Level 1. What now?

The build bug may have bitten me. I started looking at what motors I can now launch with and had a WOOOOoooooooah moment.
Once I got over that, I thought: Realistically, where should I go next? I'm open to suggestions. Someone suggested one of the Wildman minis, which look really cool; I'm open to other ideas, too.

Here are some thoughts I've kicked around:
-Possibly going up to 38mm. With an adapter, I could still use my CTI 3 grain 29mm case, and with a big enough field and a burning desire to do dangerous things, I could get up to 400 n/s with a 3g 38mm case, which is, I think, enough for now.
-Possibly building something fiberglass. As was pointed out in the other thread, I get that there are stouter and better cardboard kits than the $22 Estes PSII kits. This isn't an indictment of those kits; this is "Hey, I'd like to try something new!". NB: Building something OUT OF fiberglass sounds fun and interesting. Hand-laying my own fiberglass sounds messy, dangerous, and expensive. Feel free to quote this post and laugh at me in a year or two when I'm posting questions about which kind of cloth I should be laying down for my L3 build.
-I'm 90% sure I don't want to tackle true dual deploy yet. My Chute Release works great, and when I'm trying to keep an eye on two four-year-olds at the launch site, the last thing I need is more electronics to fiddle with.
-I'd like to keep this reasonably inexpensive. Definitely under $100; I've seen some kits around the $50 mark that look cool.

Suggestions are welcome!!
Thanks.

James

L1 - Estes Argent on CTI H87 IMAX: 2340' 5/15/2016

^-(Did I do that right?) :wink:

Here's a suggestion. Get a MAC Performance kit with a 38mm MMT. The canvas phenolic is sturdy, smooth, epoxies well, and drills cleanly. They really are super. They come with all the parts for the AV bay. All you need to add is your electronics, harnesses and chutes. Mike sells all of his parts separately, too, so if you screw up the AV bay, or misdrill the sled or something, he can send you a new one.

The parts come fit so snugly that it is tempting to want to build one with no glue and see what happens. :wink: Um, don't do that! But they dry fit perfectly. This way you learn build techniques that will apply to every other HPR kit you get.

While you're there, pick up an Aeropack 38/29 adapter. Then you can fly 29mm motors until you are ready to make the jump to 38mm.

Bat-mite said:

Here's a suggestion. Get a MAC Performance kit with a 38mm MMT. The canvas phenolic is sturdy, smooth, epoxies well, and drills cleanly. They really are super. They come with all the parts for the AV bay. All you need to add is your electronics, harnesses and chutes. Mike sells all of his parts separately, too, so if you screw up the AV bay, or misdrill the sled or something, he can send you a new one.

Click to expand...

OK, I know I said under $100, maybe more than a nickel?
Seriously, the two $99.95 kits do look pretty sweet. Hmm, Father's Day is coming up.

Related: So what *is* phenolic tubing, exactly? I did a little googling and I think I get it: Is it like cardboard + cloth + resin? Where fiberglass is cardboard+glass cloth+resin?

James.

Congrats, and prepare to open your wallet!

For fiberglass, based on my own experience

1) Try one of the Rocketry Warehouse 38mm kits, with 29mm MMT. No need to paint, $50-70.
2) Try a Wildman kit from the Sport line - prices around $80. (The Jayhawk comes in at $110, and really needs at least an I, but is one sweet kit! I love mine!)

You can always try the mini line from Wildman, or the 1.6" thinwall from MadCow. Just sim things out first, motor size vs altitude. My daughter's Wild Child Mini flies great on a G, would worry about finding it again if we put an H in there. Same with my MadCow AGM 33 Pike.

With something like the RW Rapton 38, you have the opportunity to move into dual deploy, but can fly engine deploy comfortably as long as you want.

Also, remember that as you move into fiberglass, you will need to start adding your own chutes, recovery harnesses, etc.


If you are going non-fiberglass, LOC Precision has a ton of great kits, as does MadCow. So do lots of other vendors - those are two I can speak to from personal experience.

HPR costs more than the kit. The kit is usually the cheap part.

I built a LOC Precision (another good cardboard brand to consider btw) Hyperloc 835 last year. I picked the kit up from our local vendor on clearance for $80! A total steal!

After epoxy for fillets, a few extra nuts and bolts for the AV bay (this kit actually ships with most of it which is rare), an altimeter (didn't even add a redundant system), a 54mm aeropack retainer, shear pins, self tapping screws, nomex for the harness and chutes, and paint, I think I was somewhere up around $230.

And then I had the audacity to want to fly it. ~$80 for a 54mm 2 grain CTI casing. $72 for the J293 reload. In hindsight, do a Level 2 Cert special for a 54mm casing. And I would order something bigger than the 2-grain. Options are good =)

One flight on a Hyperloc 835 (that was on a really good sale!): $382.

Granted, a lot of that was the cost of admission. I have a few cases I can fly it on now and each additional flight (assuming everything goes well) costs a reload, some BP for ejection, and a 9V.

Just don't go further into high power hoping it will cost $50-100 every time you want another rocket =)

My "next rocket" recommendation would be either LOC precision or Public Missiles. I have flow the Hi-Tech and the Hyperloc from LOC, and the Explorer from PML, with a new scratch build using PML components in the works. Their Quantum Tube is a fun alternative to cardboard or fiberglass, and it makes a super tough rocket.

Good luck =)

Neither fiberglass nor canvas phenolic really has any cardboard. The fiberglass you see in conventional kits (Madcow, Wildman, RW, etc) is typically epoxy+fiberglass cloth, while I think the canvas (it's not really phenolic which has cardboard in it AFAIK) is epoxy+cotton cloth. Both are awesome building materials.

If this is your first larger HPR, I'd lean toward one of the 3" single deploy MAC kits for the reasons mentioned above. Since you specifically don't want to go dual deploy, an MPR38 or Scorpion would both work well in the motor deploy setup available, and take a look at the 4" 3FNC kit too if you like that kind of design (it's also 89.95, so a nice budget kit).

The MAC kits are absolutely fantastic, super light, easy to work with (basically all you need is a Dremel for sanding a few parts, plus your favorite epoxy), and they fly great. I have two and they both fly great.

Just to add more options , there are some great heavier cardboard kits out there. I'm particularly partial to the LOC Mini Magg (got JR L1 on mine, it's my profile pic). It's a short 5.5" cardboard rocket, and depending on nose weight can fly G-J (with no nose weight, your 29mm case would lift it just fine to ~900 on a small H). I've flown mine on everything from a G125RL to an I216 and I540. It's not an altitude rocket (3000' on a full I), but a great durable everyday flyer. The Madcow kits are very nice as well.

Binder design has some nice kits too that are under $100. I used the bat to do my l1 then bought the dual deploy upgrade later and did my l2.

I've never built or flown a Mac Performance kit, price is probably the only reason, but they aren't really that expensive. About the same as a similar sized fiberglass kit. I've had my eye on the MPR 38 for a time now. Madcow has some fiberglass kits that come in under 100 bucks, esp now with Rocketry Warehouse kits populating their site.
Or look at Wildman's Sport line. Your may have to do a little sanding to fit, but it's good practice. They come with 29mm holes, but a call to Tim and I'm sure he will oblige stepping up to 38mm. And when you are ready to stretch it, he sells the stuff for that too.
I think the glass rockets probably weigh a bit more but I don't know that for sure.
The minis are nice but I would suggest a bigger kit where you will have more room inside and out. Good practice on painting as well. The no paint kits usually are only no paint as long as your are spot on with your epoxy.
You can always add dual deploy to almost any rocket.
Had you posted about a week ago, I have a nice fiberglass Wildman 2.6" Patriot I would have let you have for 70 plus shipping. I still have it but, but just ordered 100 bucks worth of stuff to stretch it out to dual deploy. And I'm not even level 1 yet. Lol

Happy spending,
Mike

wildman jr. kits are a lot of fun 38mm motors


The itch , that's the bills escaping the wallet

ActingLikeAKid said:

The build bug may have bitten me. I started looking at what motors I can now launch with and had a WOOOOoooooooah moment.
Hand-laying my own fiberglass sounds messy, dangerous, and expensive. Feel free to quote this post and laugh at me in a year or two when I'm posting questions about which kind of cloth I should be laying down for my L3 build.

Click to expand...

As someone who makes his own fiberglass tubes and plate (and now both out of carbon fiber), it's not really that complicated as long as you do some homework before you dive in. It's only as messy as you are, if you always wear gloves it isn't dangerous, and you will not save a dime over some of the kits that are out there. I have a long term goal of something L3, carbon, and stratospheric, so learning to build completely from scratch made sense. If you do eventually want to get into making your own laminates there are plenty of resources here who can help you.

I'm kind of digging the Public Missiles Small Endeavour. Looks like a cool kit, I like the piston ejection, a challenging build but not stupid-hard.... Thoughts?

ActingLikeAKid said:

I'm kind of digging the Public Missiles Small Endeavour. Looks like a cool kit, I like the piston ejection, a challenging build but not stupid-hard.... Thoughts?

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Building something that grabs your eye and appeals to you is your key to success. If it's the Small Endeavour, go for it! Be awar that with any other style tubing besides FG or canvas, you will need to fill the spiral groove that wraps the tubing. Lots of threads here on how to do that.

If you don't like filling spirals and don't like painting, lots of Rock. Warehouse kits are in colored tubing with no paint required. Try a Formula54. Available at the Madcow site.

Actually one of the things I like about this one is that it uses PML's "Quantum Tube" tubing, which doesn't need filling!

Oh, right.

Love my Small Endeavor ! Flys great on red and blue G's with a 29mm adapter and can handle any H or I motor when you want to air it out. No worries about spirals with quantum tube, very easy to finish. Split fins are cool; get it ! I've got a picture around here somewhere.

You can have a lot of fun flying L-1 rockets. There's no need to hurry up though the levels. Take time and enjoy the trip. Just build what you like and have fun doing it. I have built many fiberglass rockets and now find myself going back to LOC style tubes.

You have lots of requirements so there are many ways to look at options.

What you don't mention is the size of your field. If you have a minimal sized field and don't use electronics, you really want to build rocket that apogee at ~1,500 in a typical wind, and not more than 3000' in a light breeze because you want to recover it in the field. So resist the urge to build and launch minimum diameter HPR if your field isn't really large enough for them simply because you are likely to loose them.

Kits under $100. You will get the biggest bang for the buck with high power fiberboard kits. (What you are calling cardboard.) HP kits have thicker, stronger airframes than Estes rocket simple because most Estes rocket weigh under 1 pound and are flown on less powerful BP motors. High power rocket typically start at ~1 pound and L! rockets can exceed 5 pounds pad weight. They have to be stronger than model rockets to absorb the extra load generated by high thrust motors, higher airspeeds, and higher landing forces due to the rocket weight.

Fiberboard and wood has a density ~0.9 to 1 g/cc, phenolic resin composites with paper, canvas and linen such as XX, CE, LE have densities of ~1.35 g/cc, CF has a density of ~1.5 to 1.6 g/cc and FG rockets have a density of 1.9 to 2.0 g/cc. composites are more expensive than fiberboard but they are stronger. For materials of the same thickness, fiberboard is the lightest, phenolic paper and cloth composites weight about 1/3 more, CF composited weight about 50% more and FG composites are about twice the weight of fiberboard. Weight is one metric that determines the performance of your rocket. The heavier the rocket, the higher thrust and total impulse you need to get the same speed/altitude from your rocket. A simple rule of thumb is that a fiberglass composite rocket will need about 1 impulse class more than a fiberboard rocket for equal performance. In a simple comparison, the propellant will cost twice as much for a FG rocket as compared to a fiberboard rocket. Countering the expense is that a composite rocket is more robust and less likely to suffer damage in transport or hard landing than a fiberboard rocket. Pay me now or pay me later. You will save money on the kits and the motors if you launch fiberboard rockets.

For starters look at 3" to 4" fiberboard kits in the 2 to 4 pound range, and do not overbuild them. Those under 1500 g loaded can be launched as class 1 rockets on a small H motor with acceptable flight characteristics if you do not have a waiver. LOC, PML, Binder, Mad Cow, and many others have fine 3" to 4" fiberboard kits.

Make your rockets with rail guides and use rails not rods that whip. With better initial trajectory control, you have a much better chance of recovering your rocket.

Bob

+1 for what Bob said. You have to learn to fly your field.

I almost always recommend 38mm MMT for L1 rockets because you can fit the full range of H and I motors in 38mm. As Bob mentioned, how big is your field. You should size your rocket, diameter and weight, based on field size the range of flying conditions. If spring is always breezy but you get almost dead calm in the middle of summer, you can get a rocket that will fit both by sizing your rocket and motors. The Madcow 4" Patriot with 38mm MMT would be a good one.

My other advice, forget about G motors for this one. Buy and build something that will fly H and I motors on your field. If you can use a baby H for 500 ft and use a large I on calm days, I think you will be much happier then trying to get a rocket that stretches the MPR/HPR range. The larger the range of motors, the wider the performance envelope and the more compromised the design has to make.

Bottom line, buy and build what you like. Some folks jump from L1 to L2 immediately, other make a gradual climb to the top of L1. What path you take is entirely up to you. What rocket you pick for your next L1 will have a lot to do with what path you want to take.

Good Luck

Try out one of these cool LDRS specials from WM Punisher Spoet..grab an updated nosecone or mmt

My goals after L1 were to do a mile alt and try out some different motors like cStars and long burns ... buy something that facilitates something off the wish list

Kenny

This is a stupid question, but ... I don't have to be going to LDRS to get the drag-race price? $35 for an all-glass rocket is crazy but I won't question it...

ActingLikeAKid said:

This is a stupid question, but ... I don't have to be going to LDRS to get the drag-race price? $35 for an all-glass rocket is crazy but I won't question it...

Click to expand...

I think you can just go to the wildman rocketry website and click it through..

Kenny

ActingLikeAKid said:

This is a stupid question, but ... I don't have to be going to LDRS to get the drag-race price? $35 for an all-glass rocket is crazy but I won't question it...

Click to expand...

Anyone can get one.

Sunday at Camden I flew mine, guess you didn't catch it.
I would recommend the fiberglass nose cone upgrade for the extra 15 bucks. It can be used to dual-deploy [H.E.D. head end deploy] the rocket.

a comment about the PML VHA series; after getting my lv1 I wanted a 2nd hpr bird, so I ordered a PML Black brant vb w/ a 38mm mount...now I wish that I had gone w/ a 29 mm mount. it gets going very nicely on a small H, and keeps right on going right out of sight. I did find that a G67 will keep it within 1700'(which works well where I fly). the 29mm mount would have given me a wider selection of motors. my 4" diameter patriot turned out to be my 'work horse' for 2 - 3 grain motors.
the PML rail guides work nicely and are fairly easy to install.
Rex

Congrats on the Cert 1.

I enjoy scratch building and upscaling... How about upscaling the Estes Goblin to 4" (like me)? Binder's 4" tube is an awesome fit for the MDRM nosecone.

+1 to the Goblin. big Goblins are a crowd pleasers. Loc has nearly everything you need (look for '3.9" parts(Loc uses the inside diameter)) while their 3.9" nose might not be true to scale...it is close enough. Sticker shock has the vinyl graphics.
Rex

imo, whatever ya scratch build should be able to have clustered motors.

blackjack2564 said:

Anyone can get one.

Sunday at Camden I flew mine, guess you didn't catch it.
I would recommend the fiberglass nose cone upgrade for the extra 15 bucks. It can be used to dual-deploy [H.E.D. head end deploy] the rocket.

Click to expand...

I probably missed a lot at Camden. Between my L1 attempt and other launches and stopping the twins from running off/destroying something/walking onto the range, I was pretty distracted What color was it and when did it go up? I might even have a picture of it....

K'Tesh said:

Congrats on the Cert 1.

I enjoy scratch building and upscaling... How about upscaling the Estes Goblin to 4" (like me)? Binder's 4" tube is an awesome fit for the MDRM nosecone.

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Thanks! And you mean something like ...this?

This is not mine, but it's MASSIVE. This was on an L; the owner was debating putting it up on an M. And I'm trying to keep it small for now - my workspace is my dining table, and I don't really have room for wrangling a 4" diameter rocket.
(yes, yes, I know. Phrasing.)

Rex R said:

a comment about the PML VHA series; after getting my lv1 I wanted a 2nd hpr bird, so I ordered a PML Black brant vb w/ a 38mm mount...now I wish that I had gone w/ a 29 mm mount. it gets going very nicely on a small H, and keeps right on going right out of sight. I did find that a G67 will keep it within 1700'(which works well where I fly). the 29mm mount would have given me a wider selection of motors. my 4" diameter patriot turned out to be my 'work horse' for 2 - 3 grain motors.
the PML rail guides work nicely and are fairly easy to install.
Rex

Click to expand...

The field where I'm flying this summer is big-ish (for the East Coast, anyway!) with >2000 feet in any direction. For windier days or smaller launches, it looks like a 29mm adapter would keep it lower.

All that said, the more I look at it, the better the Wildman looks. And there's no need to get the PML tomorrow or anything...

ActingLikeAKid said:

Thanks! And you mean something like ...this?
View attachment 291248
This is not mine, but it's MASSIVE. This was on an L; the owner was debating putting it up on an M. And I'm trying to keep it small for now - my workspace is my dining table, and I don't really have room for wrangling a 4" diameter rocket.
(yes, yes, I know. Phrasing.)

Click to expand...

I may be imagining things, but that looks larger than a 4" OD rocket, and that's not the Estes MDRM nosecone. Oh, and I just checked... It'd only be 44" tall.