TLP SAAB RB05 Cruise Missile and Field dart video

I like TLP kits; however their light weight does seem to make them trickier to launch in my experience. Recently I decided to launch a TLP Saab RB05 I had been working on over the winter and so I slapped on some primer and took it to the local club launch. Having read that the Wildman Saab requires what seems like a ton of nose weight, I was surprised that this kit didn't have any notes in the instructions about adding it (maybe the kit came with some clay and I lost it over the winter, but I double-checked the instructions and no note of it was mentioned).

I put in a D12-3 and launched it up and...

[video=youtube;I6C4LKanV2I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6C4LKanV2I&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Looks like a ghost slapped it!

So what do you guys think? Was it insufficient nose weight? Bad motor (just realized that this is very possible)? Maybe covering the fins with SSLP moved the CG back on what is a marginally stable rocket? (Rocket is otherwise stock and only has one coat of primer.) I'll be sure to check and mark the CG going forward.

Damage is that entire tube forward of the fins is crushed, but I think it's fixable.

I found it funny when the announcer (Rick) noted "Just like it's supposed to!" (it is an air-to-ground missile after all). :grin:

At least you shared the video, so thanks for that part.
I have no further comments on why it did what it did.

The directions for TLP Kits go right in the trash.
If you want to see some more epic TLP fails, head on over to rocket reviews to see all the other folks that tried to build them as close to stock as possible.

I used to love them as a brand, but they really are garbage as far as kits go IMO.
Yeah, they are "Builders Kits", but if your a builder, you will only use the kit for inspiration.
I never did any computer sims on my TLP Martel, just built it as common sense would dictate.
They are small enough to balance in your hands, so you can feel how they are going to fly and what kind of thrust curve they need to make them stable off the rail, or rod if you are ballsy enough.

I know you are a builder Ken, so why did you let that happen???

Sorry about the damage...

Did you swing test it prior to flight? Seems like from what Top said, that might be a good idea for anyone building a TLP kit.

K'Tesh said:

Sorry about the damage...

Did you swing test it prior to flight? Seems like from what Top said, that might be a good idea for anyone building a TLP kit.

Click to expand...

And Nose Weight.
%&^* the instructions.
Every rocket with wings needs nose weight.

TopRamen said:

I know you are a builder Ken, so why did you let that happen???

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Good question Top! I usually go with the belief that in general, I should assume that the kit manufacturer knows more about how to get the kit to fly than me...especially on the first flight. So I generally try to build the kit as per instructions and then after the first flight or so modify it to my liking. If I really want to mod it a lot, I would then likely get a second. Of course there are exceptions such as a few kits which I suspect a company's Marketing decided to change the motor despite what R&D/Tech designed it for, but that is usually with the BIG rocket company.

However I'm starting to suspect a bad motor...the boost was good and straight enough, but the rocket suddenly dove down. Usually if it is unstable it would start to do loops or power loop and hit the ground from what I've seen. This one just quickly angled over and then cruised (fairly straight) down to the ground. I've seen other rockets go cruise missile, but usually they don't have speed leaving the pad.

Also I guess flying a TLP kit mostly stock is a sort of challenge to me. :wink:

And one more reason for me to be thankful that I don't fly with a Club.

Was there not an RSO there who handled your rocket at some point?

I'm calling him out for not being able to feel that it was improperly balanced.

What good is an RSO if he can't mindsim a freakin' rocket by handling it!!!!:y:

If an RSO did actually hold it in his hands, and did not know that that was going to happen, you need a new RSO before someone gets hurt.

I can mindsim a Turkey Baster or a 2x4 for heavens sake!

K'Tesh said:

Sorry about the damage...

Did you swing test it prior to flight? Seems like from what Top said, that might be a good idea for anyone building a TLP kit.

Click to expand...

Nope. Unfortunately I was very busy with a few other more important flights and made the mistake of assuming a kit built pretty much stock (as I believe) would fly fine. I had slight doubt, so I should've seen that as a sign to check the CG and swing test. A swing test won't necessarily show that it is stable, but will show if it is unstable.

TopRamen said:

And Nose Weight.
%&^* the instructions.
Every rocket with wings needs nose weight.

Click to expand...

Amen!

KenECoyote said:

Good question Top! I usually go with the belief that in general, I should assume that the kit manufacturer knows more about how to get the kit to fly than me...especially on the first flight. So I generally try to build the kit as per instructions and then after the first flight or so modify it to my liking. If I really want to mod it a lot, I would then likely get a second. Of course there are exceptions such as a few kits which I suspect a company's Marketing decided to change the motor despite what R&D/Tech designed it for, but that is usually with the BIG rocket company.

However I'm starting to suspect a bad motor...the boost was good and straight enough, but the rocket suddenly dove down. Usually if it is unstable it would start to do loops or power loop and hit the ground from what I've seen. This one just quickly angled over and then cruised (fairly straight) down to the ground. I've seen other rockets go cruise missile, but usually they don't have speed leaving the pad.

Also I guess flying a TLP kit mostly stock is a sort of challenge to me. :wink:

Click to expand...

TLP has never even reponded to a single one of my Emails to them, so they can take a hike.
As kits, there stuff only turns off a lot of folks, so I don't get what they are trying to do by doing what they do.

TLP had a lot going for it, but only thanks to folks that knew the kit was crap, and modded the everything out of them like Sodmiester.
He inspired me to do the TLP stuff, but in doing so, he also taught me that basically, you only use the dimensional data and templates, and usually the nose cone.

TLP does NOTHING to promote itself as a brand, and when they are long gone, we will always have there beautiful face cards for the overall length, which is really all we need to make their Kits.

TopRamen said:

And one more reason for me to be thankful that I don't fly with a Club.

Was there not an RSO there who handled your rocket at some point?

I'm calling him out for not being able to feel that it was improperly balanced.

What good is an RSO if he can't mindsim a freakin' rocket by handling it!!!!:y:

If an RSO did actually hold it in his hands, and did not know that that was going to happen, you need a new RSO before someone gets hurt.

I can mindsim a Turkey Baster or a 2x4 for heavens sake!

Click to expand...

Well, to be honest I don't blame the RSO (who wasn't the announcer in the vid btw). I've been flying some experimental stuff, so they knew enough about me and being L2, figured I knew what I was doing with a kit like this. Additionally it was end of the day and there were just a few people were just hanging out watching me. I was on the LP pads all day and had already called a bunch of heads-up flights (including the one just before this) and did have an earlier loop-de-loop on a design which couldn't be simmed (and was actually good on a swing test - been doing a lot of those recently).

So go figure...a bunch of experimental design flights and the one that crashed was a kit! LOL

So honestly, the responsibility came down to me being at the level I'm at and given the circumstances. The rods angled out to the field did their job and got the rocket to hit dirt.

Again, I'm starting to suspect the motor...watch the video closely. Related to this, I've been having some issue with a few A10s recently (unfortunately I got a big order of the same lot) where boost seems weak and ejection late on at least 3 motors and this is in comparison to other A10s I've flown on the same design. Now I no longer ignore the motor as a factor. I contacted Estes about the first issue I had and they were good about replacing and reimbursing. I'll have to see if I can find the D12-3 I used and check the other from the same lot if I can find them.

Without any nose weight, the only fault the motor played was it adding to the weight of the aft end.
A more or less powerful motor of the same weight from the same length of launch guide would have fared the same.

A "Loop-de-Loop"!!!!:y::y:

If one of my rockets did that I'de go see a Doctor.

You club folks are out of control!
Literally!!!

Folks can hate on my building techniques all they want, the proof is in my flights that at least they always go in the EXACT SAME direction they are pointing before the button gets pressed.

I've sometimes thought about maybe attending a club launch, but if I saw something like that, I'de want to be no party to it, and I'de do a face palm and walk away.

TopRamen said:

Without any nose weight, the only fault the motor played was it adding to the weight of the aft end.
A more or less powerful motor of the same weight from the same length of launch guide would have fared the same.

A "Loop-de-Loop"!!!!:y::y:

If one of my rockets did that I'de go see a Doctor.

You club folks are out of control!
Literally!!!

Folks can hate on my building techniques all they want, the proof is in my flights that at least they always go in the EXACT SAME direction they are pointing before the button gets pressed.

I've sometimes thought about maybe attending a club launch, but if I saw something like that, I'de want to be no party to it, and I'de do a face palm and walk away.

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Okay then...I've asked the mods to delete this post since I don't want this to get into club bashing, but I feel that in the meantime I should provide a counterpoint for those reading this thread.

I don't know how one can argue that individual/private launches are safer than club launches with rules and safeguards in effect along with officers with duties overseeing operations...especially when the most accidents and injuries are from individuals IMHO. Just look at the most recent terrible incidents "related" to rocketry and they were individuals possibly thinking they knew what they were doing and had tragic consequences.

I said earlier I like to assume that the manufacturer of a kit knows about the kit better than I do. I always assume that I'm not always smarter or know better than someone else because if I do, I may be more resistant to realizing I may be wrong.

Also if you always want the same predictable flight, you really shouldn't be in rocketry because there are so many factors (weather, motor, construction, user/builder error, pad/rod/rail issues etc.) that you should always expect that something will go wrong...this helps keep us from having accidents. Just look at L2/L3 attempts...you've likely seen enough of them crash or go wrong - I've read of many failed ejections that come in ballistic and I've just read about an L2 which came down in pieces...did those people not know what they were doing? Should we ban L2/L3 attempts along with any HP motor? Should we not let beginners build any rockets since they're not capable of making one safe enough on their first try?

Finally, I've already stated that I've been working on experimental designs and additionally I've done over 170 launches this year so far and and have only really lost one rocket (which landed close, but I couldn't find). I think I'm getting pretty good at launching rockets; however when doing new designs and such, you can't expect every launch to be "perfect"...I aim and strive for it (possibly more than most people since I really beat myself up over each failure); however that wouldn't be realistic in my case and I think in any case in our hobby (or anything else I can think of).

With that, I'm signing out for a while (except for maybe the Summer Contest ). Everyone enjoy rocketry and always aim for safety. Please let my video be a reminder that things can always go wrong. We're humans and we're imperfect creatures.

*QUICK UPDATE* - Just did a swing test with a D12-5 in the tail (ran out of D12-3 and D12-5 is actually a bit heavier) and it did swing straight.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but yes, I do always want a safe, predictable flight, every time.
I choose my launch window, so I am not forced to contend with weather, or fly on some clubs schedule, which might mean flying in less than perfect weather.

I'm sincerely sorry that I upset you, but I really feel strongly about safety, so just like Micromiester busts my ass for my build techniques, I have to be critical of what some would consider safe flight characteristics.

There are reasons I don't fly very often, but when I do, they always go straight up, and if they are even going to twist slightly, I like to predict that beforehand too, as I did with my TLP Indigo.

I may be a very boring flyer, but that's just how I am, and I'm not here to impress anyone, just enjoy a safe hobby.


Anyhow, with all that said, I'de like to ask if there are any clubs out there that do have a safe and straight flight record similar to mine???

Do all clubs have cruise missiles, lawn darts and "Loop-de-Loops"???
Is that "Par for the course" at every club launch?

Surely there must be a club somewhere where everyone is very boring like me, and put too much time into building to let there rockets engage in aerial acrobatic shenanigans???

That rocket was stable when it launched and when it nosed in. It looked underpowered, possibly even nose heavy to me. It underwent a course change, which could be a motor problem or a wind shear problem. It's something to learn from, not go on a rant over.
Almost every club I've flown at takes safety very seriously, but all an RSO has to go by is experience, thrust to weight ratio, marked Cp, measured Cg, and trust in the flyer. If that's the what you mean by mindsim, congrats. If you claim some Jedi ability, it's a wonder more people don't avoid posting.

That looked like a fine LPR set up to me and the rocket was stable off the rod, no safety issues I see, just a bad flight and those happen. It did quite a nose dive.

Some TLP kits are not great fliers on a D12-3 and I would put the Saab into that category. This is the one with the big witches hat on the nose cone. I have built this one stock and flown it on a D12 3 a few times. I do not have my notes in front of me but I do remember it did not fly great on the D12 3, a bit under powered and a bit wobbly. It is hard to get that big hat completely straight on the nose. Beyond that a fin might have been out of alignment, it hit some wind, got a bit bound on the rod, who knows. Probably a combination of factors lead to the lawn dart. It did look under powered and I have experienced some weak D motors in the past. Label paper weighs next to nothing so that should not have moved the CG back enough.

I would replace the tube, get every thing straight, push some modeling clay and BB's into the nose cone. Get an SU E15 and see if you can get a good TLP flight.