Altimeter Three Holes

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dford

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I was reading about installation of altimeter three. Says to drill three small holes to equalize pressure within the body tube for accurate altimeter reading.
Do these holes effect flight performance and are there any adjustments needed with fitting of the nose cone? I.E. a looser nose cone considering less BP force will be placed on recovery rather dispersed out the holes?
Anyone have Alt. 3 with more input on the matter?
Do all altimeters require airframe holes for better reading? Static ports...
 
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I was reading about installation of altimeter three. Says to drill three small holes to equalize pressure within the body tube for accurate altimeter reading.
Do these holes effect flight performance and are there any adjustments needed with fitting of the nose cone? I.E. a looser nose cone considering less BP force will be placed on recovery rather dispersed out the holes?
Anyone have Alt. 3 with more input on the matter?
Do all altimeters require airframe holes for better reading? Static ports...

The three holes are called Static Ports, and are required for all (afaik) Barometric sensing altimeters, the holes have little/no effect on flight performance. Friction fit the nose cone normally, and ground testing is always a good idea to make sure the ejection charge is sufficient, but the static ports won't really have a major effect on ejection gases either (some but not much). The ports need to be sized properly per the manufacturers formula or recommendation. Make sure the holes are at least one body diameter (one caliber) below the nose cone to airframe joint, or below the nose cones coupler, the reason for the distance below the nose cone body joint is to keep the static ports away from as much turbulent airflow as possible.
 
It seems like you are talking about two different things. The static ports for a barometric altimeter controlling deployment is put in place to vent the avionics bay (av-bay) and not in the payload bad. Ejection charges should not pressurize the av-bay so any nose cone fit issues would not be affected by the static ports. You also wouldn't need an Altimeter Three in this case since your DD controlling altimeter can do the same function.

On the other hand, if you are using an Altimeter Three which from my understanding is just a recording altimeter and does not control ejection, than that could be attached to the base of the nose cone in the altimeter bay. To get a accurate recording of the altitude values as the rocket climbs, the bay would need to be vented to the outside. If you just want a max altitude reading, then you can skip the vents.
If you do use the vent holes, they should not affect the ejection of the nose cone or recovery system as long as they are near the top of the payload bay and not overly large. I don't believe being near the transition is critical since this is just a sensing altimeter and not a recovery controlling device.
 
I'm strongly considering getting a chute release and Alt 3 for pretty much everything I will be flying without avionics I can fit it in to. It's been about twenty years since I flew on my parents dollar and now I'm looking into more options, my own designs and becoming certified. CR and A3 from what I understand can get me to L2 cert I just don't like the idea of having small holes in all my vehicles nessarily.

Static ports for an actual AV bay make more sense to me. I wonder how interchangeable AV bays are from rocket to rocket once necessary. Same diameter I assume. DD will be sweet. I already ordered ematches for a good deal. Wont use em for a while, all in good time.
 
I'm strongly considering getting a chute release and Alt 3 for pretty much everything I will be flying without avionics I can fit it in to. It's been about twenty years since I flew on my parents dollar and now I'm looking into more options, my own designs and becoming certified. CR and A3 from what I understand can get me to L2 cert I just don't like the idea of having small holes in all my vehicles nessarily.

Static ports for an actual AV bay make more sense to me. I wonder how interchangeable AV bays are from rocket to rocket once necessary. Same diameter I assume. DD will be sweet. I already ordered ematches for a good deal. Wont use em for a while, all in good time.

If you can standardize your AvBay design and rocket designs then the AvBay can be transferred from one rocket to another, there are also methods of making a small AvBay and fitting it inside a larger "adapter" for another airframe, for example a 38mm AvBay fitted into a 4" AvBay tube, the design is somewhat complicated but it can be done.
 
If you can standardize your AvBay design and rocket designs then the AvBay can be transferred from one rocket to another, there are also methods of making a small AvBay and fitting it inside a larger "adapter" for another airframe, for example a 38mm AvBay fitted into a 4" AvBay tube, the design is somewhat complicated but it can be done.

The design doesn't have to be complicated. You could use a narrow sled (narrow enough to fit inside your smallest diameter rocket) that is mounted on one all-thread to hold your battery and altimeter. It just needs to be mounted so that the sides of the sled butt up against the inside of the altimeter bay to keep it from turning. Or mount some blocks on one or both av bay lids to prevent turning.
 
The design doesn't have to be complicated. You could use a narrow sled (narrow enough to fit inside your smallest diameter rocket) that is mounted on one all-thread to hold your battery and altimeter. It just needs to be mounted so that the sides of the sled butt up against the inside of the altimeter bay to keep it from turning. Or mount some blocks on one or both av bay lids to prevent turning.

I just spaced my threaded rod on the 3" and 4" bays to match the sled I built for the 2" bay. The same sled just drops into all three bays then. I use stiff blocks of foam as spacers in the longer bays to keep the sled from sliding forward and aft.
Lots of ways to make an altimeter interchangeable with different rockets.
 
I drilled holes in a number of my rockets for my Altimeter Two. The holes are pretty darn small, such as 1/16th of an inch. At that size they just don't have much of an impact on the rocket, ejection charge, etc. Touch the holes up with a little superglue and then sand them to get rid of any fuzz. The fuzz can impede air flow and cause dubious readings on the altimeter. I'm a big fan of the Jolly Logic products.
 
I drilled holes in a number of my rockets for my Altimeter Two. The holes are pretty darn small, such as 1/16th of an inch. At that size they just don't have much of an impact on the rocket, ejection charge, etc. Touch the holes up with a little superglue and then sand them to get rid of any fuzz. The fuzz can impede air flow and cause dubious readings on the altimeter. I'm a big fan of the Jolly Logic products.

The holes just seem like an eye sore on smaller rockets. Static ports on high power composite are legitimate. But wuddya do? Maybe I'll like them. Maybe use them for display hook mounts...
 
I use A3, JLCR, and I use nosecone av bays in sport sized rockets. 1/8" vent hole in the BT is normal and should be used. Three holes into nosecone as static ports works fine and is used for screw switches. They look a little larger on smaller rockets, but meh... zero effect on flight
 
I drilled holes in a number of my rockets for my Altimeter Two. The holes are pretty darn small, such as 1/16th of an inch. At that size they just don't have much of an impact on the rocket, ejection charge, etc. Touch the holes up with a little superglue and then sand them to get rid of any fuzz. The fuzz can impede air flow and cause dubious readings on the altimeter. I'm a big fan of the Jolly Logic products.

I do this as well, but struggle with the break-through fuzz on the inner wall that happens when the bit pierces the cardboard. Maybe I'm just pushing too hard or worrying about it for no reason? I don't have a picture, so I hope you can tell what I mean...
 
I do this as well, but struggle with the break-through fuzz on the inner wall that happens when the bit pierces the cardboard. Maybe I'm just pushing too hard or worrying about it for no reason? I don't have a picture, so I hope you can tell what I mean...

To get rid of the fuzz, spread some thin CA around the edges of the hole once drilled, allow to harden, then sand lightly with some fine paper. ALL GONE!
 
Or.....cut the holes with the sharpened end of a 3/32 or 1/8 inch brass tube - pressing against a stage coupler inside the body where the holes are going. Makes nice clean holes with little fuzz - if the tube is sharp enough. CA and sanding still is a good idea.
 
Is the hole size related to the size/diameter of the rocket, or is it fixed? The JL manual seems to just say that you need "some holes" but doesn't offer any guidance to how many or how large. I'm looking at using my Altimeter 2 in a variety of rockets, ranging in size from 1.325" diameter to 4". Some are proportionally long, some are short and squat, some have dedicated payload sections that are reduced in size, some have large payload bays, and some will need to have the altimeter above the parachute bundle. So, where do I start?
 
Hole size is related to the volume of the compartment and the number of holes. Use one of the online calculators, it'll get you what you need.
 
OK, well, I guess the nature of my question is: is that sizing universal for all altimeters, or are there specific sizing requirements for the JL products? If I can just use a general online calculator, fine. But I haven't seen anything that states whether or not there are any manufacturer to manufacturer variables that need to be accounted for.
 
Jolly Logic altimeters work well with the recommendations. They are very well made and easy to use.
 
Unless the instruction sheet says 'use my formula and my formula only', and that formula varies from the science as it's generally published and practiced by some of the rocket gods, I'd say that the online calcs pretty much get you well within the size hole that you'll need. Heck, it usually gives you a measurement that's smaller than you would think, especially if you're wanting to use a 4 hole configuration.

In general practice, most people I know round up to the nearest fractional number drill size that's in their tool supply, meaning that we're all pretty much using larger holes than we really need.
 
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OK, well, I guess the nature of my question is: is that sizing universal for all altimeters, or are there specific sizing requirements for the JL products?

It would be universal. All barometric altimeters work the same way, they use a barometric pressure sensing IC to determine the altitude. The venting just ensures that the air pressure inside the bay can match the pressure outside so that an accurate reading can be taken, if you don't have sufficient venting the air can't enter/exit fast enough to keep up with the relative pressure changes and you can get bad readings. You do need to ensure the sensor isn't close to the hole, as the air moving in/out as well as cross-winds could affect the sensor. This is probably less of an issue on the A2/A3 since they're enclosed units (I'm not even sure exactly where the air is meant to flow through the case to get to the sensor, it's clearly not air-tight so I guess it's just through the gaps/seams), so it's harder to blow directly on the sensor. On units where the sensor is exposed they tend not to like direct sunlight either. So the farther the sensor is from the holes the less disturbance (and light) it should see. And the number of holes (as I understand it) is to have an even distribution around the airframe so that cross-winds don't result in a pressure increase/decrease in the bay, but these winds can simply blow through the bay. If you put all 3 holes right next to each other you'd be defeating the purpose of having multiple holes.

If I understand the OP's post it sounds like the A3 is riding in a parachute section of the rocket, so it means more/bigger holes in a section meant to be separated with BP. I'll note that these sensors also don't like being exposed to burning stuff, again the A2/A3's enclosure should help here, but I'd definitely make sure you protect the A3 from the charge as well (put it on the opposite side of the bay from the charge, or along with the chute protector or with its own protector, etc). I think in theory even sudden severe pressure changes can be risky (there's usually a small membrane in these sensors and if you rupture that it won't work right, think of it like blowing out an ear drum), though I'm not sure how a BP charge compares to what they can safely withstand. You will very likely see a spike in the A3's reading when your charge fires (see my example below where I flew my A3 in the parachute section of my Nike Smoke, with a single vent hole, you can definitely see when the motor eject fired), and you do have to strike the balance between sufficient venting for the barometric sensor and too much venting preventing the charge from producing enough pressure to separate your rocket. Definitely ground test, shouldn't be any need to have the A3 in the airframe when you do the test (why risk damaging it on the ground).

Ultimately, I would argue that since the A3 isn't used for deployment (only logging), the accuracy of its reading isn't quite as critical as a deployment altimeter (where a confused reading could result in early or late deployment). So personally I favor the low-side when using my A2/A3 in charge-equipped sections (sizing the hole just to prevent pressure separation during ascent, not to be optional for barometric readings) to ensure there's still sufficient pressure for separation when the charge fires. By the time you reach apogee the pressure isn't changing as fast as the powered ascent portion, so the airframe will have time to equalize pressure and you should get an accurate reading of apogee, you just may get a slower reported ascent (more linear and less of a parabola) if the air takes longer to get out of the tube. But if too much of your BP gasses rush out the vent holes and your rocket doesn't separate you're going to have a bad day. I'll take a less accurate flight log over a lawn dart any day.

FlightGraph.jpg

BTW, I don't understand why the A3 saw a decrease in the altitude around burnout, maybe that was due to the contents of the rocket shifting around or something?
 
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I would think that would be lag while the vent holes equalize as acceleration let's up? Idle speculation.
 
Well, lag should result in a lower reading, because the pressure will be higher. This was a H550ST in a ~6.5lb rocket, top speed seems to have only been around 300mph or less, certainly no mach transitions. Since I had the A3 at the top of the tube (which is a fairly large column of air in a 4" Nike Smoke) I'm wondering if it was actually the air shifting towards the bottom of the rocket, leaving a lower-pressure area near the top. So maybe once the G-forces dropped the air had a chance to move back towards the top of the rocket. I haven't tried overlaying the A3 data with the Eggtimer TRS (which was in the nose section and had its own 3 vent holes to the outside) to see how they compare (if the first slope matches the TRS data or the second slope), though the TRS at least reported a monotonic increase in altitude so it didn't see what the A3 saw, with the two altimeters basically only having a bulkhead between them.

And to further derail the derailment, I will note that this was a H550ST-14A DMS, drilled -4s. That charge event was right at 10s in the log, so that worked out well (compared to some pretty far-off DMS and RMS-EZ delays I've experienced in the past). Also shows that I perhaps should have considered 8s (-6s drill), the sims said 9s ideal so it was right on the fence (the sims also predicted a longer coast time and higher apogee than I got), I opted for later rather than earlier since I've had more instances of early firing with AT delays though I've seen large errors in both directions. Future flights will be electronic eject, I just hadn't wired-up the charge well in time for its first flight. Also great to see that DD flight profile from a rocket that only opens in one spot, hooray for Chute Release!! :)
 
My fuzzy thinking was some sort of venturi effect created while accelerating; did burnout also happen to be top velocity?
 
Will, your artifacts could be "air pistoning", but they are more likely from Bernoulli effects. The holes were probably too close to the slant of the nosecone, and so at speed you generated suction over the holes.
By the way, I know someone who put their holes on the curved surface of a V2 nosecone and generated NEGATIVE altitude during burn.

Ideally you want your holes far enough back that the air can return to flowing straight down the body tube.

Hole size calculators give MINIMUM sizes to allow the air inside to escape and equalize pressure within some error band. Sizes larger than that work better, as long as they don't interfere with something else.

"Real" rockets and planes have static ports. No one used to make them because no one had electronics in their rockets. This is a relatively new thing to do. Once you get used to them, you can make them pretty. And cool. But if you just gash them in at the last moment, yeah, they can be quite homely.
 
Suction over the holes lowering pressure in the body? Wouldn't that make for a higher altitude reading? To get a lower reading you have to drive air into the body tube.
 
Will, your artifacts could be "air pistoning", but they are more likely from Bernoulli effects. The holes were probably too close to the slant of the nosecone, and so at speed you generated suction over the holes.

I don't think so, the A3 was in the rocket body, which had a single hole 19" away from the NC. I couldn't put it much farther away before it would be below the top centering ring. It's the TRS that was in the nose which has 3 holes on the conical part (towards the widest part) and it didn't show any obvious oddities in its profile. I'll pull both into Excel and overlay them to see just how they compare and update this post when I have the data. The A3 altitude seemed to start correcting right when the accelerometer spike stopped in that plot, so it does seem like "air pistoning" (haven't heard that term before) to me.
 
I don't think so, the A3 was in the rocket body, which had a single hole 19" away from the NC. I couldn't put it much farther away before it would be below the top centering ring. It's the TRS that was in the nose which has 3 holes on the conical part (towards the widest part) and it didn't show any obvious oddities in its profile. I'll pull both into Excel and overlay them to see just how they compare and update this post when I have the data. The A3 altitude seemed to start correcting right when the accelerometer spike stopped in that plot, so it does seem like "air pistoning" (haven't heard that term before) to me.

So what did the stack and mounting in the fuselage look like? I'm imagining the altimeter was hanging from the eyebolt above your bundled parachute?

Helps to imagine what happens during boost: The high acceleration squishes your chute and blanket down very quickly, and a parachute being crammed down is even more dramatic than just the air mass being pulled down due to its own inertia.

Also, it's probably more correct to say that the pressure distortion stops sometime at or just after burnout. There's an interesting analysis you can do by showing y-accel (if it was hanging vertically) and altitude. Zoom in to where y-accel falls off. "Burnout" occurs when y-accel crosses back below 1G (at 0g it's actually slowing 1G). But you should see it continue and go very negative. That's drag deceleration. What would be interesting to see is if the distortion stops as the motor loses thrust, keeps going until burnout, or lags a bit (as velocity drops off). Early drop off means pistoning (acceleration-related), lagging drop off means venturi/Bernoulli (velocity-related).
 
So what did the stack and mounting in the fuselage look like? I'm imagining the altimeter was hanging from the eyebolt above your bundled parachute?

See picture. The A3 was wrapped in the upper chute protector rather than out as shown in this picture, but this shows the size of the things and their relative positioning. The A3, drogue chute and protector were directly attached to the NC's U-bolt, so it already would have been dangling and wouldn't have really moved during lift-off. The main is also very loose in this airframe (when held cinched by the Chute Release), so it would have been resting on the motor at the bottom of the rocket, the MMT ends a bit below the rail button that shows in the picture. Surely would have 'compressed' a bit during the 24+G acceleration, but wouldn't have moved significantly. I'm debating adding a centering ring about mid-way up to create a 'shelf' for the main chute bundle to rest on, to help keep the Cg forward on this rocket since it can be pretty marginal on some of the motors I'd like to fly, but right now it's open all the way to the motor mount, which ends a bit below the rail button in this picture.

P5270001.jpg

Also, it's probably more correct to say that the pressure distortion stops sometime at or just after burnout. There's an interesting analysis you can do by showing y-accel (if it was hanging vertically) and altitude. Zoom in to where y-accel falls off. "Burnout" occurs when y-accel crosses back below 1G (at 0g it's actually slowing 1G). But you should see it continue and go very negative. That's drag deceleration. What would be interesting to see is if the distortion stops as the motor loses thrust, keeps going until burnout, or lags a bit (as velocity drops off). Early drop off means pistoning (acceleration-related), lagging drop off means venturi/Bernoulli (velocity-related).

Actually, adding two plots, in this message rather than editing my previous one. First is just the A3 data, both the raw numbers and a graph of it zoomed-in to the ascent portion as you described above. There were a few interesting things, including the initial increase in pressure right when the accelerometer measured acceleration, followed by the next two readings being the same (a bit of a shelf) before things finally start to rise, then the retraction as the G-forces back off and the second rise. Every vertical gridline is an A3 measurement point. Second plot is the A3 vs. TRS comparison, which does show that the A3 data lagged the TRS on the second rise (I had removed the ejection charge 'glitch' from the A3 data in this plot though I left the pressure spike), which I fully suspect is because of the single vent hole and rather large volume of air that would have been working out through it in the A3's bay, vs. the proper ventilation in the TRS's nose cone section (even though it is on the nose where you're not supposed to put vent holes). But getting back to the thread topic it does show that the A3 caught up with the TRS well before apogee even with the lesser venting of the booster section. In the future I plan to mount the A3 in the NC section, tilted on the 45/45/45° angle for maximum accelerometer capability, though the K2045 TCC uses in the Nike Smoke drag-race is still too many G's for the A3 even in this orientation, how's that high-G A3 coming along?? :)

A3_Ascent.jpgA3vsTRS.jpg
 
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You're right about the hole being small and causing the lag that leads up to apogee.
I'm still mulling over the boost-phase distortion. I guess my working theory is still pistoning creating low pressure at the top of the fuselage.
 
I use A3, JLCR, and I use nosecone av bays in sport sized rockets. 1/8" vent hole in the BT is normal and should be used. Three holes into nosecone as static ports works fine and is used for screw switches. They look a little larger on smaller rockets, but meh... zero effect on flight
Can you show me pictures of this?
 

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