will get a super smooth surface to put the final coat of paint on the rocket. The 2x paint comes out fast so it is important to use some self control. I like to put a nice coat of paint on the rocket, then let it sit for a few minutes. Go over the rocket one more time and if you see some areas that need some more coverage, then hit those areas while being careful of the overspray hitting other parts of the rocket. If done right, you will have a really nice glossy and smooth paint job.

As you discovered, the Tamiya masking tape works great. I like that it comes in the dispenser which keeps any lint form collecting on the edges of the masking tape.

To strengthen the end of the tubes, take a Q tip soaked with some thin CA and run it around the inside edge of each tube. You might need to lightly sand the inside edge if the fit it is now too tight with the CA.

Best regards,
Brian
 
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Welcome back Daniel LW!
Great paint lines on the Argent!

Everybody has their preference on filling grain and finishing.
Years ago I used Sanding Sealer (it's what Estes recommended!) but it stinks and is too expensive now.
I have good luck with the Carpenter's Wood Filler (single coat and sanding) then Duplicolor Primer/Filler (single coat then sanding)
Using the CWF, try not to sand to far down and re-expose the balsa. Leave a very thin skin of CWF on the surface if you can.

I also use CWF in the body tube seams, sand and follow with the primer/filler to fill any of the remaining seam.

Stop by my blog: www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com and do a search under "Balsa Filling" and "Seam Filling" and "Tips"

Here's a few posts to get started -
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2010/09/carpenters-wood-filler-mix-ratios.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/10/sanding-cwf-in-body-tube-seams-tips.html
 
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Wow, if my first builds after doing a 20 year hiatus looked like yours I would be doing a jig. I hope my new Argent turns out as nice as yours did. Keep up the great work. Your extra effort will certainly wow everyone at the field and you can be proud of your efforts. Good luck on your final configuring and your first flights and by all means post some pics or video for all of us to see. Oz
 
I'm big into papering these days, I get more reliable results ant it is way easier. Adds lots of strength to the fins as well (especially balsa fins).
 
Thank you for all the tips! I figured I was sanding too much of the filler off, so now that I have 400 grit sandpaper, I'll try to just sand smooth, rather than sand down to the grain.

I may have to try papering fins on some future builds. That's the first I've heard of it, but it makes sense. I'm not sure what the fin material is on the Argent and Ventris. I don't think it's balsa, but it may be. The wood stock that came with the kits has three layers of wood laminated together, so it is some sort of plywood, but I'm not certain it is balsa plywood.

Also, thanks for the CA tip. I'll have to look for some long Q-tips so I can get the CA all the way down.

My next plan is to join the tubes of my Argent and fill the seam, as I did with the Ventris. I'll include more pictures of that, and I do plan to video flights for both from multiple angles, but it may be a while before I can get my hands on some F22 reloads. I do have a G79 on hand, but I won't do that until I can buy my Chute Release. I also have an H128, but my High Power cert expired with my NAR membership long ago, and while I do have my membership number from back then, I think it may have been too long ago for the NAR to recognize my past cert. That, and I'm not close to a club, so it may be a while before I can get to a waivered launch. (I'm toying with the idea of starting a local NAR chapter) Any of you close to Altus, OK?

I'm off to launch some smaller stuff today. I'll start a new thread in the coming days about that - I have a bunch of old Aerotech B and C reloads that I'm slowly burning through!
 
Thank you for all the tips! I figured I was sanding too much of the filler off, so now that I have 400 grit sandpaper, I'll try to just sand smooth, rather than sand down to the grain.

I may have to try papering fins on some future builds. That's the first I've heard of it, but it makes sense. I'm not sure what the fin material is on the Argent and Ventris. I don't think it's balsa, but it may be. The wood stock that came with the kits has three layers of wood laminated together, so it is some sort of plywood, but I'm not certain it is balsa plywood.

Also, thanks for the CA tip. I'll have to look for some long Q-tips so I can get the CA all the way down.

My next plan is to join the tubes of my Argent and fill the seam, as I did with the Ventris. I'll include more pictures of that, and I do plan to video flights for both from multiple angles, but it may be a while before I can get my hands on some F22 reloads. I do have a G79 on hand, but I won't do that until I can buy my Chute Release. I also have an H128, but my High Power cert expired with my NAR membership long ago, and while I do have my membership number from back then, I think it may have been too long ago for the NAR to recognize my past cert. That, and I'm not close to a club, so it may be a while before I can get to a waivered launch. (I'm toying with the idea of starting a local NAR chapter) Any of you close to Altus, OK?

I'm off to launch some smaller stuff today. I'll start a new thread in the coming days about that - I have a bunch of old Aerotech B and C reloads that I'm slowly burning through!


Welcome to the forums! Let the wallet draining begin...

I have a tutorial on papering fins, and I've papered my L1 bird, as well as all of my PSII kits.

The PSII fins are 1/8 birch ply if IINM, I do know they're ply, I do know they're 1/8" thick, it's the birch part I'm unsure of. It is certainly not balsa.

Instead of CA, some people (Mike Fisher (owner of Binder Design) for example) are "painting" the inside of their cardboard rockets with Minwax Sanding Sealer (water based) for strength. I think it may also be being used for reducing heat/residue wear on the rockets. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ciraptor-Rebuild-Thread&p=1536024#post1536024

Please post lots of pics and vids... I'm currently in China, and I need them to live vicariously
 
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Finally got a chance to launch my Ventris! I have a total of two flights so far. Both flights were on an Aerotech F22.

Openrocket showed me that the F22 would only get my rocket up to marginal speeds by the time it left the rod. And so I purchased an 8' section of 1010 rail, cut the launch lugs off, and installed buttons. The extra 2' and elimination of rod whip gave me a margin I was comfortable with for using the F22.

First flight used motor ejection. Although the F22 had a 7 second delay, it seemed to deploy way early for some reason. (it is the second launch on the below video) I don't have a good altitude from that launch because my EggTimer TX wasn't finished yet.

Second flight was also my first dual deployment flight using an EggTimer Quantum. Flight went well, in spite of a 6.6oz payload that slowed the rocket down and caused it to weathercock just a little bit. Altitude was just 260' according to the Quantum beepout. To make the rocket dual deploy, I put both the quantum and EggFinder TX in the payload section, and ran wires down through the reducer down past the laundry and into a charge that was placed atop the motor. (the motor's ejection well was filled with dog barf and taped to prevent the motor from causing deployment) Edit: A Jolly Logic Chute Release is used for main deployment. (The Quantum is set for Apogee deployment)

Edit: From ground testing, I determined that 1.1 grams of black powder is ideal for deployment.

Next flight will be on an Aerotech G25. After that flight, if I still haven't found my NAR number, I'm going to recert using this rocket and an H42 or 54, whichever I can get available at the launch site.

After that, I decided I like this kit so much that I'm going to upscale it and build a bigger version with a 54mm motor mount with my eyes on long burn I, J (for my level 2 cert) and K motors. I'm thinking I100, J140 (J90 doesn't sim well in terms of velocity off rail), K160, and maybe an L265. (can you tell I like long burn?) After that... 98mm version? We'll see.

[video=youtube;iAhnfqrqubM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAhnfqrqubM[/video]
 
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Good work on upgrade! I love the Pro Series II builder kits, lots of options.
The upscale series sounds really exciting. Someone posted about trying a 10" aft Ventris for their L3, but I haven't heard anything else about it.

You mentioned dual deployment, put said you filled in the motor eject, so I was wondering how you achieved your two events? (pardon my confusion)

I've got a Venris dry-fit behind my couch waiting to get started. I'm going to keep the lugs, and install buttons on the opposite side. The big challenge is turning that fat transition into an altimeter bay for a forward section main deployment after initial motor ejection.

Keep doing cool things!
 
You mentioned dual deployment, put said you filled in the motor eject, so I was wondering how you achieved your two events? (pardon my confusion)

Keep doing cool things!

Sorry, I should have mentioned. I'm using faux dual deployment. Altimeter deployment at apogee, and Jolly Logic Chute Release for main deployment.

For the front section, I cut out the top of the adapter and bottom of the nose cone. This allows for a lot more space to work with. But I can't see making it work for a true dual deployment without elongating the payload bay. If you did that, it would probably work fine with a high thrust F, and most Gs, and certainly any H or I.
 
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I saw a guy that made a fully functional single altimeter bay out of an Argent transition (same part as the Ventris). When I saw that, I knew I could do something similar.
I'm thinking off-center threaded rod, converted Apogee 1.9" sled, chop down the transition shoulders and replace with bulkheads. There's plenty of room on the 2.5 for a small terminal block and a .38 cartridge for ejection. The PSII parachute packs down super small, so, with the cut down transition and nosecone shoulders, there'll be enough room for a z-folded cord and chute. The only hinky thing on my radar is getting the sample holes on the forward side of the transition. I'm predicting airflow along the transition and a short length of the 2" will be too variable for reliable readings
 
I saw a guy that made a fully functional single altimeter bay out of an Argent transition (same part as the Ventris). When I saw that, I knew I could do something similar.
I'm thinking off-center threaded rod, converted Apogee 1.9" sled, chop down the transition shoulders and replace with bulkheads. There's plenty of room on the 2.5 for a small terminal block and a .38 cartridge for ejection. The PSII parachute packs down super small, so, with the cut down transition and nosecone shoulders, there'll be enough room for a z-folded cord and chute. The only hinky thing on my radar is getting the sample holes on the forward side of the transition. I'm predicting airflow along the transition and a short length of the 2" will be too variable for reliable readings

I believe Wayco among others is the one you are referring to, I am also in the process of build an Argent as DD using the transition as the AV bay.
 
WOW - Nice video! Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Forum!
 
[video=youtube;iAhnfqrqubM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAhnfqrqubM[/video]

Nice Video!

I'd send that video over to John Beans (Jolly Logic) as it is a beautiful demonstration of how the JLCR delays the opening of the laundry.
 
spot and glazing putty is designed to be applied between primer coats. makes life easier when one doesn't have to deal with the 'dreaded fuzzies' you get from sanding too deep into paper tubes. lovely video and nice looking rocket.
Rex
 
I believe Wayco among others is the one you are referring to, I am also in the process of build an Argent as DD using the transition as the AV bay.

Actually it was a guy that goes by Kruegon here in the forum.

Back @Daniel; What camera did you use for the under-pad shots? Thats a great liftoff.
 
Actually it was a guy that goes by Kruegon here in the forum.

Back @Daniel; What camera did you use for the under-pad shots? Thats a great liftoff.

The under pad camera was my Galaxy S7 under a piece of scrap plexiglass.
The other "slow mo" camera was my old Galaxy S5. It doesn't do true 240fps, but it does do 120fps. (that's why that video wasn't as good)
The camera I had is a Nikon D5300 with a 70-300 telephoto zoom lens.

When I upscale the ventris, I plan to have a mobius or two. And if my other YouTube venture pans out, I'll probably get a GoPro for better 240fps close-up video from beside the pad.

I'd love to get my hands on a slo mo camera that does higher frame rates, but they get very expensive very quick. Hopefully the next GoPro will have a 480fps mode.
 
I recall reading a few places that coating the inside of the tube with thin CA snip What is a good CA product to use for this, and what is a good way to apply it in order to get a nice coat all the way down?
Hi Daniel. I recently came up with a solution that worked quite well for me. The use of a 1/4" dowel, 1 screw and a cut of foam rubber did the trick. The pic below shows how I assembled it. Any thin CA will work just fine. I use what I get from Kingspor's here in my neck of the woods. Basically you pour enough CA in a disposable plastic vessel big enough to get your foam mop in and saturated. Go at it from both ends of the tube nice and even so you don't miss anything and you may or may not have to do the tube ends as this will probably get those also. Lay sideways to dry. The tubes under my mop were already treated this way and it'll soak through causing those spirals to look bolder. Not to worry though. This did not make them swell. It just made them extra stiff. The inside of my tubes looked like glass and very sturdy.

Schwabb.jpg
 
Better yet, what would you recommend for bulk CA? The tiny bottles sold in WalMart seem ridiculously expensive for what you get... CA is just superglue, right?
 
Gary,
What kind of foam did you use exactly? I assume that after one use it would harden up and need to be replaced?

It does and is only good for one use. The dowel and screw are reusable though. The cool thing is, you don't need a lot of it to make it work. My pieces were about 1/2" thick and about the same size as the tube. There's an upholstery place right across the street from me that gave it to me. It's the foam they refurbish cushions with. They have scraps for days. Here's another kicker. They throw away all those tubes that go inside the fabric rolls. A HPR modelers pot-o-gold, and I have no use for it.....hahaha
 
For ultra thin (if you've never used it, this stuff is like water and you must be *careful* with it): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NI4JWI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20. I'm finding I really only use the thin stuff for treating balsa parts (others may have different experience).

For coating the ends of body tubes, I use plain old medium CA (I think I have a bottle of Loctite I bought at HD), applied with a cotton swab.

Gary, just to clarify, you're using the thin watery stuff for that? I really need to try it when I use thin-walled tubes like BT20 or BT50.
 
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That's all I use for CA anymore. I never use it as a glue. The watery stuff coats the inside and works well on the tube ends also. Medium on the tube ends doesn't soak as well as the thin stuff.
 
A word of caution if you've never used Cyanoacrylate (CA) glue before... The fumes can be very irritating - some modelers have developed an allergy to it after years of use; and it will bond skin to skin instantly (used now in ER's to close up wounds).
 
A word of caution if you've never used Cyanoacrylate (CA) glue before... The fumes can be very irritating - some modelers have developed an allergy to it after years of use; and it will bond skin to skin instantly (used now in ER's to close up wounds).

Especially the thin stuff!!!
 
I was just imagining swabbing at a 3" tube piping all those fumes at my face.
Definitely a facemask job.

Also, to the greatest extent possible, keep the tube pointed away from you, mask or no mask. No need for the tube to act like a fume cannon aimed at your face. You'll need to peek in their periodically to see how things are going, but I'd personally avoid staring in the whole time I worked.
 
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